Humanity's Greatest Tournament Round 1 Match 6: Midori VS Tsukasa Shishio (GRACE)

[Arnoldstone18]

Pretty sure it was calced lel
Plus you did see what happened to the other 1.48 megajoule level character after getting hit, right?

And I’m saying you can’t compare a real life gun to a fictional gun capable of damaging 1.48 megajoules.

Severely underrating piercing damage here, which is ironic since it’s explicitly what means Tsukasa usually only needs one good hit with his sword.

My brother in Christ Tsukasa’s piercing damage to overcome a 1.6x difference is far better than claiming the gun’s piercing damage would overcome an over 4000x difference.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And I’m saying you can’t compare a real life gun to a fictional gun capable of damaging 1.48 megajoules.

It's literally the same gun
It could be argued since normal humans in YTTD are 9-B then guns are also 9-B, but I don't really see how this would affect this match at all

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It's literally the same gun
It could be argued since normal humans in YTTD are 9-B then guns are also 9-B, but I don't really see how this would affect this match at all

if the APs can different, why assume the speed are as well?

This is why I rarely debate Tier 8-9s.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

if the APs can different, why assume the speed are as well?

"A fired .38 S&W Special bullet at its slowest can go at 270 m/s" This is the lowest speed it can be

 

[RandomGuy2345]

This is why I rarely debate Tier 8-9s.

Hey! Don't insult Tier 8.

Tier 9 is hit or miss, though.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Hey! Don't insult Tier 8.

Tier 9 is hit or miss, though.

Tier 9 is better than Tier 8 tho

 

[RandomGuy2345]

Tier 9 is better than Tier 8 tho

Immaculate cap.

 

[Pikaman]

if the APs can different, why assume the speed are as well?

This is why I rarely debate Tier 8-9s.

We assume everything to be the same unless it’s shown otherwise. In this case speed isn’t shown to be different, but (assuming you don’t buy piercing damage for whatever reason) AP is shown to be different

No matter what way you slice it, that gun will go through Tsukasa like anyone else

 

[Arnoldstone18]

We assume everything to be the same unless it’s shown otherwise. In this case speed isn’t shown to be different, but (assuming you don’t buy piercing damage for whatever reason) AP is shown to be different

No matter what way you slice it, that gun will go through Tsukasa like anyone else

Anyway,

Does this count for anything?

machine guns are typically faster than that hand gun. So can’t it be aim dodged? Wouldn’t this count as a skill?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Come to think of it, wouldn’t that this count as analytical prediction?

 

[Pikaman]

That’s just Tsukasa dodging with his subsonic speed in all likelihood. Speed he doesn’t have here

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That’s just Tsukasa dodging with his subsonic speed in all likelihood. Speed he doesn’t have here

But he knew when to take action

Wouldn't that count for an aim-dodging argument? Like, can't Tsukasa just aim dodge Midori with his 6th sense before he fires?

 

[Pikaman]

He knew when to take cover, but that’s a whole different thing to precisely aim-dodging bullets

 

[Pikaman]

I just don’t see anything Tsukasa has that prevents him just getting shot. He’s not fast enough to dodge it, and it’ll go straight through him like it would any other human, this feels a really clear cut match to me

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah, Tsukasa is Transonic.
However, since Speed is equalized, Tsukasa's combat/movement speed is reduced to Midori's (12.43 m/s) and Midori's gun would remain at 270 m/s
So Midori's bullets are going to be 21.7x faster than Tsukasa, and I'm pretty sure no amount of acrobatics are going to help there
Even the ones with branches would leave Tsukasa open tbh
His durability scales to Q-Taro who's stated to be twice as strong Sara

And about skill:
He's also vastly more skilled than Q-taro who despite literally getting backstabbed with a knife (Which ended up killing him later despite medical help) could knock out the backstabber all while holding back to not kill her
Actually thinking about it, there's no electricity in a Crooked Forest, so it's useless. sad
Guess he can still use The Obstructor's electricty tho

Spoiler: Midori's Traps and Outside Help

Since Midori has no knowledge whatsoever of Tsukasa, how will he set up an appropriate trap? Has Midori ever set up traps outside of the Death Game stuff, much less a forest?

Why is he using dolls, are those dolls not characters? Won't that be considered outside help... Also, this looks more like optional equipment type shit, unlike Tsukasa who has tools in his standard equipment area.

