How to measure hax?, and what is the boundary of Durability Negation?.

[Chris_only9271]

As of now, there is a staff discussion thread about the Existence Eraser and its details, yet there is still no conclusion.

However, I was wondering about some points that are unclear on the EE/HAX page regarding 'how to measure them.' Specifically, I mean how to determine their potency/degree/potential. ?

On the HAX page, it is stated that 'however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability.' Does this mean that we can determine the potency/degree/potential of HAX by their targets' Durability?

For example, if some characters use their EE on a character who has 3-A durability, does that mean EE's potency/degree/potential will be on the 3-A level?

(pls don't get me wrong, i'm not trying to make hax to be AP, i know that it can't be AP, i just want to know how to measure the degree of hax)

And I know that most HAX ignore durability (durability negation), so there might be something wrong on the page, or I misunderstood the meaning. (I kinda sure that i misunderstood, so i hope some of admins can explain to me clearly by easy way)

And I also have a question about 'Durability Negation.' As we know that most HAX ignore durability, does that mean the HAX that has Durability Negation can affect every character no matter how high their durability is?.
I was wondering about boundary of effectiveness of Durability Negation.

As i understand, Durability Negation is a property of hax, it's because most of hax, their functioning isn't typically related to the body, their functioning is irrelevant to the body, skin, or external surfaces, such as Energy Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, Information Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation, Temperature Manipulation, Mind Control , Reality Warping, Matter manipulation. Etc.

However, being not related to the body, skin, or external surfaces is not supposed to mean that these abilities have limitless degree and can affect any character. There must be specific boundaries or a method to measure their degree.
Like we all saw on the page of Durability Negation in the details of Reality Warping
"Reality Warping - Characters who can manipulate reality can ignore a target's durability, if the target's scale does not exceed the degree of reality warping of the user. For example, the user can transform matter, cut whole sections of space or even throw targets beyond reality (into the outer void / chaos / nothingness)."

To clarify all my questions.

For example, Scarlet Witch from the MCU used EE to destroy all Darkhold in every universe.

From this feat, the range of her EE is low complex multiverse (low1-c),but what about its potency/degree/potential?
Does it have potency/degree h3-a or not?
This is because the note on Wanda MCU's page said that 'Wanda cannot be scaled(AP) to High 3-A, since she used a hax rather than her own raw magic power to destroy every Darkhold in the Multiverse.'
And so many people assumed that means her hax/EE's degree is h3-a.
And if her EE ignore durability. Does that mean she can use her EE on any character even though they are higher than h3-a?
Which means she can use her EE on any character in the MCU and erase them out of existence?

As I know, there are some differences in detail between 'using EE on a character and on a structure,' and in this case, I think it is on a structure because she used it to destroy all Darkhold in every universe, which means 'Characters or objects that demonstrate an infinite amount of energy on a 3-D scale, such as creating or destroying infinite mass,'
and if that's what it is. Is it possible if I consider it as "Environmental Destruction" ?

 

[KLOL506]

@DarkDragonMedeus

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Existence erasure is currently being adjusted, per a staff thread that I think you're referencing, to reflect AP. I am unsure of the exact bounds of that, so I'll defer to someone who fundamentally agrees with that position to discuss it. I can say that for Tier 2 and higher, EE has always had a relation to AP to an extent- Low 2-C EE has been considered inferior to Low 1-C, which is inferior to 1-C, and so on, solely because this represents higher "layers" of reality that the Existence Erasure can affect.

A 9-B with EE can use that EE on a 3-A. Even the new thread does not change this- it merely seeks, insofar as I am aware, to conflate the range of a given EE feat with AP. It does not attempt to suggest that EE from a 9-B is then restricted to only affecting 9-B characters. This is a foreseen drawback of the new rules defining the ability.

In your given example, EE-ing a Low 1-C structure would be considered Low 1-C EE. Hax is almost never conflated with Attack Potency, with the new rules on existence erasure being a glaring exception. In your example, I believe Wanda's tier would then read "7-A physically, at least 6-A, likely far higher with Magic, Low 1-C via Existence Erasure" (assuming your example is correct, of course).

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Case by case, but dimensional tiering would often effect levels of EE, Spatial Manipulation, and Time manipulation yes. But normally a 9-B character could EE characters with up to High 3-A durability unless they possess resistance to EE and what not.

 

[Chris_only9271]

A 9-B with EE can use that EE on a 3-A. Even the new thread does not change this

I appreciate your explanations, but I'm still curious about the statement on the Durability Negation page regarding 'if the target's scale does not exceed the degree of reality warping of the user.' Specifically, I'm unsure about the purpose of 'target's scale does not exceed the degree' and 'degree of reality warping' in this context.

