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Higher-Dimensional Hax

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I think, with the way higher dimensions are handled on this Wiki, that it should be a case-by-case basis thing depending on the verse (Like Battler's hax vs 1-A beings, etc). That being said, this thread is not going anywhere, will only create more confusion, and may end in unscientific conclusions, so I think that it should be closed.
 
" For example, in the context of sub-atomic destruction, the electrons and protons and neutrons of a Universal being would be harder to destroy than a City level, they'd simply be tougher."

That's because of how we quantify durability for the sake of fictional fighting. In real life, an electron and a proton are the same no matter who it belongs too. This is one of the fundamental aspects of physics.

You can make an arguement of 4th dimensional protons vs 3-d protons, but 4-d protons dont' exist. We have no concept or proof of such a thing so how can we even say so surely, that a 4-d proton would be infinitely more durable? We'd just be making that up and applying it as a law which might as well be good as "cause I say so".
 
Aeyu said:
I think, with the way higher dimensions are handled on this Wiki, that it should be a case-by-case basis thing depending on the verse (Like Battler's hax vs 1-A beings, etc). That being said, this thread is not going anywhere, will only create more confusion, and may end in unscientific conclusions, so I think that it should be closed.
Click to expand...
Agreed.
 
@IAn

That's not true. There is a different between the atomic binding energy of different elements. It's why some things are tougher than others.
 
I think saying that any run of the mill mindhax user being able to incapaciate a higher dimensional entity is a total NLF.

Hax may not be conventional AP, but there are potencies and scales of hax. Janemba's reality warping is weaker than Grand Priest's. Xavier's mind manipulation is weaker than Galactus's. And countless other examples.

You can't just assume someone's hax works on any potency or scale no matter what without sufficient evidence. Or that it can defeat anyone unless they are outright shown resistant to that hax.

I mean this is basically "Prove that this character who's used their hax on nothing but fodder would stomp an entity literally infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot fathom". "Prove that it wouldn't work on them!"

INB4 Ragyo's mental refitting works on Dr. Manhattan since he's never explicitly resisted mind manipulation.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@Ryu
Obviously Sidra's Energy of Destruction can erase Zeno from existence

o3o
Click to expand...
Oh yeah another asinine idea. "Hax can't be powerscaled"

"Hyssop's ice would work on Grand Priest but not SSJ Vegeta. " "Galactus doesn't have a hax that Silver Surfer does".
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
@IAn
That's not true. There is a different between the atomic binding energy of different elements. It's why some things are tougher than others.
Click to expand...


My point was that a protein molecule belonging to a 3-C character isn't more durable than the same protein molecule belonging to a 11-A. They're the same, one isn't more durable than the other. (in real life) but for the sake of battle, we assume that the entire person, all thier atoms and molecules are as durable as in shown in story.

Which is why I disagree with the notion that higher dimensional matter is more durable than 3-D matter. We rate durability by showing. Higher dimensional matter should only be as durable as it's shown to be. We shouldn't assume it to be more durable just because of it's name sake.

@sir ovens

"Also, we can't understand the thoughts of a 2-D line, but neither can a 2-D line understand our thoughts. Given this, I'm inclined to believe that a higher dimensional that can mind hax lower dimensionals should have better mind hax than that of a lower dimensional's that can mind hax countless minds at his level.:

If you can argue that a 3-D character shouldn't be able to understand 2-D thoughts, then why should a 4-D understand 3-D thooughts? Perhaps dimensonal creatures can't comprehend anything that's not on their own level (like how a computer virus can't affect an OS it wasn't built for). So who is to say that a 4-D mind hax would work on a 3-D character?
 
@ ryu

""Prove that this character who's used their hax on nothing but fodder would stomp an entity literally infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot fathom". "Prove that it wouldn't work on them!""

Saying, "This character has never shown any resistence to this hax before and doesn't scale to any character who has resisted this hax" would be a perfect argument of why that hax would work on them.

Now of course, being susecpitable to a weaker character's hax doesn't mean you're going to automatically lose because of said hax. An 11-C with time stop can time stop a 3-A who doesn't have resistence or immunity to timestop, doesn't mean that 11-C can put them down. They can hit that 3-A with attacks from here until eternity while it's frozen in time and that still won't put them down.
 
Extraordinary circumstances require extraordinary proof.

Saying a character who is infinetly below another character can mind hax them requires proof, otherwise it's an NLF.