I don't see Midori using dolls as legitimate here

As said earlier, Tsukasa is capable of knowing the exact location of who is sneaking up on him. The feat I am referring to allowed Tsukasa to pinpoint his stalker at 50m without even looking and this match is 40m. Midori himself does not even know where Tsukasa is because the OP said that both characters are away from each other's line of sight.

Since we know that Tsukasa can find Midori first, spotting Midori pointing the gun at him will be easy. So, if we factor in Tsukasa's senses and reflexes, coupled with the limited protection from the trees, on top of the fact that the line of fire from a handgun is straight and narrow as ****, aim dodging becomes easy as hell for Tsukasa.


Tsukasa's skill

Earlier I said I am not good at skill comparison, I will do more research by going through Tsukusa's matches but for now, I will go off this Q&A statistics as a starter

Lets take a look at their martial arts

On their first encounter, Tsukasa stated that Kohaku is a very skillful fighter and would be big name in the martial arts world before easily dominating her. So Kohaku is the baseline. Kinro becomes a very skillful fighter as soon as he starts wearing glasses but Tsukasa easily out skills him in a 3v1. Matsukaze was stated to be the most skilled fighter in his land despite this, the author still rates Tsukasa and Hyoga over him.

So the chain goes like this:

Tsukasa > Hyoga > Matsukaze > Kinro > Kohaku

I will edit this message with more of his skill feats i find out in Tsukasa's past matches.


In conclusion, Tsukasa is capable of approaching Midori first by either sneaking up on him or aim dodging his projectiles. Midori can't use outside help so as soon as they engage in CQC. Tsukasa is more likely to win.

 

[Pikaman]

Since we know that Tsukasa can find Midori first, spotting Midori pointing the gun at him will be easy. So, if we factor in Tsukasa's senses and reflexes, coupled with the limited protection from the trees, on top of the fact that the line of fire from a handgun is straight and narrow as ****, aim dodging becomes easy as hell for Tsukasa.

…except you haven’t shown a single instance of him aim-dodging bullets

He knew when to take cover, but that’s a whole different thing to precisely aim-dodging bullets

 

[Arnoldstone18]

…except you haven’t shown a single instance of him aim-dodging bullets

What are you talking about?

if he literally sees Midora aim the gun at him and he has 6th sense. What is stopping him from simply moving away from the line of sight before the gun it’s fired.

yknow… how a regular human being dodges gun fire?

 

[Pikaman]

if he literally sees Midora aim the gun at him and he has 6th sense. What is stopping him from simply moving away from the line of sight before the gun it’s fired.

What do you mean “move away from the line of sight”?

yknow… how a regular human being dodges gun fire?

… You do realise aim-dodging bullets is a superhuman feat that needs in-canon precedence, right? Humans can’t dodge bullets

 

[Arnoldstone18]

What do you mean “move away from the line of sight”?

Line of fire*

Tsukasa will find Midori before Midori finds him, so Tsukasa will see Midori attempting to take out his gun and pointing it at him. He would obviously use his senses to know when he is about to fire and move out of the way before it’s fired. His sixth sense anticipating gun fire essentially makes him faster than Midori’s reaction to pull the trigger.

… You do realise aim-dodging bullets is a superhuman feat that needs in-canon precedence, right? Humans can’t dodge bullets

According to this

By default, as long as the character can see the source of the attack/projectile (for example, a character having line of sight on a soldier pointing a gun at them), the feat will be considered aim dodging unless one or more of the following conditions are fulfilled:

1. The attack/projectile's path is non-linear and/or unpredictable in such a way that it makes aim dodging by perception impossible. For example, an attack that follows a random path or bends its path in the air. However, previous knowledge of the attack/projectile's pattern will count as aim dodging unless sufficient proof to the contrary can be presented, as the attack could be dodged via prior knowledge instead of reaction. Precognition, future sight, or any ability or skill that help the character predict the attack's path beforehand in any form are also considered as "prior knowledge".

Tsukasa reaction to the machine gun is aim dodging.

He knew when the gun was about to fire using his 6th sense and acted accordingly. By default it’s an aim dodging feat.

 

[Pikaman]

Yeah but from what I can tell Tsukasa didn’t see the line of fire, he just knew a gun was about to be fired because of his sixth sense. He knew nought the trajectory or direction it would head in, hence why he blindly took cover

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Yeah but from what I can tell Tsukasa didn’t see the line of fire, he just knew a gun was about to be fired because of his sixth sense. He knew nought the trajectory or direction it would head in, hence why he blindly took cover

Even though I can make an argument that he did infact see where its coming from, He doesn’t need to see it for it to be considered aim dodging.

