How do we treat backscaling to 2-C?

[Lightbuster30]

How do we treat characters who are Low 2-C via backscaling to 2-C characters or feats? Characters who aren't 2-C individually but can contribute to 2-C feats with other characters? Characters who are "Unquantifiably" Low 2-C? I know I've seen it allowed for a few profiles, but is it actually the right way to treat those profiles? Should they just be outright 2-C or is there a better way of dealing with these types of feats? Is the way we do it know okay or are there other options for these characters?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

They become unquantifiably above low 2-C but the way they scale below 2-C depends, in the case I know best, dragon ball, characters who downscale downscale unquantifiably.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Alright, just wanted to know since it was brought up in a versus thread and it was suggested I post a QnA about it.

 

[Lightbuster30]

One extra bump to be safe

 

[Lightbuster30]

Oh, I can just tell this is gonna be one of those cases where I'm going to be bumping several dozens of times only to get a couple of responses.

Bump. Again.

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

2-C divided by any amount is 2-C. No amounts of multipliers from Low 2-C will get you to that level, otherwise this character would have been 2-C long ago. DB is a weird case that should probably not be a thing.

 

[Lightbuster30]

2-C divided by any amount is 2-C. No amounts of multipliers from Low 2-C will get you to that level, otherwise this character would have been 2-C long ago. DB is a weird case that should probably not be a thing.

Wouldn't 2-C have to be infinitely higher than Low 2-C for that to work? I thought it was unquantifiable?

 

[Oblivion_Of_The_Endless]

You can be infinitely high into Low 2-C and still won't reach 2-C, so probably. Plus, if you put a character at Low 2-C for doing half of a 2-C feat that still implies that said character's Low 2-C AP * 2 = 2-C, which seems to go against this note:

Due to the fact that the distance between any given number of universes embedded in higher-dimensional / higher-order spaces is currently unknowable, it is impossible to quantify the numerical gap between each one of the subtiers in Tier 2. As such, it is not allowed to upgrade such a character based solely on multipliers. For example, someone twice as strong as a Low 2-C character would still be Low 2-C, and someone infinitely more powerful than a 2-C would not be 2-A.

 

[Lightbuster30]

You can be infinitely high into Low 2-C and still won't reach 2-C,

Based on what I've read on the subject, this is because we have no idea how much of a power increase would be needed to push a Universe sized explosion to the point of covering and destroying a nearby Universe. We don't know how much of a power increase is needed for it to have 2-C range. So even if it's infinitely above baseline, we shrug and call it Low 2-C anyways just to play it safe, not because it genuinely takes greater than infinite above baseline. It could take 1000 times baseline to hit a nearby Universe for all we know. We just don't.

Plus, if you put a character at Low 2-C for doing half of a 2-C feat that still implies that said character's Low 2-C AP * 2 = 2-C, which seems to go against this note:

The note specifically says that this is due to the distance between Universes being completely unknowable. If we know someone can output enough needed for a half 2-C feat, then we are no longer dealing with something unknowable.

 

[Vietthai96]

depend, back scaling from 2-C mean the character is Unquantifiably higher than Baseline Low 2-C

 

[StekFence]

Wait. So let’s say a char can hurt a guy who scales to 2c, but would ultimately be easily defeated. Ud still be 2c?

 

[Vietthai96]

Wait. So let’s say a char can hurt a guy who scales to 2c, but would ultimately be easily defeated. Ud still be 2c?

That mean two thing. Either the 2-C guy who being hurt is massively above baseline 2-C or he suppressed his power; or Outlier lol

 

[N_Kardashev]

why does DB get to be an exception

 

[Vietthai96]

why does DB get to be an exception

Because it was specifically stated that both Beerus and Champa combine powers can nuke two universes, thus divide by two so each GoD will be half 2-C, but that was far back in the past, right now each of them are just Unquantifiably higher than Baseline Low 2-C

 

[Bobsican]

The note specifically says that this is due to the distance between Universes being completely unknowable. If we know someone can output enough needed for a half 2-C feat, then we are no longer dealing with something unknowable.

