- 8,675
- 5,560
Right or wrong, let's chill. Hostility and accusations don't help anyone and anything
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Higher-Dimensional Hax
- Thread starter EliminatorVenom
- Start date
- Status
- 2,711
- 161
yeah mind is ur conscious. its things that are not related to living beings already pre-programmed things (like eating, walking, pooping, etc)- the mind is different- its related to what colors u like, who is hot or not, why is the water so goddamn ******* cold!?!?! etc..
- 14,956
- 1,831
That depends entirely on the mechanics of the mind hax if you are required to comprehend the mind you are trying to manipulate then sure. If not then I dont think so.VenomElite said:
- 33,408
- 8,430
This is becoming a huge mess for no reason. All we needed was a simple answer to a question.
- 1,092
- 919
My friend, you cannot affect what you don't even know exists because it is immeasurably beyond your reach.
- 14,956
- 1,831
It was never going to be simple. This has a lot of implications and interperations.Dragonmasterxyz said:
- 3,508
- 1,371
I mean, lets' be real here and scientific. In Real world, here on earth, a mind is a biological brain. Electrons firing through neurons. We have zero evidence or any notion of what a higher dimenionsal mind (if something like that can even exist) would look like or how it would be different from our biological one.
In fiction, mind are usually represent a abrasct consciousness, as things that don't have brains can have minds like robots, objects, ghosts, etc. (in Bowser's inside story, individual cells have minds too) So when we say, higher dimensional mind? What does that even mean exactly? That the mind is more infinitely abstract? More infinitely conscious? Abstract and consciousness aren't things that can be understood in terms of quantity. You're either abstract or you're not. You're either conscious or you're not.
In fiction, mind are usually represent a abrasct consciousness, as things that don't have brains can have minds like robots, objects, ghosts, etc. (in Bowser's inside story, individual cells have minds too) So when we say, higher dimensional mind? What does that even mean exactly? That the mind is more infinitely abstract? More infinitely conscious? Abstract and consciousness aren't things that can be understood in terms of quantity. You're either abstract or you're not. You're either conscious or you're not.
- 2,711
- 161
i will say that maybe the mind hax could control how the 4d being's body works and things like that, but it will never have any sort of control over anything more complicated than that.
- 32,359
- 20,298
In Warhammer 40,000 when Psykers try to mindhax Daemons or make psychic contact with Daemons they tend to go insane because they can't comprehend such an entity.
Similar things happen in MARVEL when people try to mindhax Galactus. A 3 D being can't comprehend and had the mind of a 4D being.
Similar things happen in MARVEL when people try to mindhax Galactus. A 3 D being can't comprehend and had the mind of a 4D being.
- 3,508
- 1,371
Not knowing something exists doesn't mean you can't effect it. As knowing something and affecting are two different concepts. As there are lots of things we do know that we can't affect.VenomElite said:
- 2,711
- 161
affecting and having full control over it two different things.
- 1,092
- 919
Nooo.
- 2,711
- 161
u alright lol?
- 14,956
- 1,831
You dont have to have full control over it to mind hax it.
- 3,323
- 1,861
- Thread starter
- #95
... Wait, a legit question of mine got called off as a thread made out of a petty reason?
To be honest, I'm slightly offended.
Anyway, I heavily disagree with 4D souls being more complex than 3D souls. I'd like to not have this thread closed, since by tomorrow I'll post a text explaining why.
To be honest, I'm slightly offended.
Anyway, I heavily disagree with 4D souls being more complex than 3D souls. I'd like to not have this thread closed, since by tomorrow I'll post a text explaining why.
- 1,092
- 919
I'm fine lol.
- 2,711
- 161
then whats the point of the mind hax? isn't that what said power is for? to mind control things? to mind read and such things? for that to happen, basic knowledge is needed (aka comprehension), and mental strength. 4d being has both, but on a much higher lvl, in the first place.
- 15,332
- 7,563
Just waiting for the wall of text Eliminator said he'd post. He has done it before.
- 3,508
- 1,371
VenomElite said:
I disagree with this. A mind is more of your abstract consciousness. Decoding system would mean a basic computer program has a mind.
- 2,711
- 161
we shall see. im kinda impartial on this. i lean to one of the sides, but u never know lolKepekley23 said:
- 15,332
- 7,563
By the way Edu, is it fine for us to close this now (it's kinda out of control)? You can PM me to reopen it once you're done typing your arguments up.
- 1,092
- 919
It was a metaphor of sorts. Computers decode information as do our minds.
- 8,675
- 5,560
Most of the people on this thread are being condescending and confrontational so collectively chill the **** out instead of derailing things with accusations, petty comments, and passive aggression, else the thread's gonna get closed, everyone's gonna be upset, and people are gonna get ******* warnings.
- 33,408
- 8,430
>Career Ending
What?
People just calm the hell down.
What?
People just calm the hell down.
- 8,675
- 5,560
Everyone, stop with the irrelevant comments.
- 15,332
- 7,563
It's because I know what he will post (sorta), since he has done it in other threads before.
Regardless, you're not helping at all, Matt.
Regardless, you're not helping at all, Matt.
- 15,332
- 7,563
This thread has been reopened as per EliminatorVenom's request, since he has mustered a counter-argument and will post it here.
The same rules (don't derail) still apply. Additionally, since we're trying to get our shit together from this bad week, we should probably calm our kokoros the hell down and act like staff members, not rule violators. This also goes for me, lol.
Thanks.
The same rules (don't derail) still apply. Additionally, since we're trying to get our shit together from this bad week, we should probably calm our kokoros the hell down and act like staff members, not rule violators. This also goes for me, lol.