That’s why I highlighted the area that states that skills allowing him to anticipate when it’s about to be fired is known as “prior knowledge” so simply moving away from line of fire, right before the trigger is clicked, becomes easy.

If he does see it, that’s even easier. It’s only a handgun after all. The line of fire can easily be evaded before Midori pulls the trigger.

 

[Pikaman]

That’s why I highlighted the area that states that skills allowing him to anticipate when it’s about to be fired is known as “prior knowledge”

Skills allowing him to anticipate the bullet’s line of fire are “prior knowledge”, simply knowing the gun will fire doesn’t cut it

 

[Ciruno_Fortes_(COB)]

I feel like Tsukasa has win cons here but Midori's prep seems much more 'prepared'. So I'm going to have to give it to him. Voting Midori

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Skills allowing him to anticipate the bullet’s line of fire are “prior knowledge”, simply knowing the gun will fire doesn’t cut it

He knows the direction of where the gun is coming from tho. He senses can pick up the fact that its a gun and his senses can locate pinpoint a target with accuracy.

In this match, he would actually be able to literally see Midori point at him. So why can't he just aim dodge it?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I feel like Tsukasa has win cons here but Midori's prep seems much more 'prepared'. So I'm going to have to give it to him. Voting Midori

I already addressed the preparation. Why not wait for his response on that?

The dolls Midori are bringing to battle are actual characters that have profiles and not only that but it doesn't say that he can bring them on his profile or any other trap to the crooked forest. Meanwhile, Tsukasa actually has tools to make traps.

Not to mention they both start the match out of sight of each other as the OP said. And Tsukasa has at least a 50+m range with his senses so he will locate Midori before Midori finds him. Then Tsukasa just sneaks up on him and attacks him cqc or restrain and beat the shit out of him, with piercing damage and so on.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Funny how you guys have so much faith in Midori’s aim with his gun when facing Tsukasa’s maneuverability.

I’m going back to work, and might go to bed. Hopefully I don’t get FRA trained on for reasons that haven’t been addressed.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, I can list all of Midori's traps and tech if that helps

• Put electrified posts on the Gate so the Participants wouldn't be able to hop over it
• Locked the Boxing Ring Room while the Participants where in it and made a contraption that would fill the room with a lava-looking liquid if the puzzle wasn't cleared
• Anticipated that one of the Participants would press the Pressure Plate that would re-activate The Locker Room execution which nearly kills Gin and Hayasaka
• Activated mutiple noise-making objects so the Participants wouldn't be able to track him by listening to his footsteps, which also activated the Library Obstructor
• Used a doll of Keiji's childhood hero to distract him long enough for Midori to push him into a coffin that can cremate right on the spot
• Made both of Ranmaru's Upgrade Parts (The Steam Spray Hand can create smokescreens with steam and The Stun Gun Finger is a stun gun that's located in his finger)

Why is he using dolls, are those dolls not characters? Won't that be considered outside help

All candidates participating in the Death Game (plus Joe) have have multiple humanoid dolls of them made. These dolls are uncannily similar to their human counterparts, but if an AI isn't inserted into the dolls using the AI-Ciever, they're basically statues, and Midori uses these kinds of Dolls as shown with the soccer doll head clip + The Keiji distract thing.

Also the bloodlust sense is really only going to activate when Midori is about to shoot, not when he's looking for Tsukasa, and Midori with his being able "completely rotate his head" and almost having the same agility as Tsukasa should be able to find him first.
And even if Tsukasa does get the jump on him, Immortality type 2 means unless Tsukasa literally slices him in half (Which seems unlikely since Tsukasa thrusts with his sword if anything), Midori will just be able to return the favor, afterall getting closer will just make him an easier target

 

[Pikaman]

He knows the direction of where the gun is coming from tho

That’s still not the same thing as the exact firing line of the gun, and without previous, very explicit feats of aim-dodging bullets, you can’t say he can do it here, especially since he will be MUCH slower in relation to the bullets than he was in literally all of his in-verse bullet dodging feats

 

[Arnoldstone18]

That’s still not the same thing as the exact firing line of the gun, and without previous, very explicit feats of aim-dodging bullets, you can’t say he can do it here, especially since he will be MUCH slower in relation to the bullets than he was in literally all of his in-verse bullet dodging feats

So if Tsukasa literally sees Midori point a gun at him, he wouldn’t ******* move to make it hard for Midori to aim at him and fire the gun? He obviously wouldn’t just stand there lmao.