IIRC even in a case where this is knowledgeable, this is still unusable as we can't equate this to the ones of other verses for the purposes of 2-C.
Although if you ask me this is like saying that we shouldn't assume the laws of physics are the same across every verse even if they're how doing calculations is possible,

 

[Lightbuster30]

IIRC even in a case where this is knowledgeable, this is still unusable as we can't equate this to the ones of other verses for the purposes of 2-C.
Although if you ask me this is like saying that we shouldn't assume the laws of physics are the same across every verse even if they're how doing calculations is possible,

I'm just saying that the gap isn't necessarily infinite just because characters like it exist, and "infinite above baseline" seems a thing due to arbitrary reasons.

So, if the gap isn't actually infinite, does that mean scaling to either half 2-C or even surviving full-powered hits from baseline (Barely, meaning you'd be weaker than them), does that make backscaling into Low 2-C okay, or should they be 2-C outright? Particularly in the latter case, since it's a more direct form of scaling.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The gap between low 2-C and 2-C is not necessarily infinite. It's unquantifiable meaning it COULD be infinite, we just do not know so we can't assume anything. Therefore, we cannot assign a tier above low 2-C wothout feats.

 

[Bobsican]

However, even in a case where someone is infinitely above Low 2-C, we don't grant them 2-C either, but just list it as infinitely above Low 2-C from what I recall.

That being said...

I'm just saying that the gap isn't necessarily infinite just because characters like it exist, and "infinite above baseline" seems a thing due to arbitrary reasons.

So, if the gap isn't actually infinite, does that mean scaling to either half 2-C or even surviving full-powered hits from baseline (Barely, meaning you'd be weaker than them), does that make backscaling into Low 2-C okay, or should they be 2-C outright? Particularly in the latter case, since it's a more direct form of scaling.

Depends on context, scaling to someone while "losing" is a quite grey area and often goes into the negative unless there's reason for backscaling, such as a significant time going against the one with the 2-C scaling directly, if the one to backscale is one-shot but "survives", chances are they shouldn't scale, but otherwise they'd just be below baseline.
Yes, below baseline ratings exists for these cases, so it can't really be Low 2-C, given that the site basically treats Low 2-C and 2-C as incompatible tiers of sorts, so any scaling in Low 2-C won't change to another tier (but can be higher or lower than baseline), and the same applies to 2-C.

Ideally 2-C multipliers shouldn't be equated to another arbitrary number of universes of another verse's feat (And the same applies to 2-B), but the reason this is done either way in match-ups is beyond me, even if we don't change such tiers based on multipliers when indexing.

 

[Lightbuster30]

Depends on context, scaling to someone while "losing" is a quite grey area and often goes into the negative unless there's reason for backscaling, such as a significant time going against the one with the 2-C scaling directly, if the one to backscale is one-shot but "survives", chances are they shouldn't scale, but otherwise they'd just be below baseline.

Not getting One-shot. Far from it, just taking notable damage. But at the same time weak enough that their durability is blatantly not 2-C. A character who takes a baseline 7-C attack with moderate to serious damage (But not even close to one-shot either) obviously wouldn't be 7-C in durability. By default, the 7-C attack already broke through said durability.

Yes, below baseline ratings exists for these cases, so it can't really be Low 2-C, given that the site basically treats Low 2-C and 2-C as incompatible tiers of sorts, so any scaling in Low 2-C won't change to another tier (but can be higher or lower than baseline), and the same applies to 2-C.

Then what tier would being strong enough to not get stomped a baseline 2-C be then? I feel they'd have to get something out of it.

 

[N_Kardashev]

Because it was specifically stated that both Beerus and Champa combine powers can nuke two universes, thus divide by two so each GoD will be half 2-C, but that was far back in the past, right now each of them are just Unquantifiably higher than Baseline Low 2-C

what if they're really just 2-C? its better to scale to a physical 2-C feat than a Low 2-C statement

 

[Vietthai96]

what if they're really just 2-C? its better to scale to a physical 2-C feat than a Low 2-C statement

Well, because of feat, the wiki don't assume though

 

[Bobsican]

Not getting One-shot. Far from it, just taking notable damage. But at the same time weak enough that their durability is blatantly not 2-C. A character who takes a baseline 7-C attack with moderate to serious damage (But not even close to one-shot either) obviously wouldn't be 7-C in durability. By default, the 7-C attack already broke through said durability.

Then what tier would being strong enough to not get stomped a baseline 2-C be then? I feel they'd have to get something out of it.

I see.

Well, the whole point was that it'd be 2-C, just below baseline, as said before.