Hoshi (µÿƒ) Feats Standards

[DarkDragonMedeus]

SleepyTBubble is also very right, and the most accurate translation is just Celestial body. It can pierce a celstial body, and then it says destroy the planet; but celestial body can mean anything and doesn't mean star by default. So it shouldn't be the first assumption and should go by context and other feats before assuming anything.

 

[ElixirBlue]

I'm for a possibly rating for the Eclipse Cannon, as both sides are making sense to me on this.

 

[Wokistan]

Anyways I don't really have the time or interest to continue with this so that'll probably be where I leave off unless I get summoned later or something

 

[ShakeResounding]

SleepyTBubble is also very right, and the most accurate translation is just Celestial body. It can pierce a celstial body, and then it says destroy the planet; but celestial body can mean anything and doesn't mean star by default. So it shouldn't be the first assumption and should go by context and other feats before assuming anything.

I still honestly have no idea what you're getting at.

> It translates to stars by multiple sources, be it Sega of America as well as reliable translators such as Windii

> Threatening the planet in no way means that that's the upper limit of it's power, and lower feats don't contradict the potential for higher ones.

If it's said to pierce stars over and over, and is translated to that repeatedly by different sources, then it obviously means the intent of what was being said was obviously referrencing a star. You can only go so far with cancelling context by using feats, DDM. There's a limit to be had here.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Tier 4 Saitama.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Don't start with this, Cal.

That comparison was beaten into the ground amd torn apart.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

@Wokistan

Depends. Sometimes, some series gets the short end of the stick and are presented with an awful official translation/localizatio that completely gutters what the original writing had in. A famous example is Fortissimo for which anyone who know japanese would tell you just how much SakuraGame screwes it up pretty badly with it. There's Moenovel which was another famous example as they were known for their not so good to outright horrible localization. I've seen my fair share of localization ending up mistranslating an entire wall of sentences despite being "supervised". I can very much name you a lot of works that even when undergoing through multitude of analyses (Most of this goes to both the translators and the proofreaders) are pure shit.

I am not abolishing the idea of using english translations at all. However, if possible (emphasis on this), it would be wise to depend on the original language the series was written in (especially when it comes to japanese series).

Going back to topic at hand. Just look at the context µÿƒ was used in and make a deduction out of it.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I have had more experience reading looking localizations and original Japanese translations being compared and contrasted. And so have other Admins. And actually, the most accurate definition of the word Hoshi as Sleeping Bubble and Triforce said is "Celestial body", which can literally mean anything from comets, to planets, to stars. The last of which is the most superlative of the bunch. And it's against the wiki's standards to use the most superlative definition without elaborate context.

No one said, the best thing it did was destroyed the planet making planet level the upper limit of the cast, only that the feat in question has no proof of being Tier 4 or High 5-A. All that's being said is context is more important than word definitions and it doesn't matter how many people say it means star when there clearly is no final translation. It's the very reason feats are above statements is because actual context and miscommunications are a thing. Still the best provable feat is still Tier 5. If there are other calculations/feats characters have, then sure. But this feat itself doesn't hold enough weight.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Uh, cool? I guess being an admin makes you above not only reliable fan translators, but the company that dubbed the game itself. What a world, amirite?

The proof is within the translations. I believe the "final translation" is from Sega itself. The initial doubt was that it could've been referring to a planet/celestial body or whatever. What seperated it was that there are multiple translations pointing to it talking about stars. You're straying away from what caused this debate to begin with.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Don't start with this, Cal.

That comparison was beaten into the ground amd torn apart.

Except it wasn't. Planets don't collapse. Stars do. Yet the hoshi statement applies. Heck, Cell outright says Solar System and that was scrutinized to heck and back. Not even hoshi there. All context points to planet because that was what was at stake. Yet star here? Heck, I even talked to Sera and she said hoshi is planet 90% of the time.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Uh, cool? I guess being an admin makes you above not only reliable fan translators, but the company that dubbed the game itself. What a world, amirite?

You're right. We should allow Alien X be omnipotent, Rick Sanchez to be 2-A, Dante to be 3-A based on feats in DMC1, Bayonetta to be stronger than Dante, and Spider-Man to be on the level of Thor at the very least speedwise. Cuz that's what the companies say.

Oh and Kale and Caulifla are lesbians and Dragon Maid is anti-patriarchy because that's what the dubs say.

