Hulk upgrade: Gamma uproar part 1

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

There shouldn’t be

outerversal heralds

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

outerversal heralds

I’m pretty sure ultima already made hulk like hyperversal so we should be find for now

 

[Excellence616]

outerversal heralds

In his new comic, it seems like his villain is on same hierarchy as TOAA. So we might get Outerversal Hulk if he fought her.

There shouldn’t be

Should this be closed?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

outerversal heralds

Start with scaling Base Thor to High 1-B characters first

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Start with scaling Base Thor to High 1-B characters first

Then we move on to yggdrasil scaling that reminds me, if yggdrasil scaling is so inconsistent, why was it used to prove consistency

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Then we move on to yggdrasil scaling that reminds me, if yggdrasil scaling is so inconsistent, why was it used to prove consistency

It wasn’t considered inconsistent to scale Heralds to until it became Tier 1.

Duh.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

In his new comic, it seems like his villain is on same hierarchy as TOAA. So we might get Outerversal Hulk if he fought her.

Should this be closed?

Ya

 

[Antvasima]

Don't be so hasty with closing this thread please.

Has the Hulk's speed section received proper scaling explanations, and his tier section turned much more coherent/easier to understand?

We also need to rename all mentions of "Savage Hulk" in the relevant page to either "Childlike Hulk" or "Innocent Hulk", but I much prefer "Childlike Hulk".

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Has the Hulk's speed section received proper scaling explanations

I included whom Sunshine Joe/Peak Savage Hulk scale to, yes:

Speed: Hypersonic combat speed (Can react to Bushwhacker) | At least Subsonic+ jumping speed (His leaps have been measured to be 473 mph when calm) with Hypersonic combat speed (Can keep up with The Thing) | High Hypersonic jumping speed (Nearly reached escape velocity), with at most Massively FTL+ combat speed (He has consistently kept up with Thor, Gladiator, Hyperion, and the Silver Surfer), up to Infinite combat speed (Has kept up with Odinforce Thor) | Massively FTL+ combat speed (Matched The Sentry), far higher with Rage Power (He should be a lot faster than otherwise) | At most Massively FTL+ combat speed | Infinite combat speed (Kept up with Odinforce Thor)

and his tier section turned much more coherent/easier to understand?

How's this look?

Tier: 9-B, up to 5-B with certain weapons | Varies, usually 5-B, higher with Rage Power | Varies from 5-B to 3-C, High 3-A when sufficiently angered, up to High 1-B, far higher with Rage Power | Varies from High 3-A, up to High 1-B, far higher with Rage Power | Varies from 3-C to High 3-A, up to High 1-B, far higher with Rage Power | High 1-B, far higher with Rage Power

We also need to rename all mentions of "Savage Hulk" in the relevant page to either "Childlike Hulk" or "Innocent Hulk", but I much prefer "Childlike Hulk".

I changed it to "Childlike Hulk".

 

[Excellence616]

I included whom Sunshine Joe/Peak Savage Hulk scale to, yes:


How's this look?

Make sense. Devil Hulk and Green Scar needs to have Infinite combat speed since they both have High 1-B.

 

[Antvasima]

Thanks a lot for all of your help.

However, it seems strange to use the phrasing "High 3-A when sufficiently angered, up to High 1-B, far higher with Rage Power".

Wouldn't something similar to just "High 3-A to High 1-B when sufficiently angered" work better in terms of a logically coherent structure?

Also, Sunshine Joe Fixit both withstood blows from Odinforce Thor and had his arm easily sliced off by the Black Panther just panels apart in the same comic book issue, so his scaling seems completely self-contradictory/incoherent/driven by plot-induced stupidity.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

However, it seems strange to use the phrasing "High 3-A when sufficiently angered, up to High 1-B, far higher with Rage Power".

Wouldn't something similar to just "High 3-A to High 1-B when sufficiently angered" work better in terms of a logically coherent structure?

