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How far Gremmy goes into Naruto

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.... no. You still need to resist soul manip as the only reason more reiryoku = more soul resistance is because reiryoku actually grants that. Verse equal doesn't give characters additional abilities, just allows the abilities they already have to interact with other verses as if they belonged to the same.

If a verse got MR from having magic, we wouldn't give FT characters resitance to magic with verse equal just because they use magic as well.
 
Not sure about Chakra being comparable to Reitasu. Regardless, some peeps here are making very stupid claims. Gremmy isn't dumb nor is he some idoit, he can understand high tech guns and space itself. By no means is Gremmy stupid, thats only a sentence that would come from one who's never bothered reading Bleach. Also Might Guy can't do shit here, using Kenpachi as an arguement for Guy winning is ridiculous. Gremmy only lost to Kenpachi due to Gremmy attempting to become stronger than Kenpachi and his own body destroying itself due to the sheer power. That's not to mention that Gremmy would be invisible to Guy. At that point it would just be Guy running around trying to find Gremmy meanwhile Gremmy can kill him in various ways. The only people I can see winning against him are those with mind hax, sufficient regen or hax.
 
@Anonymous

Nah...I don't agree with your assertion.

Chakra in Naruto is made up of spiritual and physical energy, from what I know about bleach reiyoku/reiatsu/reishi is just spiritual energy.

The exact reason why verse equalization is a thing is because of situations like this. If the Naruto and Bleac existed in one verse, top tier Naruto characters wouldn't be soul crushed; why, because of the way soul crush works in bleach, simply having reishi/their spiritual energy gives them resistance to soul crush.

Verse equal doesn't give characters additional abilities

Except, it totally does. Characters who have only power nulled magic/ reishi/chakra are assumed to be able to null a similar power from another verse.

We assume all genjutsu works on people with a chakra equivalent.

We assume that people with a nen equivalent which protects them won't be killed or paralysed by ren (Which is something which pretty much any Hunter x Hunter character can do by just amping themselves using nen).
 
And yet we don't assume atomic hax for everyone that has an equivalent to Cosmos. We don't give everyone that has an equivalent to Reiryoku, Soul Manipulation Resistance for the same reason we don't give Spiritual Awareness to everyone that has a Reiryoku Equivalent: It's a ability inherent to it.

And I've went over the "Spiritual Energy in Naruto" argument too many times to do it again tbh.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
@Astral

Cant believe I am going to keep this shit alive but .... dude, Tatsuki resists soul rip by the hundreds in Arrancar Invasion, the same Tatsuki who is weaker than pre shinigami Ichigo, who is far weaker than SS Ichigo who was dropped to the floor by Kenny's presence and so on so forth.

Soul crush is also not dependent on AP so proof needs to be brought for how anyone is surviving Gremmy's presence.
Click to expand...

Dude we don't scale abilities. You should know that. Or did u not understand who I was talking about lol. When did gremmy ever show resistance to soul absorption not Tatsuki
 
Hmmm...maybe this needs its own thread.

The way we equalize energy among verses seems to be kinda arbitrary.

I mean if we don't equalize shizz, it gets completely out of control.

You can't even break out of/prevent genjutsu without directly affecting the chakra in your brain in the naruto verse, yet we scale it just like any other generic magic mind manipulation. If we treated Sharingan Genjutsu like how you guys are proposing we treat soul crush, you could only prevent it via manipulating the chakra which your opponent placed in your brain. And since we can't give powers via verse equalization, that would be impossible....

See the problem here?

When you pick and choose which abilities to grant/equalize, it becomes a slippery slope.
 
Genjustsu unlike Soul Resistance isn't an inherent ability of Chakra and neither is resisting it. Both abilities are derived from it but not inherent.

Everyone with Reiryoku has Soul Resistance.

Not Everyone with Chakra has Resistance to Genjustu.
 
