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Honkai Impact 3rd

About the speed, I think we can scaling from Kiana who can dodge Mei lightning in their first encounter who at that time literally weaker than B-Ranker.
 
@Stocking.exe: we need Kiana KMB actually destroy Singapore but no sho don't, we lack Country-level feats. Mei's lighting need to be calc, no proof it move at the same speed as real lighting, beside, stronger doesn't eman you always get faster so...............
 
Schnee One said:
She is basically the god of lightning, if it's cloud to ground it should be useable
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just a figurative title, unless we have proof Mei's lighting is as fast as real lighting, aside from that it is just a energy blast with an appearance and shape of a lighting. Well it is a thing to look for, and possibly we can upgrade their reaction speed, but combat speed need more evident, because there is many inconsistent is speed, especially if we look at those short animated video of the game
 
The only thing I got out of Mei is her being the Herrscher of Lightning/Thunder. But the only thing I got out of what that entails is this from a Honkai Impact wiki:

"Her ability is to manipulate electromagnetic fields includes "electromagnetic field surrounding the body" and "electromagnetic pulses that destroy chemical bonds within the molecule"."

IDK about the latter part but the first one is what I've seen her use so far to do things like increase the blows of her attack and likely stun her enemies too with it assumingly. IDK if she's been able to use this as some kind of long range attack, much less being CtG but I haven't played the game for a while and there's scattered stuff for me to try and check that.
 
I'm not totally shocked that the only place where I can find some discussion of this work is on here. I may as well bite the bullet and talk.

The characters generally don't get faster but stronger. Many of these characters easily scale to sub-releativistic combat speeds (reactions and short-distance): https://www.narutoforums.org/posts/61116391/

Obviously Sirin with multiple cores scales to this, but so does Welt, who was able to evade a sneak attack by Sirin on the moon. Furthermore, when she threw more rocks at the earth, he was able to shoot down those rocks as well despite being heavily injured, meaning that this also scaled back to Sirin with just one core. This would get cleared up with powerscaling anyway.

One of the few fights that Sirin gets involved is against Cheng Luxie, a very strong A-rank Valkyrie, who is able to fight against Sirin for a while. While she clearly wasn't able to do much damage at all to Sirin, she was able to fight for a while, implying that she's fast enogh to keep up. Sirin even says that Cheng was able to fight her for a longer time than she expected. So this would scale to high-end A-rank Valkyries and other strong characters (e.g. Fu Hua, Benares, Durandal, Cecilia, etc).

There is also the possibility of translumincal reactions and "combat speed" (i.e. short-range movement) because we see that Sirin can move (though she does struggle) differing body parts through the event horizon of Welt Yang's black hole. But we first need to establish this is a real black hole, and since I'm on this site I will use this site's standards of evidence on this subject:

"If the statement is from a reliable source and it doesn't behave in an unrealistic manner as outlined previously, it can be safely assumed to be a proper black hole."

As we all know, the person who explains this phenomemon is Einstein in the 2nd Eruption comic (chapter 28, pages 2-8), but also in the Anti-Entropy visual novel, there is a lot of talk by Einstein, Telsa, etc on the nature of black holes and the Star of Eden. Welt Yang is able to re-create the Star of Eden and use its abilities. It has an event horizon, light bends around its event horizon as well, it displays the property of time dilation. Even visually, as we see it act as though it were a real black hole.

From this thread: https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/2623841

"Well, requirements are basically just that they look like black holes, are called black holes and don't violate basic black hole properties. It's the latter 99% of all fictional black holes fail at and what is explained on the page."

It's pretty much beaten over our heads that the black holes that he creates are real. Anti-Entropy visual novel description (chapter 26):

"Black hole. He had read about this in one of Einstein's physics papers. Generally, they are the result when a massive star, at least 3 times more than the Sun, collapses at the end of their life cycle. Their force of gravity is so great that nothing can stop it. ...And eventually all is reduced to 3 parameters: mass, angular momentum, and electric charge. By that point the gravitational field is so strong nothing can escape from it, not even light. From the point of view of a far away observer, the process of being sucked in will be a slow one due to time dilation. In the area known as "event horizon" all finite processes are infinite. He received a signal from the outside—— As his consciousness is gradually breaking apart."