Abilities working on the same dimensionsal scale that characters operate on, is reasonable, hence 3-D hax works on 3-D being if they have no resistance, but to say 3-D hax which has no proof of ever operating on a 4-D scale or above, which is literally on infinite scales, works on a 4-D or above being, is NLF territory.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
you have to prove that a 10-C can mind hax a High 2-A.
Click to expand...


I would only have to prove such a thing, if it is by law (on this site) that a Higher Dimensional Character can't be affected by hax of a lower dimensional character.

The very purpose of this thread is to ask why can't a Higher D character be affected by a lower D hax? And should that be that case. So were going in circles here a bit by saying that.
 
@Iamunanimousinthat The far greater assumption is to say that a run of the mill mindhax user's powers are potent enough to work on a cosmic entity literally infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot fathom than it is to say that said cosmic entity literally infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot fathom is simply to powerful for them to beat.

You're basically saying NLF doesn't exist when it comes to hax. Or that one hax being more powerful than another isn't a thing.

Again, by this logic Ragyo and Nui curbstomp Dr. Manhattan and Myxzyptlk. Or Xavier and Galactus are equals. Or countless other ridiculous examples I could come up.
 
"Again, by this logic Ragyo and Nui curbstomp Dr. Manhattan and Myxzyptlk. Or countless other ridiculous examples I could come up."

No I'm not. That's a logical fallacy. I already gave an example of a stronger character being affected by a hax of a lower character and still in no way being defeated by them.

Being suceptible to a hax doesn't equal instant stomp. If an 11-A can give Galactus a headache, that doesn't mean Galactus is going to get stomped by a headache. (I would get stomped by a headache cause I hate headaches)

"You're basically saying NLF doesn't exist when it comes to hax."

Actually no. I am saying it's NLF to say that a character, that has never shown resistance or immunity to a hax would be immune to said hax from another character by virtue of being a higher dimensional character.
 
That absolutely is your logic. Nui and Ragyo have mind manipulation powers that instantly incapacitate their foe. But they've only ever used it on fodder and Ryuko. But because "those guys need to show a resistance" their powers now work on these cosmic entities. Despite there being absolutely no proof that their hax is on that grand of a scale or potency.

Again yes it is. You have to prove that any run of the mill mindhax user is capable of such extraordinary degrees of power. Not that it wouldn't work on these higher dimensional entities.

I'm asking you to prove it would work. You're asking to prove it wouldn't work. But the burden of proof is on if it'd work.

Also almost no series treats hax like many people on this site insist. Most hax isn't this abstract thing that absolutely works on anyone and anything where scale and potency are irrelevant. Hax is more often treated as ones' powers, and said powers can be stronger or weaker. And a person's hax not working on someone far more powerful than them is a common occurance. Not just in Dragon Ball.

The X-Men can't do shit to Skyfathers. Speed Force Trap didn't work on Superboy-Prime. Galactus's mind hax is explicitly greater than Xavier's. Kumagawa's seal only worked on Ajimu cause she allowed it to. Etc. etc.
 
"That absolutely is your logic. Nui and Ragyo have mind manipulation powers that instantly incapacitate their foe. But they've only ever used it on fodder and Ryuko. But because "they need to show a resistance" their powers now work on these cosmic entities. Despite their being absolutely no proof that their hax is on that grand of a scale or potency."

If that said cosmic entitty has zero evidence of being able to resist such a thing, then yes. I say they get affected. Because they're is no proof to say that he's resistence. Fair is fair. It's a piss poor cosmic entity. Why are we giving esteem and prowress to characters who haven't shown such feats to warrant it?

"Again yes it is. You have to prove that any run of the mill mindhax user is capable of such extraordinary degrees of power. Not that it wouldn't work on these higher dimensional entities."

And I'm saying you need to prove resistence and immunity of such hax.

"Also almost no series treats hax like many people on this site insist. Most hax isn't this abstract thing that absolutely works on anyone and anything where scale and potency are irrelevant. Hax is more often treated as ones' powers, and said powers can be stronger or weaker. And a person's hax not working on someone far more powerful than them is a common occurance. Not just in Dragon Ball."

Hxh? Sailor Moon? Doctor Who? Gravity Falls? and other series. There are so many examples of a weaker character getting it in on a stronger do to a quirk or special ability. This isn't special or unique.