That works better, yeah. I assume "Higher with Rage" is included to account for his ability to continue growing stronger even after reaching a certain Tier.

Also, Sunshine Joe Fixit both withstood blows from Odinforce Thor and had his arm easily sliced off by the Black Panther just panels apart in the same comic book issue, so his scaling seems completely self-contradictory/incoherent/driven by plot-induced stupidity.

Checking his appearances, apparently Sunshine Joe does not have notable feats outside of soloing an Avengers team during the Immortal Hulk storyline, so I'm not sure where else we'd scale him.

 

[Antvasima]

That works better, yeah. I assume "Higher with Rage" is included to account for his ability to continue growing stronger even after reaching a certain Tier.

Okay. Should that change be applied then?

Checking his appearances, apparently Sunshine Joe does not have notable feats outside of soloing an Avengers team during the Immortal Hulk storyline, so I'm not sure where else we'd scale him.

Yes, it is a problem, given that Marvel Comics uses insane powerscaling matchups as usual.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

That works better, yeah. I assume "Higher with Rage" is included to account for his ability to continue growing stronger even after reaching a certain Tier.

Checking his appearances, apparently Sunshine Joe does not have notable feats outside of soloing an Avengers team during the Immortal Hulk storyline, so I'm not sure where else we'd scale him.

Well his only been in like 3 or 4 appearances so that’s to be expected

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Okay. Should that change be applied then?

Handled.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you.

On second thought, I don't know if we should include a key for Sunshine Joe Fixit, given that he fought Odinforce Thor and was beaten up by the Black Panther in the same comic book issue, and never astronomically remotely demonstrated or implied a High 1-B power level in any other of his fights or feats, and wasn't even angry when he fought Thor.

Al Ewing seemed to engage in massive amounts of deliberate plot-induced stupidity in order to make his storyline work with characters of such extremely differing power levels fighting each other. By that logic we would have to give the Black Panther (and Captain America) High 1-B statistics as well. This is the exact sort of situation that we should avoid according to our Marvel Comics rules.

I think that Sunshine Joe Fixit should get more appearances before we can reliably scale him.

 

[Excellence616]

Thank you.

On second thought, I don't know if we should include a key for Sunshine Joe Fixit, given that he fought Odinforce Thor and was beaten up by the Black Panther in the same comic book issue, and never astronomically remotely demonstrated or implied a High 1-B power level in any other of his fights or feats, and wasn't even angry when he fought Thor.

Al Ewing seemed to engage in massive amounts of deliberate plot-induced stupidity in order to make his storyline work with characters of such extremely differing power levels fighting each other. By that logic we would have to give the Black Panther (and Captain America) High 1-B statistics as well. This is the exact sort of situation that we should avoid according to our Marvel Comics rules.

He was fighting a whole team of Avengers, it's likely that someone weaker than him could hurt him and besides Black Panther Energy Daggers are known for ignoring durability.

I think that Sunshine Joe Fixit should get more appearances before we can reliably scale him.

There isn't a problem with that as it's a personality of Hulk.

 

[Antvasima]

He was fighting a whole team of Avengers, it's likely that someone weaker than him could hurt him and besides Black Panther Energy Daggers are known for ignoring durability.

That doesn't make any sense. The Black Panther effortlessly sliced his arm off and physically held his own. A non-angry powered-up Gray Hulk fighting Odinforce Thor seems to be the same kind of idiotic plot-induced stupidity power scaling happening in the other direction. As such, we can just as easily scale this incarnation of the Hulk from being seemingly weaker than the Black Panther and not instantly splattering Captain America with his blows.

There isn't a problem with that as it's a personality of Hulk.

We have rules about a minimum number of appearances for new forms and power-ups in order to not get extremely unreliable scaling of this type.