"Otto: Creating a black hole... What a barbaric ability. Once something falls into it it's over, not even light can't escape from it. But that also means that as long as you don't cross the point of no return, you can escape even without going at the speed of the light. ..You were careless, Herrscher."

This further extends to the Welt clones, who themselves can create black holes (Manga volme 5, chapter 37, pages 10-12) simply through "instinct" since they are just clones of Welt Yang and imitating his powers: https://comic.bh3.com/book/1012/10

"Once the 1st Herrscher copy things, it can become like "muscle memory" copies, it's "blueprint" will be retained, and it will be copied more effectively the next time it is used. We remember that the Welt clones appeared in the comics "AE Invasion" and "Moon Shadow", even without holding the 9th Divine Key, still instinctively used the ability to control gravity."

Welt clones are much weaker than high-end A-rank Valkyires like Fu Hua, and the Fu Hua that loses in volume 5 is a Fu Hua with a shirt and flip flops. Herrscher Mei, who was using well below the 1000 HW threshold (since above that indicates a Herrscher possibly appearining, which would trigger her heart bomb) easily stomped all over clone Welt. Pseudo Herrschers like Galina, Avrora, and Agata had 50% of Sirin's eruption readings. In the 2nd Erpuption comic, we learn that later in the SIberia attack, Sirin's reading had reached over Welt Joyce's eruption readings. which were greater than Welt Joyce's eruption, which were at 2500 HW. Meaning that Sirin's eruption was at at most 2499 HW, so her Psuedo Herrschers were around 500 - 1200 HW. But, here's the kicker, Yuna's mini eruption in volume 3 was pushing into Herrscher territory (though she hadn't developed a core yet), meaning she was hovering around 1000 HW. Theresa was confident that she could finish someone with Yuna's energy levels on her own.

So yeah. These caharacters are demonstrably stronger and faster than what is being posted here.
 
Also, you might say that Galina, Agata, and Avrora has fake cores, so they might not be on clone Welt's level. But you have to remember that those fake cores bumped them from corpses to Pseudo Herrscher level, and Yuna was already threatning into Herrscher levels without a core (she was already classified as a Pseudo Herrscher). And it's around or below this level of power that Herrscher Mei stopmed clone Welt. Clone Welt is well below Pseudo Herrscher level, which reflects the various portrayals of clone Welts: only had an edge on Mei once her heart bomb was activated--before that he was tasting her feet; only defeated Fu Hua because she was in flip flops, a t-shirt, and trying to protect Mei's unconcious body; was clearly too much for Kiana, who is really around A-rank despite her being officially labeled a B-rank. But stomping a mid-level A-rank doesn't match up to other Psuedo-Herrschers. Ganesha, an Emperor-class Honkai, is able to take on multiple A- and B-rank Valkyries and kill many before being taken down. And Emperor is below Judgment, which is below Pseudo, so yeah.
 
Schnee One said:
Yeah, only the strongest S rank Valks compare to Herrschers
Click to expand...
I actually want to really discuss things here, so I'm going to be the devil's advocate for things since no one in the OBD discusses this, much less the peron who requested me to look at this series. Herrschers are much stronger than any S-rank. S-ranks are psuedo herrscher level at best.

- Cecilia was largely ineffective against Sirin. She didn't do much of anything in terms of physical combat. - Sigfried could barely move against Welt Yang's casual gravity attack. - Theresa has a lot of difficulty with Yuna. though she was unaware of her poison and was attacked covertly. After getting the twelfth's stigmata, she sttuggles to defeat MSR-7 God Father even with the help of Himeko, Kiana, etc. Theresa with her Godsbane, albeit still nerfing her, wasn't able to challenge HoV Kiana and needed to defeat Benares with the help of Mei and Bronya. Even after this series, she's still weaker than Rita according to Otto. She defeats Tlaloc, which might be Judgement level, but Bronya without really adapting to her core is able to easily defeat Tlacoc. - Rita and Durandal both cannot defeat HoV Kiana according to either of the two. While Kevin is stronger than Herrschers, Durandal only defeated his ELF copy with a lot of difficulty. - They did fight and defeat Wendy and were sending Durandal, but this was before things were really ironed out in the story. There are many contradictions in chapters 3 and 4.