 

[ShakeResounding]

The planet being at stake is not something that contradicts Tier 4 power, as Wokistan had already said above. It was threatening the planet, yes, but that in no way means that that's the limit. Stars are what was translated, and threatening the planet has no influence on that.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Except yes. It is. Feats. Are. Greater. Than. Statements. Look me in the eyes and say that the context implies star over planet.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The entire point DDM is that it isn't only the official translation but literaly everyone who is knoweledge on both the series and japanese translated it as star

Then the official translation and these so-called "knowledgeable people" are all freaking wrong. Yeah, I'm not going to trust a fan translation I never heard of until now. And do understand that the Earth can be called a "Star" in Japanese.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Except yes. It is. Feats. Are. Greater. Than. Statements. Look me in the eyes and say that the context implies star over planet.

If that's the case, is the eclipse cannon just be 5-C or High 6-A, based on feats we've seen?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If that's the case, is the eclipse cannon just be 5-C or High 6-A, based on feats we've seen?

Yes. We have never seen it destroy a single planet.

 

[ShakeResounding]

Because it was never used with the intent to destroy the planet. It was shot at the moon as a damn ''warning''

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It performed a 6-B feat with 5 Emeralds, obvious low end feat that could be passed but a feat none of the less. And it as a Low 5-B feat, which is consistent-ish, and multiple statements about it having the power to destroy a planet even if it gets throttled before it happens.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Eggman's true reason for destroying the moo

 

[Radical_Resident_Khan]

I had a feeling some massive argument would start once Sonic was involved

 

[Sera_EX]

I'm in general agreement with Wokistan here but I don't feel like getting into this.

 

[Sera_EX]

Also the Earth is never called a star in any legit translation. If a translation calls the Earth a star, it's very bad. And no Final Fantasy doesn't count, it's an outlier because those localizations butcher context all the freaking time. When directly referring to the Earth, "sekai", "wakusei", or "chikyuu" would be used. Hoshi does mean "celestial body" and context is required but "Earth is called a star in Japanese" is just bonkers.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Also the Earth is never called a star in any legit translation. If a translation calls the Earth a star, it's very bad. And no Final Fantasy doesn't count, it's an outlier because those localizations butcher context all the freaking time. When directly referring to the Earth, "sekai", "wakusei", or "chikyuu" would be used. Hoshi does mean "celestial body" and context is required but "Earth is called a star in Japanese" is just bonkers.

Not really. We have Nasuverse using Hoshi when refering to planets for examples so it's not really off

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Actually, some of the dubs that used "Destroy the planet" has "Pierce the stars" as their Japanese text in Sonic Adventure 2. So Earth has been called Hoshi in some alterations like many other mistranslation localization end even original Japanese. And maybe "Earth is called a star in Japanese" wasn't right, but it is called "Hoshi" or "Celestial Body," in Japanese. And even One Punch Man called Earth Hoshi as mentioned above.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Sleepy

I know, but that's because they talk about other planets. I was specifically referring to just the Earth. Usually with Earth they wouldn't just call it a celestial body, there's plenty of words for Earth than just calling it "a celestial body".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Sera

What do you mean, Earth is never called a star? We have one such example of this very thing happening in the starter post for the thread. In One Punch Man anime, Boros states "I'll send you and this entire planet straight to hell!" when he's charging the Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon at Saitama, and in the Japanese Dub he outright says "Hoshi".

He's unambiguously using a word that can mean "star" to refer to Earth.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Also, on topic, even the Moon has been called a Hoshi in Japanese before.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Lol. In Sailor Moon they use hoshi for everything. Even for people.

There's a feat in the first arc that has been a bit of debate. It's either large star or large planet. And we have mutiple official english translations that have translated it into star and also as planet.

For things like this, you might just have to flip a coin and see where it fits best.

 

[Sera_EX]

Boros isn't from Earth, of course he'd call it a "celestial body". That's why I said "directly" referring to the Earth as in (in English) "I'm going to blow up the Earth" will rarely ever be translated as hoshi.

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Da Vinci did use the kanji hoshi to refer to Earth though? Not strictly for other planets but also that of our Earth

 

[Battler356ushiromiya]

Hoshi simply means every celestial body right like planet, moon, stars, asteroids etc

 

[Sera_EX]

Regardless, this is veering away from the point here so I'll digress.

 

[Battler356ushiromiya]

In samurai 8 mostly uses hoshi which is why it's confusing if characters are actually casual planet busters or casual star busters

 

[SleepyTBubble]

Anyway i'll be out from this thread unless something major is brought up

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The main premise is just that it doesn't sound like "µÿƒÒéÆÞ▓½ÒüÅ (Hoshi o tsuranuku meaning penetrating the celestial bodies)" is a reliable statement about having the capacity to punch a hole through the sun and should go by either shown feats or other feats instead relying on this specific statement. We usually calculate on screen feats also.