You mentioned that 'A 9-B with EE can use that EE on a 3-A.' This could be due to Durability Negation. However, if a character with EE can use it on higher-tier characters, why do they still have to consider the degree of their EE and the target's scale not exceeding it? ( And I still don't know what the degree of EE is? or how to measure it.)

As far as I know, EE is a function of Reality Warping, as stated on the Reality Warping page that 'Examples include erasing things out of existence.'

On the HAX page, it is stated that 'however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability.' Does this mean that we can determine the potency/degree/potential of HAX by their targets' Durability?

And if you don't mind, I'm still curious about this question specifically. I mean, what is the purpose of 'however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability.'

Does this statement mean what you have explained, that 'I can say that for Tier 2 and higher, EE has always had a relation to AP to an extent- Low 2-C EE has been considered inferior to Low 1-C, which is inferior to 1-C, and so on, solely because this represents higher "layers" of reality that the Existence Erasure can affect'?

In your given example, EE-ing a Low 1-C structure would be considered Low 1-C EE. Hax is almost never conflated with Attack Potency, with the new rules on existence erasure being a glaring exception. In your example, I believe Wanda's tier would then read "7-A physically, at least 6-A, likely far higher with Magic, Low 1-C via Existence Erasure" (assuming your example is correct, of course).

My apologies for my unclear message.

In Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, at the end of the movie, Wanda used Existence Erasure (EE) to destroy the Darkhold in every universe. Now, I'm curious about how to consider her EE.

Would it be considered as EE-ing a Low 1-C structure or a High 3-A structure? This is because she used her EE to destroy the Darkhold in every universe, so does this mean she destroyed infinite mass ?or this mean she destroyed spaces whose size corresponds to one to two higher levels of infinity greater than a standard universal model Low 2-C structures?

And because the note on Wanda's MCU page said that 'Wanda cannot be scaled to High 3-A, since she used a hax rather than her own raw magic power to destroy every Darkhold in the Multiverse,' then many people assumed that means EE-ing a High 3-A structure.

And if it would be considered as EE-ing a Low 1-C structure, will we give her AP Low 1-C or just range Low 1-C?

But now in her profile, her AP is '7-A physically, at least 6-A, likely far higher with Magic,' and her range is Low Complex Multiverse (Low 1-C).

And if it would be considered as EE-ing a High 3-A structure, why is her range Low 1-C? And does this mean her EE's degree is High 3-A?

 

[Chris_only9271]

Case by case, but dimensional tiering would often effect levels of EE, Spatial Manipulation, and Time manipulation yes. But normally a 9-B character could EE characters with up to High 3-A durability unless they possess resistance to EE and what not.

So, based on your explanations, in Wanda (Mom) case, does it mean she can erase any character in the MCU if they lack resistance to EE?

And may I ask a specific question? In this case, could she erase the Phoenix Force, a cosmic being (Jean Grey (FOX: Post-Retcon)) after she merged with the Phoenix Force?

because i was wondering about the statement on the EE's page regarding, 'This ability's destructive power is not absolute, and one should not assume that it can erase the soul by default. It can only be judged by what it has accomplished.' Does this include the Phoenix Force?

 

[Chris_only9271]

I can say that for Tier 2 and higher, EE has always had a relation to AP to an extent- Low 2-C EE has been considered inferior to Low 1-C, which is inferior to 1-C, and so on, solely because this represents higher "layers" of reality that the Existence Erasure can affect.

And one more point that I've missed is if a character uses EE on a low 2-C structure or above, would it be considered environmental destruction or conventional Attack Potency.

As I understand from EE's page regarding 'For example, if a character is physically 9-B but is capable of erasing an entire timeline with their abilities, such a thing would have a "9-B, Low 2-C Environmental Destruction with Existence Erasure" rating.'

Would it be considered Environmental Destruction with Existence Eraser? if the character has not demonstrated the ability to employ it in a fashion resembling regular attacks (E.g. Focusing it though energy beams and the like). Which means Universal Energy Systems, i guess.

 

[Chris_only9271]

But normally a 9-B character could EE characters with up to High 3-A durability

And from (STAFF ONLY) EE AP revision thread, even though there is still no conclusion about Sub-Tier 2 EE being AP (if I'm not wrong), but based on your opinion, which is that you agree with Sub-Tier 2 EE being AP

I was wondering, would it be considered environmental destruction or not if the character has not demonstrated the ability to employ it in a fashion resembling regular attacks (E.g. Focusing it though energy beams and the like). Which means Universal Energy Systems, i guess.

 

[Chris_only9271]

Bump

 

[Chris_only9271]

Bump

 

[Chris_only9271]

Bump

 

[Mr. Bambu]

I was asked to speak on this again, acknowledging that it isn't really my place to defend a new system that I don't understand fully or agree with.