Maybe only Durandal compares, but she has no feats to support that assumption
 
We can sure for one thing that Fu Hua is a few people that can easily kept up with Herrschers like Sirin(If god didn't interfered).
 
Sirin crushed Fu Hua after getting serious, and people stronger then Fu Hua struggle against Herrschers
 
Schnee One said:
Sirin crushed Fu Hua after getting serious, and people stronger then Fu Hua struggle against Herrschers
Click to expand...
She didn't crushed she actually manage to break out from Fenghua with God supporting as I said.
 
Witch Bernkastel said:
Prime Fu Hua (i.e. Fu Hua from 50,000 years ago) is stronger than Sirin, but present day Fu Hua isn't.
Click to expand...
It is something about stamina instead of powers I think. Cuz more she uses her powers more her memories gone and more life cost unlike in her prime age which had limitless stamina and longevity.
 
Ah gain, here we go ashit.

Up above there are talks about how they'd be somewhere in Building level. For they are to beat up Honkai Beasts of that size.
 
I'm trying to find feats for them, and the clearest one would be Kiana defeating Ganesha, an Emperor-class Honkai. But Kiana defeating Ganesha reeks of outlier. There's no need to talk abut Wendy's situation either.
 
Before you provided your pretty good and thorough evaluation on the higher tiers, Witch, I made a brief outline of what I thought Kiana's power would be in each of her battlesuits (excluding HotV) purely from a quick repeat read of selective parts of the manga (+ obv the game for VD).

I think just linking it agai would bring you up to speed on our current outlook pretty quickly.
 
Diinou HotHead said:
Ah gain, here we go ashit.
Up above there are talks about how they'd be somewhere in Building level. For they are to beat up Honkai Beasts of that size.
Click to expand...
This makes sense. I think Bronya also blocks an attack from a Honkai that destroys a large building as well in volume 1.
 
The Black Hole thing is PIS, if it is a real black hole with that size, entire Earth and even the Moon will be swallow in an instance, many thing in the game is inconsistent with each other though, pretty hard for this series
 
Vietthai96 said:
The Black Hole thing is PIS, if it is a real black hole with that size, entire Earth and even the Moon will be swallow in an instance, many thing in the game is inconsistent with each other though, pretty hard for this series
Click to expand...
That's not what PIS is, but this is just a variation of the area-of-effect argument (an attack can't be Y strong because it didn't destroy X much). This strikes me as a pretty poor argument since it would demand that a black hole meet every property of one, and even though attack potency is a widely accepted idea in fiction. Area-of-effect is not what is always observed and to demand it in every case of a black hole when it meets multiple other criteria based on this site's very own standards.

Also, Welt Yang has some ability to control what is crushed and what is not curshed: "I've already drained most of my powers trying to kep the event horizon of my own black hole from crushing myelf" (2nd Eruption, chapter 28, page 10). Furthermore, Yang was going to trigger a supernova on the moon to try and take out Sirin (specififying the mass he needed to attain, the physical proteries needed) but was not worried about taking out the moon or the earth.
 
Let meKaiokenBlueGT said:
Before you provided your pretty good and thorough evaluation on the higher tiers, Witch, I made a brief outline of what I thought Kiana's power would be in each of her battlesuits (excluding HotV) purely from a quick repeat read of selective parts of the manga (+ obv the game for VD).
I think just linking it agai would bring you up to speed on our current outlook pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
Allow me settle down this black hole argument first. ^_^
 
If you're trying to imply that the Black Hole standards contradict the AoE fallacy argument, that is automatically false because Black Holes sucking up light and affecting Gravity and destroying everything is literally proof of it being rule.

Laughing at it without giving reasoning makes it immensely harder to take seriously
 
Schnee One said:
If you're trying to imply that the Black Hole standards contradict the AoE fallacy argument, that is automatically false because Black Holes sucking up light and affecting Gravity and destroying everything is literally proof of it being rule.
Click to expand...
I did actually, I also linked you the page on the criteria for Black Hole feats in fictio, they are an immensely strict criteria given that black hole feats tend to give massively outlierish results while only looking like a black hole.
 