Given all of the above in combination, he definitely shouldn't have a statistics key, as he has been all over the place in terms of power level during his extremely limited appearances.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

That doesn't make any sense. The Black Panther effortlessly sliced his arm off and physically held his own. A non-angry powered-up Gray Hulk fighting Odinforce Thor seems to be the same kind of idiotic plot-induced stupidity power scaling happening in the other direction. As such, we can just as easily scale this incarnation of the Hulk from being seemingly weaker than the Black Panther and not instantly splattering Captain America with his blows.

We have rules about a minimum number of appearances for new forms and power-ups in order to not get extremely unreliable scaling of this type.

Given all of the above in combination, he definitely shouldn't have a statistics key, as he has been all over the place in terms of power level during his extremely limited appearances.

Black panther along with wolverine use material that allows them to hit way out of their weight class. I don’t see a problem here. He was green which is literally supposed to be a highe indcation of strength what are talking about?

 

[Antvasima]

The problems are the following:

A: Sunshine Joe Fixit was beaten up by the Black Panther, who definitely doesn't remotely have any regular High 1-B weaponry during street fights, regardless of rationalisations.

B: He wasn't even angry, and definitely did not remotely display a High 1-B scale of power when fighting any other characters, including the U-Foes and the Avengers, so stating that his base/calm level power is High 1-B doesn't remotely make any logical sense.

C: He did not even slug it out against Odinforce Thor, and the one time he tried, his entire arm was easily destroyed when punching Mjolnir.

D: He has almost no appearances with many feats to create a coherent pattern from which is against our rules.

This is beginning to turn ridicilous.

 

[Antvasima]

On second thought, I don't know if we should include a key for Sunshine Joe Fixit, given that he fought Odinforce Thor and was beaten up by the Black Panther in the same comic book issue, and never astronomically remotely demonstrated or implied a High 1-B power level in any other of his fights or feats, and wasn't even angry when he fought Thor.

Al Ewing seemed to engage in massive amounts of deliberate plot-induced stupidity in order to make his storyline work with characters of such extremely differing power levels fighting each other. By that logic we would have to give the Black Panther (and Captain America) High 1-B statistics as well. This is the exact sort of situation that we should avoid according to our Marvel Comics rules.

I think that Sunshine Joe Fixit should get more appearances before we can reliably scale him.

That doesn't make any sense. The Black Panther effortlessly sliced his arm off and physically held his own. A non-angry powered-up Gray Hulk fighting Odinforce Thor seems to be the same kind of idiotic plot-induced stupidity power scaling happening in the other direction. As such, we can just as easily scale this incarnation of the Hulk from being seemingly weaker than the Black Panther and not instantly splattering Captain America with his blows.

We have rules about a minimum number of appearances for new forms and power-ups in order to not get extremely unreliable scaling of this type.

Given all of the above in combination, he definitely shouldn't have a statistics key, as he has been all over the place in terms of power level during his extremely limited appearances.

The problems are the following:

A: Sunshine Joe Fixit was beaten up by the Black Panther, who definitely doesn't remotely have any regular High 1-B weaponry during street fights, regardless of rationalisations.

B: He wasn't even angry, and definitely did not remotely display a High 1-B scale of power when fighting any other characters, including the U-Foes and the Avengers, so stating that his base/calm level power is High 1-B doesn't remotely make any logical sense.

C: He did not even slug it out against Odinforce Thor, and the one time he tried, his entire arm was easily destroyed when punching Mjolnir.

D: He has almost no appearances with many feats to create a coherent pattern from which is against our rules.

This is beginning to turn ridicilous.

@Deagonx @Elizio33 @Qawsedf234 @ByAsura

I would greatly appreciate some help here.

 

[Antvasima]

@Eficiente @Firestorm808 @IdiosyncraticLawyer @PrinceofPein

Your help would also be appreciated here.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

I'm fine with removing Sunshine Joe Fixit's key given that it's not particularly vital to index. Don't have strong feelings either way though.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I am fine with removing it

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Removing the key seems okay

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you. I will do so then.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

The problems are the following:

A: Sunshine Joe Fixit was beaten up by the Black Panther, who definitely doesn't remotely have any regular High 1-B weaponry during street fights, regardless of rationalisations.

