How powerful are the Silmarils (LOTR)?

[Hat_mchat]

The silmarils are made from the light of the two trees of valinor of which a single fruit became the sun. Would that mean silmaril > sun? The silmarils certainly seem a bigger deal than the sun otherwise melkor would've stolen the sun. Thoughts?

 

[Dariel_Senju]

Yes, the Silmarils have the power of a star. Remember that Eärendil had one and when it rose to the oceans of the sky (aka outer space) in Vingilot together with its Silmaril, from Arda they saw him shining like a star and just that name gave him Gil Estel which means the Star of Hope.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Should Feanor then be tier 4-C at least?

 

[Dariel_Senju]

Well it would be necessary to discuss it more, I do not know if that is possible but if in fact the power of the Silmarils is accepted, then anyone who has had one then should be considered that tier so we would have to enter into a deeper discussion about it.

 

[Hat_mchat]

What more is needed?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Earendil "descended upon him as a white and searing flame and drove him from the skies", him referring to morgoth following the destruction of the sun and moon. This is an extract from the prophecy of dagor dagorath and i would assume that earendil gets a lot of power from the silmaril.

 

[Dariel_Senju]

Well it is that the staff of this community is that it decides in the end everything, and they would be the ones that would take into consideration on this also who knows if someone else has something to add or object in this subject, we have to wait for some more opinions and that the Staff see this and move on to considerations.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Can staff be tagged to this?

 

[Dariel_Senju]

If you want a particular staff to pay attention to this issue you can leave a message on your wall to keep you informed of this, this is the list of staff VS Battles Staff, as listed Knowledgeable Members List there are two in particular that you can consult to Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot and Hop Hoppington-Hoppenhiemer users as they have knowledge about the Legendarium of Tolkien.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Hm...it is quite possible. Varda is responsible for all the stars in the heavens, and that was merely from dew collected from the Two Trees of Valinor. As already mentioned, two fruits from said trees also created the sun and the moon, and iirc, prophecy states that following the Dagor Dagorath and Morgoth's ultimate defeat, the Silmarils will be broken and the light within them will recreate the Two Trees. They are clearly quite powerful artifacts, but I would like to see what others think, as well.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth I am personally fine with this, if you think that it is acceptable.

 

[Hat_mchat]

I don't think all wielders of silmarils should be 4-C though, just feanor as he actually created them, however earendil essentially owns a silmaril by now so he is definitely at least star level as well as the fact that after morgoth destroyed the sun, earendil cast him from the skies. Also the silmarils are likely able to be used as weapons as earendil fought ancalagon for 24 hours and he had a silmaril. It's likely that either the silmaril enhanced him in some way or he used it's light as a weapon. By the way, ungoliant is 2-C after she drank the wells of varda and consumed the light of thr two trees, yet at most seven Balrogs managed to beat her off. Shouldn't the balrogs be upgraded then if they chased off a full powered ungoliant? I know a 2-C rating seems rediculous for balrogs, but how else would they have defeated ungoliant. Furthermore the balrogs are maiar who helped in the creation so maybe not so far fetched. I don't really know, i just thought I'd throw that in there. They may not have displayed universe busting power, but neither did ungoliant. It's not as if ungoliant retaliated with a universe splitting attack.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Even if just Feanor was considered 4-C, a good chunk of other prominent characters would scale to him, as he was eventually slain by Gothmog (well, mortally wounded, but he died from the wounds Gothmog inflicted).

Ungoliant being chased off by Balrogs could possibly be considered an outlier, or that Ungoliant had gotten significantly weaker (less likely) in the undefined period of time between the two fleeing from the Valar and fighting over the Silmarils.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth Spesking of Lord of the Rings, there is a new profiles for Varda that has ratings that strongly contradict those of other Valar such as Ulmo. Would you be willing to fix the statistics?

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, it was indeed manifestation Varda that made the stars, since she did so after coming to Middle-Earth.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Feanor took a lot of damage before facing gothmog so it's unlikely it was full power feanor. Also feanor didn't have the silmarils therefore at the time he wasn't 4-C. Like i said, silmarils can be weaponised. So then it's possible that the balrogs actually defeated 2-C ungoliant, otherwise she would simply crush them? That would be a very large outlier as you are scaling from 6-B to 2-C.

Could we use this image for varda?

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth Okay, but then all of the other Valar need to be scaled from her.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Hat

That is true, though Balrogs scaling slightly to Feanor is less of a jump than Balrogs scaling to Ungoliant.

@Ant

Double checked, and yeah. She did indeed make the stars after manifesting on Arda.

I can change that now, if you wish.

 

[Hat_mchat]

So 4-C feanor and balrogs? Although i find it unlikely they can be scaled to 4-C feanor as feanor did not have the silmarils at the time.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

That would be very appreciated. Thank you.

Please remember to scale their durabilities and striking strengths as well, as they can withstand attacks from each other, and to change their tier categories accordingly.