Why are you so concerned about the speed of the bullets again when my whole argument with you is literally about making it hard for Midori to actually aim at the man. Midori isn’t Chisato. He isn’t some special super marksman with a sniper. This is a fake cop with a ******* handgun up against a skillful acrobatic character that’s the most intellectual character in the verse behind Senku, capable of finding Midori before he finds him and able sense when a gun is about to be fired and you’re telling me this man’s first option wouldn’t be make it hard for his gunman to land a precise shot?

Idk I feel like you’re just being disingenuous at this point. Making aim dodging a handgun such a big deal.

 

[Pikaman]

So if Tsukasa literally sees Midori point a gun at him, he wouldn’t ******* move to make it hard for Midori to aim at him and fire the gun? He obviously wouldn’t just stand there lmao

He can make it harder for Midori by moving about and stuff, in the same way humans can try and make it harder for someone pointing a gun at them to shoot them, but humans still get shot 99% of the time. This bullet is like 22x faster than him, no acrobatics will help with that

 

[Pikaman]

Making aim dodging a handgun such a big deal.

It is a big deal. Without direct, clear evidence of bullets that much faster than Tsukasa being aim-dodged by him, it’s NLF to say he can do so here

 

[Arnoldstone18]

He can make it harder for Midori by moving about and stuff, in the same way humans can try and make it harder for someone pointing a gun at them to shoot them, but humans still get shot 99% of the time. This bullet is like 22x faster than him, no acrobatics will help with that

Again Tsukasa is not trying to dodge a bullet, he’s dodging an aim. So you can stop reminding me that the bullet is 22x faster (especially when Midori we don’t know if Midori is higher than baseline superhuman). It’s not important here. What is important is Tsukasa’s ability to make it hard for Midori to aim at him and he has the skills to do so especially when he has the reflexes to react to when a gun is about to be fired.

It is a big deal. Without direct, clear evidence of bullets that much faster than Tsukasa being aim-dodged by him, it’s NLF to say he can do so here

It is not a big deal. You don’t need evidence to assume by default that a character would instinctively move away from a line of fire of a hand gun and make it hard to be aimed at. He literally reacts to a machine gun he couldn’t see before it starts firing. What makes you think he won’t move out of the way when he literally sees a gun pointed at him.

Anyway I asked staff and Armorchompy agrees with me. Need more opinion from staff?

 

[Pikaman]

It is not a big deal. You don’t need evidence to assume a character would instinctively move away from a line of fire of a hand gun and make it hard to be aimed at.

Your strawman arguments are getting tiring. I am not saying Tsukasa would not try and move out of the way, I’m saying he doesn’t have the abilities needed to do it successfully. Stop twisting my points and leaving me repeating myself

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Your strawman arguments are getting tiring. I am not saying Tsukasa would not try and move out of the way, I’m saying he doesn’t have the abilities needed to do it successfully. Stop twisting my points and leaving me repeating myself

And I’ve been arguing that he actually does have the reflexes for it to be done successfully (the feat is up there even if it’s not an aim dodging feat to you the reflexes are still undeniably there) and I don’t need to show an on panel of him actually aim dodging if the literal ability to logically aim dodge exists.

A hand gun has a very narrow line of fire. Midori has not shown any training whatsoever, only that he’s a fake cop. I’m guessing that’s obvious to you. If a character has the ability to know when a gun is fired and can actually physically look at the gun pointing at him. Why are these two criterias alone not enough for Tsukasa to successfully do it?

 

[Arnoldstone18]

His danger sense literally allows him to react faster than Midori can pull the trigger. And I argue that Tsukasa will find Midori first thereby having a visual on whatever Midori is about to do. There is also the fact that Midori has no special training or fire arm skill against those with 6th senses like Chisato has. I don’t even want to mention Tsukasa’s maneuverability anymore.

HOW CAN YOU IN GOOD FAITH SAY TSUKASA CANT AIM DODGE SUCCESSFULLY.