Saying that an ability can affect other abilities based on equivalences of energy is not the same as saying an ability or energy has the inherent traits of another.

Saying Itachi could Genjutsu anyone that should be able to have a chakra is unrelated and has nothing to do with chakra giving itachi abilities it doesn't have in anyway because it's being equalized to Reiryoku for the purposes of the match.
 
"Saying Itachi could Genjutsu anyone that should be able to have a chakra is unrelated and has nothing to do with chakra giving itachi abilities it doesn't have in anyway because it's being equalized to Reiryoku for the purposes of the match."

That wasn't my argument.

And Sharingan genjutsu works on those without chakra regardless of verse equalization.
 
Hst master said:
Genjustsu unlike Soul Resistance isn't an inherent ability of Chakra and neither is resisting it. Both abilities are derived from it but not inherent.

Everyone with Reiryoku has Soul Resistance.

Not Everyone with Chakra has Resistance to Genjustu.
Click to expand...
Correct. But in order to have resistance to genjutsu you need chakra.(Which was my point which I think you and Lancer missed)
 
Heck I'll take another example from Naruto: Six Paths Chakra.

Six Paths Chakra users have an inherent ability to resist Matter Manipulation and Limited Power Null because it is inherent to SPC. We do not share these abilities via verse Equalization soley because it is an energy source and the opposition has a similar one.
 
Yes...it does. IT worked on peeps without chakra and in one of the novels (I think the Itachi one?) it's explained that Sharingan genjutsu implants chakra inside the victim's brain.

In other words, the victim doesn't need chakra themselves.
 
Except by gaining Chakra I do not automatically gain resistance to Genjustu. I can still be easily affected by it.

By gaining Reiryoku you can gain Soul Resistance. Tatsuki a 10-A by gaining Reiryoku and having it raised due to being around Ichigo as a Soul Reaper, gained enough to resist having her soul absorbed by Yammy, a 7-A who was absorbing 100s of Souls at once.
 
@Yung

Except it's an energy source that can have a similar function to Chakra, outside of what I mentioned. It's already been Equalized several times. My point is it has inherent abilities but these abilities are not shared with someone who has say Demonic Energy because they're both energy sources. Along with the Seiya Cosmos example.
 
You are probably referring to the Itachi novel, yes. The moment when Itachi genjutsu's that Hyuuga distant descendant that totally doesn't make you angry all over again that Neji had potential that went to waste Alongside most of the other ex genin teams but oh well.
 
Why do people make Reiatsu/Reiryoku so controversial on threads, it's not that hard to understand.

Having Reiryoku (thus you have Reiatsu) grants you soul resistance. Reiryoku is literally soul power, so a stronger soul has soul resistance. That's it, nothing more needs to be said.

Reiatsu is the aura or physical extension of Reiryoku as Reiryoku is inside the soul. Reiatsu is literally the pressure of your soul (which is why it's an aura) that affects those with lower Reiryoku (thus lower Reiatsu). You need a a lot of Reiatsu yourself to counteract the Reiatsu of a strong opponent, which means you need a strong soul to stop the pressure of another strong soul, which is why it's all soul based.


Like, man, it's not that hard to grasp. Yeah, it sounds unfair in match-ups, but you don't see anyone complaining about characters on this wiki that have like Tier 2 to 0 mental manipulation by just looking at them. Some characters just have passive abilities that are part of their verse, Bleach happens to have it in the case of Reiatsu.

I don't even know why people think Reiatsu is AP based when nothing ever shows this and the reverse is literally proven when the 10-A Tatsuki has enough Reiryoku to resist the 7-A Yammy's soul manipulation ability that affected 100s at once (Yammy literally says after that she has a strong soul) and then it's revealed by Ulquiorra that her soul is slowly being crushed by Yammy's Reiatsu.
 
@HST

My point: We equalize genjutsu to generic magic mind manipulation despite the fact that it has defined mechanics which must be overcome in order to resist it. By allowing people to release genjutsu without even having chakra, we are already giving them abilities they don't have via verse equalization.