Schnee One said:
Schnee One said:
If you're trying to imply that the Black Hole standards contradict the AoE fallacy argument, that is automatically false because Black Holes sucking up light and affecting Gravity and destroying everything is literally proof of it being rule.
Click to expand...
I did actually, I also linked you the page on the criteria for Black Hole feats in fictio
Click to expand...
I've read that page and this site's recent discussion on the topic. I provided quite a bit of proof above, but a user came in and said that beause it didn't destroy the planet then it couldn't be one. Since that user is implying that even if it has other features of a black hole, it cannot be one if it doesn't match the specific area-of-effect attributes such automatically pulling the planet apart if it is present by one, I've asked what are the other things that it needs to have and what can it miss in order to be one. That page isn't particularly clear on the required and the optional. ^_^
 
Witch Bernkastel said:
I've read that page and this site's recent discussion on the topic. I provided quite a bit of proof above, but a user came in and said that beause it didn't destroy the planet then it couldn't be one. Since that user is implying that even if it has other features of a black hole, it cannot be one if it doesn't match the specific area-of-effect attributes such automatically pulling the planet apart if it is present by one, I've asked what are the other things that it needs to have and what can it miss in order to be one. That page isn't particularly clear on the required and the optional. ^_^
Click to expand...
Welt Black hole be something something like ignore durability from my point.
 
I'll gloss over the "Not destroy the planet" part of it for the sake of making it easier, but another issue is Creating Black Holes have two major problems even if we assume it's real

1. Very rarely (If ever) does creating a Black Hole scale to physicals, often times it is treated as a seperate ability, for example a character will be labeled as "7B, High 4C with Black Hole"

2. It often produces massively outlierish results, Herrschers best feats are 7B statements that they can destroy a city.

Black holes should be discussed on a seperate thread however, I will make it so we continue there
 
Schnee One said:
I'll gloss over the "Not destroy the planet" part of it for the sake of making it easier, but another issue is Creating Black Holes have two major problems even if we assume it's real
1. Very rarely (If ever) does creating a Black Hole scale to physicals, often times it is treated as a seperate ability, for example a character will be labeled as "7B, High 4C with Black Hole"

2. It often produces massively outlierish results, Herrschers best feats are 7B statements that they can destroy a city.

Black holes should be discussed on a seperate thread however, I will make it so we continue there
Click to expand...
1) I think it brings up the distinction that while someone may not have the ability bust a planet with a punch, they can injure people who can take that amount of energy. In this case, though, he is pouring energy into something to create the them.

2) Well, these black holes are feats. There are statements that they can destroy a city, and if we're going to use statements as support then Welt Yang was going to unleash the energy of a supernova by increaseing the mass of his core to such a state and was only stopped because he was killed. If we can to see other feats, then Welt Yang created bubble universes in the Sea of Quanta, and the energy from the Core of Reason also destryoed a few bubble universes as well. There are quite a few statements, but the feats are wildly in two directions for this series. ^_^

3) Oof, no no. That's too much. I primarily came here to collect feats and get opinions on in-series scaling. The black hole feat can be a take-it-or-leave it; I don't plan to challenge the standards of any website when standards all over the place are so fluid. I don't want to focus on two threads at once. ^_^
 
1. The issue with this is that busting planet mostly has to do with your physicals and even then, that's scaling, not the feat itself

2. The feats being widely in two directions is what makes it an outlier if it were to scale to physicals.

3. Relax, black hole discussions pertain to this thread so you only have to focus on one.
 
1) I need an interpretation if this to make sure it's within the standards here: A is floating in space. A destroys a planet with an energy attack. A attacks B with the same attack, and B brushes it off/isn't too hurt by it/what-have you. C punches B, which injures B. How would C scale on this site?

2) Yes, but the feats are tending in the higher direction. Even the lower end visual feats such as Avrora's storm seem to be greater than city level. In this case, it seems that statements are being given more weight than feats.

3) Inform me how it goes. ^_^
 
1. B brushing off a black hole is not a Durability feat, Black Holes aren't physical and they destroy Matter by breaking it down on a Quabtum level, so B doesn't physically scale to it, rather he has resistance to its affects

2. Avrora's storm? Can you show me that?

3. Aight
 
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