"The X-Men can't do shit to Skyfathers. Speed Force Trap didn't work on Superboy-Prime. Galactus's mind hax is explicitly greater than Xavier's. Etc. etc."

There have been cases of mutants doing things to sky fathers and characters stronger than them.

And Speed Force trap not working on Superboy-Prime is a feat of resistence for Superboy-Prime. if Superboy-Prime had never shown resistence or immunity to that ability, then I bet you money people will be saying he'd be succeptible to it.

And Galactus's mind hax is greater htan Xavier's because it's shown to be. I can pull up scan right now, of Xavier trying to affect Galactus's mind and it not working. Which is a resistence feat for Galactus. I don't assume Galactus can't be affected by Xavier because he is Galactus, I know he can't be affected because it's literally shown that he was not.
 
I'm not saying hax beating stronger people isn't a thing. But hax being this godly NLF that works on anyone regardless of potency or scale isn't a thing.

Citation? Even then it's most likely PIS. Plus I'm talking about regular X-Men not the ultra powerful mutants.

It didn't work on him cause he was too stronk. He resisted it through his power. Not an uncommon thing again.

Which proves my point. Xavier doesn't have this uber hax that works on anyone and has no limits. It's a power of his that is weaker than anothers' power. It has limitations. It can't work on people of certain powers.

^ This is what the default assumption should be with anyone. We assume that a character has limits and pinpoint said limit at their highest non-outlier showing. We don't assume that they have no limits and can work on anyone or overpowers any other power unless shown to be. That's the premise of NLF.

Then again let's have a form of debating where The Living Tribunal gets reiatsu crushed. Lucifer Morningstar gets wacked out by Itachi's illusions. Ragyo and Galactus's mind hax stalemates one another's. Monster Carrot pokes Super Shenron into oblivion. Spongebob's eraser beats hakai. And so on and so forth.
 
"I'm not saying hax beating power isn't a thing. But hax being this godly NLF that works on anyone regardless of potency or scale isn't a thing."

When did I say that? Mind hax that can affect a country full of people can't affect a person who resisted mind hax that affected a planet full of people. That's potency and scale.

All I'm saying, is that if a character has zero showings of being neither resistent or immune to an ability, we shouldn't assume they are resistent on the basis that they're a higher dimension as that I believe is extremely abritary.

"Citation? Even then it's most likely PIS. Plus I'm talking about regular X-Men not the ultra powerful mutants."

That's bit moving the goal post don't you think?

"Which proves my point. Xavier doesn't have this uber hax that works on anyone and has no limits. It's a power of his that is weaker than anothers' power. It has limitations. It can't work on people of certain powers."

Again? When did I say that hax works on anyone and has no limits. I specifically said it should work on someone who has zero resisteance and no immunties. Tha'ts not anyone and with no limits. Obviously a character with resistences and immunity will not be affected by hax.

"Then again let's have a form of debating where The Living Tribunal gets reiatsu crushed. Lucifer Morningstar gets wacked out by Itachi's illusions. Ragy and Galactus's mind hax stalemates one another's. Monster Carrot touches Super Shenron into oblivion. And so on and so forth."

Now you're just being ridiculous. All those characters have shown a plethora of ressitences to multiple abilities of such kind or scale to charactesr who do. Let's not throw strawman around.

I am specifically talking about characters that have shown zero resistence and zero immunities and do not scale to anyone who does.
 
"When did I say that?"

Your entire thesis that someone can hax higher dimensional cosmic entities who are infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot even fathom is to say that scale and potency of hax aren't a thing.

"All I'm saying, is that if a character has zero showings of being neither resistent or immune to an ability, we shouldn't assume they are resistent on the basis that they're a higher dimension as that I believe is extremely abritary."

Again, it's a far more reasonable assumption than the arbitrary nature of "They haven't shown a limit so their hax has no limit"

"That's bit moving the goal post don't you think?"

What me asking you to back up your claim with evidence? Me specifying what my original point was? My opinion that a showing of someone like Deadpool or Wolverine taking on a Skyfather is PIS? None of those are goalpost moves.

"Again? When did I say that hax works on anyone and has no limits. I specifically said it should work on someone who has zero resisteance and no immunties. Tha'ts not anyone and with no limits. Obviously a character with resistences and immunity will not be affected by hax."