I appreciate your explanations, but I'm still curious about the statement on the Durability Negation page regarding 'if the target's scale does not exceed the degree of reality warping of the user.' Specifically, I'm unsure about the purpose of 'target's scale does not exceed the degree' and 'degree of reality warping' in this context.

Perhaps it would be easier to notate the scale of a target with numbers.

We have long since foresworn the use of dimensional tiering, but much of its blood still runs in the current system. When this page talks about "scale", it refers to something very much like our old dimensional tiering system: that is to say, higher and lower levels of existence. For your sake, you could refer to the level of existence we, as humans, experience, as level 0- under this terminology, Tier 11 would be level -1, Tier 2 would be level 1, and then Low 1-C would comprise levels 2-3, and so on- to learn more about this, I encourage you to read the Tiering System page.

You mentioned that 'A 9-B with EE can use that EE on a 3-A.' This could be due to Durability Negation. However, if a character with EE can use it on higher-tier characters, why do they still have to consider the degree of their EE and the target's scale not exceeding it? ( And I still don't know what the degree of EE is? or how to measure it.)

On this wiki, we consider the scale of the target to be necessary to interact with in order to affect it, even in the case of hax (that is, abilities that supersede durability). A Low 1-C would be so fundamentally different from a 3-A that we would expect evidence that the given ability (in this case, EE) works on that scale- doing so would cause us to consider it to be of that scale, and thus superior to the same ability from lower positions on the overall scale.

When talking about hax like this, you can indeed measure it simply by the scale. So, common terminology would be "Low 1-C EE".

And if you don't mind, I'm still curious about this question specifically. I mean, what is the purpose of 'however, they can be measured with their effectiveness against their targets' Durability.'

Does this statement mean what you have explained, that 'I can say that for Tier 2 and higher, EE has always had a relation to AP to an extent- Low 2-C EE has been considered inferior to Low 1-C, which is inferior to 1-C, and so on, solely because this represents higher "layers" of reality that the Existence Erasure can affect'?

To an extent, yes, you can determine the scale of one's ability by the durability of the people it affects. That is to say, this is indeed how you would determine the scale of the ability: affecting a Low 1-C would grant you an ability that works on a Low 1-C scale. This is only really relevant to these higher "layers"- a Low 2-C with EE can still EE a 2-A- as there is no difference of layer between them- without any special feats of EEing someone above their pay grade.

In Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, at the end of the movie, Wanda used Existence Erasure (EE) to destroy the Darkhold in every universe. Now, I'm curious about how to consider her EE.

I'm sorry to say this but you're definitely going to have to talk to someone who has watched more MCU than I have, perhaps by making a direct CRT or questions thread on that specific subject. I will offer you the idea that because the EE thread you're bringing up isn't fully concluded that practically all profiles are currently out of line with the desired effects of that CRT.

Good luck.

 

[Chris_only9271]

I was asked to speak on this again, acknowledging that it isn't really my place to defend a new system that I don't understand fully or agree with.


Perhaps it would be easier to notate the scale of a target with numbers.

We have long since foresworn the use of dimensional tiering, but much of its blood still runs in the current system. When this page talks about "scale", it refers to something very much like our old dimensional tiering system: that is to say, higher and lower levels of existence. For your sake, you could refer to the level of existence we, as humans, experience, as level 0- under this terminology, Tier 11 would be level -1, Tier 2 would be level 1, and then Low 1-C would comprise levels 2-3, and so on- to learn more about this, I encourage you to read the Tiering System page.


On this wiki, we consider the scale of the target to be necessary to interact with in order to affect it, even in the case of hax (that is, abilities that supersede durability). A Low 1-C would be so fundamentally different from a 3-A that we would expect evidence that the given ability (in this case, EE) works on that scale- doing so would cause us to consider it to be of that scale, and thus superior to the same ability from lower positions on the overall scale.

When talking about hax like this, you can indeed measure it simply by the scale. So, common terminology would be "Low 1-C EE".


To an extent, yes, you can determine the scale of one's ability by the durability of the people it affects. That is to say, this is indeed how you would determine the scale of the ability: affecting a Low 1-C would grant you an ability that works on a Low 1-C scale. This is only really relevant to these higher "layers"- a Low 2-C with EE can still EE a 2-A- as there is no difference of layer between them- without any special feats of EEing someone above their pay grade.


I'm sorry to say this but you're definitely going to have to talk to someone who has watched more MCU than I am, perhaps by making a direct CRT or questions thread on that specific subject. I will offer you the idea that because the EE thread you're bringing up isn't fully concluded that practically all profiles are currently out of line with the desired effects of that CRT.

Good luck.

Thank you so much .

Your explanation has completely clarified all of my questions.

Hope you have good luck as well.