B: He wasn't even angry, and definitely did not remotely display a High 1-B scale of power when fighting any other characters, including the U-Foes and the Avengers, so stating that his base/calm level power is High 1-B doesn't remotely make any logical sense.

C: He did not even slug it out against Odinforce Thor, and the one time he tried, his entire arm was easily destroyed when punching Mjolnir.

D: He has almost no appearances with many feats to create a coherent pattern from which is against our rules.

This is beginning to turn ridicilous.

1. The hell you mean beaten? Joe regened all his attacks and kept on fighting.He literally used a newly developed energy source.

2. says who? He was pretty clearly shown to be angry after Thor started attack him . He literally played with the u-foes and he manly fought Thor in his first avengers fight.

3. He then immediately went on to choke him out with his regrown arm and Thor was incapable of getting free and needed help

4.most of your reasoning doesn’t make since but if it’s agianst the rules then whatever

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Since that's been removed, do we have anything left to do here?

 

[Excellence616]

Since that's been removed, do we have anything left to do here?

Nothing

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

Shouldn't the Sunshine Joe render and quote be removed too? Since there's no longer a key

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Shouldn't the Sunshine Joe render and quote be removed too? Since there's no longer a key

Handled.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

Nothing

Unless ant has another change of mind

 

[Antvasima]

Shouldn't the Sunshine Joe render and quote be removed too? Since there's no longer a key

I restored that header image, as we also have one for the Merged Hulk without actually featuring statistics for him, but it is not like I am especially dedicated to keeping it.

Also, I removed some redundant "higher with Rage Power" mentions when placed after High Hyperverse level statistics, as we have no indication that most incarnations can reach beyond that level.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

I restored that header image, as we also have one for the Merged Hulk without actually featuring statistics for him, but it is not like I am especially dedicated to keeping it.

Also, I removed some redundant "higher with Rage Power" mentions when placed after High Hyperverse level statistics, as we have no indication that most incarnations can reach beyond that level.

The only hulk personas who are stated can’t do that are specifically joe and prof hulk. All the other hulks have the same basic powers set

 

[Antvasima]

The point is that we have no proof at all that they can reach beyond skyfather tiering.

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

The point is that we have no proof at all that they can reach beyond skyfather tiering.

It’s literally been stated otherwise. They have the exact same power set. What goes for savage hulk goes for green scar and devil hulk

 

[Antvasima]

All that we know is that the Childlike Hulk at near peak power fought Odinforce Thor, and that the Worldbreaker Hulk/Green Scar could turn much more powerful than when he fought The Sentry when cutting loose completely in the Dark Dimension. That's it.

 

[Isaiah_ZaMangaka]

I restored that header image, as we also have one for the Merged Hulk without actually featuring statistics for him, but it is not like I am especially dedicated to keeping it.

Ah I see, I'd personally say keeping Professor Hulk render is fine considering the Hulkbuster scales to him

 

[The_one_you_least_expect]

All that we know is that the Childlike Hulk at near peak power fought Odinforce Thor, and that the Worldbreaker Hulk/Green Scar could turn much more powerful than when he fought The Sentry when cutting loose completely in the Dark Dimension. That's it.

Where are you getting peak from? It’s been stated multiple times he dosen’t have a limit. Savage hulk hasn’t even reached world breaker lvls of energy

 

[Antvasima]

We probably need to figure out statistics for the Merged Hulk at some point, but Peter David's one flaw as a Hulk writer was that with the exception of issue #440, he almost consistently portrayed the Hulk as being completely outclassed by herald-level characters, and seriously threatened even by characters like Havok. Also, before Peter David had Wolverine beat up the Gray Hulk, and inserted a healing factor retcon into the fight, the Hulk was too invulnerable for Wolverine to damage.