"I'm not saying nothing kills Ganon. I'm saying nothing but Master Sword kills Ganon". It's still a NLF to say that these peoples' powers work on anyone, including those of infinitely greater scale and potency, unless they have shown an explicit resistance. Just because you add a anything/nothing but ___ doesn't mean it's now not a NLF. "This power works regardless of power on absolutely anyone ever but those with resistance" is still a NLF.

"Now you're just being ridiculous. All those characters have shown a plethora of ressitences to multiple abilities of such kind or scale to charactesr who do. Let's not throw strawman around.

I am specifically talking about characters that have shown zero resistence and zero immunities and do not scale to anyone who does. "

I'm sorry that you think your own logic is ridiculous.

  • Living Tribunal never resisted a reiatsu crush
  • Lucifer never resisted illusions
  • Ragyo's never shown that her mind hax has limits that rely on potency and scale. Therefore we can assume it can contend against any other form of the power.
  • Super Shenron has never resisted a touch from Monster Carrot.
  • Also why do Lucifer and LT get resistances they've never shown just because they're super powerful? Why are we adding powers to them for the arbitrary reason of their strength?
^ Again purely needing to show a resistance or a limitation in all cases is a wild slippery slope.
 
"Your entire thesis that someone can hax higher dimensional cosmic entities who are infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot even fathom is to say that scale and potency of hax aren't a thing."

False.

My thesis, that hax should work on characters that haven't shown resistence to them or immunity them and a character being, a higher dimension is an arbitary reason as to why it wouldn't work.

"Again, it's a far more reasonable assumption that the arbitrary nature of "They haven't shown a limit so their hax has no limit""

I have literally never said this. I never said, A person who can mind hax a planet shouldn't work against summon whose resisted mind hax across a solar system.

Limit obviously stops when they reach a character who is shown to be more resistent or immunity.

"What me asking you to back up your claim with evidence? Me specifying what my original point was? My opinion that a showing of someone like Deadpool or Wolverine taking on a Skyfather is PIS? None of those are goalpost moves."

You can't claim, "x-men can't do anythign to skyfathers' and then say even if they can, it's PIS. that's moving the goalpst. What's the point of bringing up scans if youve already stated you'll disregard them.

""I'm not saying nothing kills Ganon. I'm saying nothing but Master Sword kills Ganon". It's still a NLF to say that these peoples' powers work on anyone, including those of infinitely greater scale and potency, unless they have shown an explicit resistance."

I have never argued for such a thing and you're being disingenous. Also verse equivalency says hello.

"I'm sorry that you think your own logic is ridiculous.

  • Living Tribunal never resisted a reiatsu crush
  • Lucifer never resisted illusions
  • Ragyo's never shown that her mind hax has limits that rely on potency and scale. Therefore we can assume it can contend against any other form of the power.
  • Super Shenron has never resisted a touch from Monster Carrot.
"


The Lviing Tribunal has never resisted attacks with soul energy before or scales to anyone who has?

Lucifer has never resisted mind manipulation before or scales to anyone who has?

Anyone who has shown resistance to the scale of which Ragyo's mind hax was shown to wil resist her ability. Anyone who dosen't will be affected.

And you know, Dragonball verse has an "in story" law that characters can't affect characters with more or stronger Ki. Super Shenron. Anyways, Super Shenron, from my memory hasn't shown any resitence to transmutation, so any character that can trasnmuate things on a scale of Multi-galaxy (Cause transmuation is a physical ability and scales to size and range) can transmutate him.
 
People who disagree: VenomElite, Sera Loveheart, The Everlasting, Dragonmasterxyz, Celestial Pegasus, Promestein, Myself, ThePerpetual, Sir Ovens, Aeyu, Ryukama, Antvasima,
 
Also, please make an effort to behave in a patient, polite and friendly manner while visiting this community.
 
Again. Prove that it works on them. I'm not proving that it won't. Debate doesn't work that way

So if I say Batman doesn't have a multiversal kick and claim the instance where he hurt Spectre is PIS, that's a goalpost move? Under normal circumstances Deadpool and Wolverine have no business contending with a Skyfather. And you have no business claiming they have if you won't give a citation.

Not being disengenous. You can't just call something a false equivalency then do nothing to actually show why the analogy is invalid. You're essentially saying "It's not a NLF cause I didn't say they work on anyone. I said they work on anyone but those with a resistance." My point is "That doesn't mean it's not a NLF. Or else "It's not a NLF cause I didn't say Ganon survives anything. I said he survives anything but Magic Sword"

Citation that LT and Lucifer have? I'm not arguing that they legit wouldn't resist these powers. I'm pointing out the flaws in this line of thinking.