If these aren’t enough then I give up trying to convince you on this point. It’s not like the gun is a deciding factor of the match, there are other things to consider.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean, I can list all of Midori's traps and tech if that helps

• Put electrified posts on the Gate so the Participants wouldn't be able to hop over it
• Locked the Boxing Ring Room while the Participants where in it and made a contraption that would fill the room with a lava-looking liquid if the puzzle wasn't cleared
• Anticipated that one of the Participants would press the Pressure Plate that would re-activate The Locker Room execution which nearly kills Gin and Hayasaka
• Activated mutiple noise-making objects so the Participants wouldn't be able to track him by listening to his footsteps, which also activated the Library Obstructor
• Used a doll of Keiji's childhood hero to distract him long enough for Midori to push him into a coffin that can cremate right on the spot
• Made both of Ranmaru's Upgrade Parts (The Steam Spray Hand can create smokescreens with steam and The Stun Gun Finger is a stun gun that's located in his finger)

Anyway, sorry for the wait.

Are these not Death Game traps? How would he be able to install them by himself in a forest without electricity in one day?

All candidates participating in the Death Game (plus Joe) have have multiple humanoid dolls of them made. These dolls are uncannily similar to their human counterparts, but if an AI isn't inserted into the dolls using the AI-Ciever, they're basically statues, and Midori uses these kinds of Dolls as shown with the soccer doll head clip + The Keiji distract thing.

Fair enough. Without the AI they technically wouldn’t be considered outside help. You need to add this stuff to the pages for future matches I guess.

It seems like they only serve to distract Tsukasa while Midori tries to sneak up on him. However there is a little detail you probably are aware of by now after reading the debate with @Pikaman and I which is the fact that Midori and Tsukasa are out of each other’s line of sight. Since Tsukasa’s enhanced senses can accurately pinpoint someone 50m away, Tsukasa would easily find Midori who is 40m away via match stipulation. Especially when Midori is moving around trying to find him.

So now that you know Tsukasa finds Midori first and the fact that most, if not all, Midori’s traps are probably not forest compatible since they’re death game traps and they also require electricity to function in a forest. What’s Midori going to do? Maybe the answer to this question is in your next paragraph.

Also the bloodlust sense is really only going to activate when Midori is about to shoot, not when he's looking for Tsukasa, and Midori with his being able "completely rotate his head" and almost having the same agility as Tsukasa should be able to find him first.
And even if Tsukasa does get the jump on him, Immortality type 2 means unless Tsukasa literally slices him in half (Which seems unlikely since Tsukasa thrusts with his sword if anything), Midori will just be able to return the favor, afterall getting closer will just make him an easier target

You’re right about the bloodlust. But Tsukasa also has a feat in the anime that lets him accurately pinpoint who is tracking him. That person was around 50m away as stated by Tsukasa without even looking and this match is 40m. Wouldn’t Tsukasa find Midori before Midori finds him?

Let’s consider how far 40m is from Midori and the location of this match. 40m is as long as three london busses, or the width of 19 cars, it’s even larger than the blue whale. 40m is a bit far. Now consider the location of this fight. It’s in a crooked forest at night. So Midori won’t simply sight Tsukuba based off turning his head around 360. He needs enhanced senses. Luckily Tsukasa’s enhanced senses are at least 50m so Tsukasa will be the first to find him.


Now that Tsukasa can get the jump on him. Let’s see how they fair in a CQC.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

You’ve seen the size of Tsukasa’s current blade right? When handling a massive double edged sword it’s more likely to start with a slash than a thrust. Even if Tsukasa thrusts Midori. He would immediately look for a slash in half. You say Midori would try to shoot him then… but wouldn’t he be crippling in fear of dying? Tsukasa would definitely see him trying to reach for the gun.

Tsukasa should outskill him and kill him as soon as he gets the jump on him. So what is Midori’s answer to Tsukasa’s skill? I’ll wait.

 

[Pikaman]

Even if Tsukasa thrusts Midori. He would immediately look for a slash in half. You say Midori would try to shoot him then… but wouldn’t he be crippling in fear of dying?

I mean Midori had a wee chuckle after facing a stab wound in the head so I don’t think so

Midori wasn't even really phased by a spike going through his head.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean Midori had a wee chuckle after facing a stab wound in the head so I don’t think so

Yeah a spike to the head won’t kill him so he won’t be afraid. I think in the end of the series Sara killed him with an attack that’s more severe than what you’re showing me. He was very afraid of her cuz he knew she can kill him.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I mean Midori had a wee chuckle after facing a stab wound in the head so I don’t think so

If you play or watch it, In the end you hear a literal chainsaw cutting through him.