 

[Theuser789]

Then the official translation and these so-called "knowledgeable people" are all freaking wrong. Yeah, I'm not going to trust a fan translation I never heard of until now. And do understand that the Earth can be called a "Star" in Japanese.

Unless you have any actual proof that your opinion is better than knoweledble people and the freaking game then it means nothing at all

I can literaly show all the games, scripts, in game dialogue and even beta script that Wiindii has translated

No one in this thread has proved why it would be planet except hoshi meaning many things

 

[Theuser789]

""They are going to destroy the planet" in other cut scenes""

That statment was about the Ark crashing into the Earth, not the cannon

"And listing all the calculated feats, we have a [City Busting feat calculated at 6-B which was done with the empowerment with 5 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds. Destroying a large part of the moon calculated at 5-B+ originally in the blog, but recalculated at Low 5-B as seen below in the comments and listed somewhere on DarkAnine's wall that he's okay with that, which was done with 6 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds."

The first feat was a warning shot against the president and again not even at full power, the second the same, and seeing how one emerald boosted the cannon from low 6-B to low 5-B with a warning shot, there's nothing against it increasing to 5-A (the accepted end) with the actual full power

"It was about to be fired and destroy the Earth in Sonic Adventure 2, as well as when Biolizard merges with it to crash onto the Earth"

This is a AoE fallacy, just because they were planning to destroy the planet doesn't mean they can only destroy the planet and nothing more, and the Final Hazard is already 5-A and everything

"And in one route, Black Doom says in the same video where piercing the stars is mentioned,, says he's going to use it and all 7 Chaos Emeralds to destroy humanity"

He never says that he is going to destroy humanity, only he will fulfil the prosperity ritual, which is revealed in the last story (1:00) that's teleporting the Black Comett to the Earth, not destroy humanity

All in all nothing contradicts the star statment

Reposting this because here I refute this whole argument against the Eclipse Cannon """max""" being planet even though it never fired at full power

Nothing contradicts star translation outside of some people opinions here that aren't supported, hell even Sera who lives in japan agrees with the translations, unless anyone here has any prove they are wrong outside of bad analogys then there's not much to discuss

And the Boros thing is not a good analogy as already explained, he was firing it at Earth and unlike the Eclipse Cannon no translation translated it as planet, and the move having star doesn't make it tier 4, a actual good analogy is Vegeta's Big Bang attack, which is just a name

 

[Sera_EX]

Outside of the feats argument, which I don't want to get into right now since honestly it's a bit irrelevant when discussing the validity of a statment's translation, I'm still not seeing what contradicts the star statement myself. Sega of America are pretty competent at translations. They aren't like Viz Media. If the official translation says stars, I don't know why it should be ignored. Also, if it's by multiple sources, I don't see the issue here. Now I'm arguing specifically about the translation's validity. Whether or not the statements itself are reliable is another story I'm not interested in.

 

[Mephistus]

The main premise is just that it doesn't sound like "µÿƒÒéÆÞ▓½ÒüÅ (Hoshi o tsuranuku meaning penetrating the celestial bodies)" is a reliable statement about having the capacity to punch a hole through the sun and should go by either shown feats or other feats instead relying on this specific statement. We usually calculate on screen feats also.

https://imgur.com/lw72deb

"Pierce through stars" is what I'm gonna roll with for the Black Doom statement due to common translation and Windii's fluency here.

We don't have a reason to think that Black Doom is incompetent or lying intent about the power of the cannon seeing as he spent time with Gerald and shiz making his mini-me.

The feat not being on-screen means little when the feat is framed in such a way where it can be modeled appropriately for a calc.

Calc was accepted, barring the hoshi translation controversy brought to this thread, so yeah, that's really all I have to say on that.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Sera herself admitted that Hoshi means planet 90% of the time as Cal mentioned above. And what it specifically means is "Celestial body". The point wasn't "The feat happened off screen" the fact was there feat doesn't even exist to begin with. Penetrating Hoshi could be referring to Mars, the moon, Jupiter, Saturn, or even Pluto. While it can mean star, it doesn't mean star by default. Sekai means world which can mean universe, but it doesn't mean universe by default and assuming Hoshi means star by default is no different.

And actually, I can think of examples where Sega of America ****** up translations big time; Phantasy Star and Zero Wing are both examples of this. They made numerous "Bimmy and jimmy" levels of mistranslations.

Anyway, I still think Matt and Everlasting have the best sense of judgement here.