Actually it doesn't. Dragon Ball has both examples of hax working and not working on stronger people. Super Shenron never resisted the touch. Why are we assuming he can?

Why does Monster Carrot have to now prove that his powers work on such vast scales, yet every mind hax user ever doesn't have to prove that their powers work on such vast scales? Also Monster Carrot's powers are magical turning poofing into things, not physical atomic/molecular hax per say.
 
Anyways feel free to disagree with me. Rest of the users here feel free to agree with whoever you want. Say whatever you want I'm not going to stop you or close this thread. I delayed my exercise routine and school work ridiculously for this conversation. I want to get those taken care of before it's too late.

Let me give one final example.

It has been explicitly said that nothing but Jack's sword can kill Aku. Nothing but Jack's sword has killed Aku. So are we going to say Galactus can't kill Aku? No? Why?

Why are we attributing Jack's Sword to Galactus? Galactus has never shown to possess Jack's sword. Galactus has never shown able to replicate Jack's sword. Why are we saying Galactus can still kill Aku anyways? It's a NLF based on arbitrary proof right?

Actually it's because Aku has never survived anything on the scale of Galactus. So even if Galactus doesn't have Jack's Sword, we don't make the NLF that he couldn't kill Aku.

Same works with your run of the mill mindhax user.

The user has never shown anything on the scale of mindhaxing a cosmic entity infinitely superior to them whose existence they cannot fathom. So even if that being doesn't have resistance, we don't make the NLF that they couldn't survive that hax.

Now I've said my peace. Good bye for now.
 
I've said what I've had to say. I feel as though I"m just repeating myself. People can agree or disagree, I 've said my peace which is what I just wanted to do in the first place.

And for you last example, verse equivalency takes care of such abitary things like, "only x can defeat character". Just like only nen can only affect other nen in HxH. Verse equivalency will have nen be equivalent with ki, magic, etc. Jack's sword would be equivalent to Link's master sword, to Sailor Venus's sword and any weapon from any verse.

When I say hax, I speak in general. Not specific plot points and maguffins.
 
Verse equlization does not change the fact that just like we don't assume Aku can survive things of vastly greater scale than anything he's shown cause "nothing but Jack's sword can kill him". Just as we don't assume any mindhax user can do things with their hax of vastly greater scale than anything it's shown cause "nothing but those with a shown resistance can survive it".
 
Ryukama said:
Verse equlization does not change the fact that we don't assume Aku can survive things of vastly greater scale than anything he's shown cause "nothing but Jack's sword can kill him". Just as we don't assume any mindhax user can do things with their hax of vastly greater scale than anything it's shown cause "nothing but those with a shown resistance can survive it".
Click to expand...
I'm not advocating that at all. Aku can only survive what's he shown to survie. Anything greater than what's he's shown to be resist, will do him in becasue he lacks resistence which goes with my main argument that characters can only resist what they've shown to resist.
 
Iamunanimousinthat said:
I'm not advocating that at all. Aku can only survive what's he shown to survie. Anything greater than what's he's shown to be resist, will do him in becasue he lacks resistence which goes with my main argument that characters can only resist what they've shown to resist.
Click to expand...
And run of the mill mindhax user can only hax on scales they've shown able to. Anything far greater (like say a cosmic entity infinitely greater than them whose existence the user cannot fathom) does them in because they lack potency of hax.

The better route is to go that the mindhax user has to prove it'd work. Not that the cosmic entity has to prove it wouldn't. Like how Aku has to prove he'd survive Galactus. Not that Galactus has to prove he'd kill Aku without Jack's sword.

Often we have to choose between two assumptions. Perhaps both this person would mindhax the cosmic entity and this cosmic entity would resist it are assumptions. But the latter assumption is much more reasonable than the former.
 
@Matthew

No, this suggestion has been very firmly rejected. I will close the thread.
 
Sorry to reopen but I just wanted to let Iamunaminousinthat know that I have nothing against you personally. Just a simple disagreement. I greatly apologize if I have said something that offended you or gave you the impression of something personal. I have no hard feelings for you. And I ultimately respect your opinion even if I disagree with it.

Just wanted to say that since this is the closest thing to a heated argument I've had in ages.
 
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