Soul crush is something that doesn't work on those of similar strength. Why? Because of their spiritual energy which protects them based on AP. So anyone with spiritual energy should have resistance based on their AP?

I know literally nothing about Saint Seiya so...

Also, who on earth equalized six paths chakra to an energy from another verse? That doesn't even work, it's like equalizing something to God of Destruction Ki.

@IMade

Well if it's not AP based in-verse, that's fair game.
 
The problem is that we aren't giving anyone any abilities via verse equalization, we are just verse equalizing stuff they can already do. Mind hax is mind hax, unless the way it works between both opponents is entirely and irrefutably divorced, so by consequence mind hax resistance is mind hax resistance. I doubt you have seen literally anyone at any point arguing someone to resist Genjutsu without showing mind resistance or anything close. You could even do that with someone who has superb control of their energy, which is necessary to dispel Genjutsu, and I still don't see anyone arguing they'd resist.

And like IMade made clear, at no point has it been shown that these inherent resistances have to do with AP.

So yes, Gremmy still clears most of the cast even without needing to use his abilities because reiatsu shenanigans.
 
"Mind hax is mind hax" is not a valid argument.

we might as well say "regen negation is regen negation" and throw scale and mechanics out of the window.
 
Is like you literally disregarded me saying "unless the mechanics are irrefutably divorced".

Is a case by case but, YES, at it's core mind hax is still mind hax, so resistance is still resistance in most cases. If you wanna argue the mechanics of genjutsu and how releasing it has nothing to do with the resistances of most verses, then that's something else entirely. And yes, that's exactly how you are making it sound.
 
Also, good chakra control doesn't automatically negate genjutsu.

You need to specifically be able to control the chakra within your brain.

And even people who can do that like Sakura and Kakashi still get genjutsu'd by genjutsu specialists like Itachi or even Sasuke.

"If you wanna argue the mechanics of genjutsu and how releasing it has nothing to do with the resistances of most verses"

That is exactly what I've been saying this whole time.

"We equalize genjutsu to generic magic mind manipulation despite the fact that it has defined mechanics which must be overcome in order to resist it. By allowing people to release genjutsu without even having chakra, we are already giving them abilities they don't have via verse equalization."

None of this actually matters anymore if Soul crush isn't AP based like Imade said. It's irrelevant to this thread.
 
Its like I didn't say AP and soul crush are independent of each other.

@Bleach guys

Should we actually just make a blog for the soul crush thing at this point? Reiterating the same words over and over in every Bleach thread is getting annoying and people still contest it all the time.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Its like I didn't say AP and soul crush are independent of each other.
Click to expand...
I ignored you because literally every other time I've seen it mentioned by people, they say AP = soul crush; I acknowledged IMade because he gave reasoning.


Anyway, I guess 8-C Ichigo solos the Naruto verse via soul crush. Which means...thread is over.
 
AnonymousBlank said:
Its like I didn't say AP and soul crush are independent of each other.

@Bleach guys

Should we actually just make a blog for the soul crush thing at this point? Reiterating the same words over and over in every Bleach thread is getting annoying and people still contest it all the time.
Click to expand...
Where would such a thread go? It's not exactly a CRT.
 
I figured we just link it on the verse page with the other mechanics and explanations of generic Bleach abilities. We can pool all the relevant scans there and just give a simple explanation with examples of soul crush being independent of AP like Keigo and Tatsuki being in the presence of Edrad vs Ikkaku and Yammy and Ulq respectively.
 
Match ups have always been up to the intelligence of the user to see if it is fair and for others to debate to establish whether it is or not. No one complains that Nihilus soul noms a planet passively so who really cares.

So long as people dont get whiny over what is essentially higher D characters ..... or tiers or hax or just abilities in general and call it unfair, there should be no issue.
 
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