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Lord_of_the_Rings

 

[Kaltias]

She did made the star, but I don't remember if she was creating whole star systems every time or if she made them one by one. New image looks good

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Hat

That is a possibility, yes. Perhaps "4-C with the Silmarils" would be good to add to Feanor's page.

@Ant

Alright.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Also, could we use that picture i posted for varda, personally i think it's more representative of her.

 

[Antvasima]

@Hat mchat I personally like the current image better, but if Azathoth wants to use your version, he should feel free to do so.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

I have adjusted the pages for the Valar we currently have. Though this does leave me with a few questions.

The first is how we scale Morgoth's drop in power and the beings that scale to him as he got weaker. The second is how we scale speed, considering manifestation Varda did possess the power of light and created all the stars in the sky very quickly.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Didn't you have weakened morgoth feats from the narutoforums where morgoth's scream was like x number of gigatons and how he froze helcaraxe? The original scale was from osse i believe who managed to raise numenor, so you set balrogs and other maiar as comparable to osse? Although i think osse>sauron. In regards to speed i think it is fine as it is for morgoth and other scaled beings as morgoth is weakened at this point and it is likely that varda > morgoth. Also varda didn't weaken like morgoth so she would retain her power.

 

[Antvasima]

I am uncertain how to scale any of the non-Valar that fought or are prophesised to fight Morgoth. It technically isn't logical for them to be able to do so.

We generally do not tend to automatically scale creation feats to physical speed, but I suppose that enveloping many star system in a brief period of time would technically mean MFTL+ attack speed. Since the Valar only slug it out physically, rather than firing energy beams at each other (which would also be the wrong genre), I am uncertain if it scales to their combat speeds however.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Regarding the speed of the ainur upon entry to Ea: "They could go where they willed, that is could be present at once at any point in Eä where they desired to be.

…

But the Vala (or Maia) could move or pass over Sea. For their bodies were self-made. They houseless[?] as spirits could go where they would (either slowly or immediately), and could then reclothe themselves." Parma Eldalamberon XVII "But as for the Valar themselves, and the Maiar also in their degree: they could live at any speed of thought or motion which they chose or desired.*(3) * They could move backward or forward in thought, and return again so swiftly that to those who were in their presence they did not appear to have moved. All that was past they could fully perceive; but being now in Time the future they could only perceive or explore in so far as its design was made clear to them in the Music, or as each one of them was specially concerned with this or that part of Eru's design, being His agent or Subcreator." Morgoth's Ring This shows: 1) immediate teleportation 2) any desired speed Regarding their lack of use of it in battles: they only ever really participated in one war for the sake of the elves and also it probably has a lot to do with non-interventionist policies

 

[Antvasima]

Was this for their physical manifestations, or their true selves?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Probably them as houseless spirits. However it is worth mentioning this is the ainur upon entering Ea so this should be added to their physical speed alongside the Immeasurable speed they have outside ea. This likely also scales attack speed due to them living at any speed of thought i.e. Immeasurable reaction times

 

[Antvasima]

Immeasurable is for characters that transcend linear time. Even moving anywhere literally instantly should only give Infinite speed ratings.

 

[Kaltias]

Imo that sounds like infinite speed

 

[Antvasima]

What do you think Azathoth?

 

[Hat_mchat]

Yeah i didn't really mean immeasurable i probably should've checked, i meant infinite for all their speeds. Could you change that?

 

[Antvasima]

It depends on what Azathoth thinks.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Oh and by the way, for their forms outside Ea shouldn't speed be 'irrelevant' as the definition was for beings that transcend the concept of time? In an earlier thread i noted how the timeless void transcended the concept of time, not just specifically linear time as the text specified the concept as in the fundamental basis for what 'time' really is.

 

[Kaltias]

They would be immeasurable at best. Irrelevant is only for 1-A beings

 

[Antvasima]

Kaltias is correct. Transcending the time of a simple 4D continuum is not the same as transcending the concepts of time and space altogether.

 

[Hat_mchat]

Otherwise this suggests that the concept of time existed in the timeless halls in spite of such conceots being bound to ea. This would suggest that concepts existed in the void before Eru or at least without Eru's creation

Yes i understand the difference between transcending an abstract concept and just transcending a facet of that concept, but the text specifically referred to the concept of time in general.

If it didn't refer to concepts then this would suggest that just a higher dimensional variant of spacetime existed in the timeless halls, yet i couldn't find any evidence to suggest so.

Concepts don't tend to be specific, for example you wouldn't say "the concept of yellow curtains" you would say "the concept of matter".

 

[Kaltias]

That's basically the same thing that Azatoth told you in the thread about 1-A Eru. Also, irrelevant being speed beyond the concept of time and space is mostly a figure of speech. What it actually means is that it is a speed that has qualitative superiority over every speed bounded by dimensions.