Thanks.
- 3,323
- 1,861
- Thread starter
- #108
@Kep
Don't give me credit, I'm actually horrid at this.
First of all, I'd like to point out that Mind Manipulation sometimes can be really simple, while really powerful. An abstract command such as "follow me" is the same, no matter the dimensional number. How will they follow? That may be different, depending on how they traverse space-time, but the general concept will be the same. I can say the same as other abstract commands such as "stay still".
Second of all, inferior dimensional entities ''can'' comprehend higher-dimensional constructs. Geometry is the very study of that, and we can even replicate the shadow of a tesseract. We have whole sciences dedicated to their studies, and there are even mathematical equations using them. What we ''can't'' do is imagining living in higher dimensions or objects in higher dimensions, but let's be honest here: Can you do the same with lower dimensions? Can you think how you'd live in 0 dimensions? Can you grasp how it would be living as a line? Or even living with two dimensions, with 20 cm height, 20 cm length and 0 width? And do not say you can compare it to living like a 2D game, because even that projection isn't truly 2D, and neither would it replicate a true 2D living experience. The only way you can really conceive something like that is by seeing something similar in the 3D world, and the same would happen if you saw a 4D entity or construct.
Thirdly, mentality isn't the result of dimensionality, it is of biological evolution and society development. A 4D dog isn't more intelligent than a 2D mathematician, not by a loooong range. Neither is morality, nor spirituality (Something I'd like to address someday). Also, intelligence is a relative and arbitrary concept, with what one may consider as "intelligent" may not be in another person's conception. A 4D, 5D or even ID dog isn't more intelligent than a 2D mathematician in most aspects. Even assuming an ID dog that has absolute grasp and isn't minimally mentally affected by gazing at something with infinite dimensions, it doesn't means at all that he is capable of performing E=mc┬▓, simple calculus and the like.
Finally, about souls and spirituality. Spirits, souls and the alike have '''nothing''' to do with dimensions. I will make a separate post about it, since it could wind up as being awfully long, but souls are the manifestations of the very principle of living, thoughts and morality of one's being, as detailed in the dictionary. Souls are souls, separate of time, space, energy and the likes. They haven't transcended the hierarchical system, mind you ― they are separate from it, distinct values that have no influence in each other, since a soul is immaterial and immortal, disconnected by time and space. A soul is a soul, no matter the tier and dimensional status of one being ― it is always the collective of one's very essence and thoughts, and unless directly stated so, always "equal" in a metaphysical sense. (Except in some religious systems, in which... Uh, I guess I'll make a post about it later)
EDIT: I give credit to Kevyn Souza, most of it is almost entirely his doing, and tbh I learned more about said matters thanks to him, and really, nothing here is new - I'll just try to grow my arguments from here.
Don't give me credit, I'm actually horrid at this.
First of all, I'd like to point out that Mind Manipulation sometimes can be really simple, while really powerful. An abstract command such as "follow me" is the same, no matter the dimensional number. How will they follow? That may be different, depending on how they traverse space-time, but the general concept will be the same. I can say the same as other abstract commands such as "stay still".
Second of all, inferior dimensional entities ''can'' comprehend higher-dimensional constructs. Geometry is the very study of that, and we can even replicate the shadow of a tesseract. We have whole sciences dedicated to their studies, and there are even mathematical equations using them. What we ''can't'' do is imagining living in higher dimensions or objects in higher dimensions, but let's be honest here: Can you do the same with lower dimensions? Can you think how you'd live in 0 dimensions? Can you grasp how it would be living as a line? Or even living with two dimensions, with 20 cm height, 20 cm length and 0 width? And do not say you can compare it to living like a 2D game, because even that projection isn't truly 2D, and neither would it replicate a true 2D living experience. The only way you can really conceive something like that is by seeing something similar in the 3D world, and the same would happen if you saw a 4D entity or construct.
Thirdly, mentality isn't the result of dimensionality, it is of biological evolution and society development. A 4D dog isn't more intelligent than a 2D mathematician, not by a loooong range. Neither is morality, nor spirituality (Something I'd like to address someday). Also, intelligence is a relative and arbitrary concept, with what one may consider as "intelligent" may not be in another person's conception. A 4D, 5D or even ID dog isn't more intelligent than a 2D mathematician in most aspects. Even assuming an ID dog that has absolute grasp and isn't minimally mentally affected by gazing at something with infinite dimensions, it doesn't means at all that he is capable of performing E=mc┬▓, simple calculus and the like.
Finally, about souls and spirituality. Spirits, souls and the alike have '''nothing''' to do with dimensions. I will make a separate post about it, since it could wind up as being awfully long, but souls are the manifestations of the very principle of living, thoughts and morality of one's being, as detailed in the dictionary. Souls are souls, separate of time, space, energy and the likes. They haven't transcended the hierarchical system, mind you ― they are separate from it, distinct values that have no influence in each other, since a soul is immaterial and immortal, disconnected by time and space. A soul is a soul, no matter the tier and dimensional status of one being ― it is always the collective of one's very essence and thoughts, and unless directly stated so, always "equal" in a metaphysical sense. (Except in some religious systems, in which... Uh, I guess I'll make a post about it later)
EDIT: I give credit to Kevyn Souza, most of it is almost entirely his doing, and tbh I learned more about said matters thanks to him, and really, nothing here is new - I'll just try to grow my arguments from here.
- 32,359
- 20,298
I will respond to all of this later when I'm home. Everyone, don't jump to conclusions or act like the thread is over.
Thank you.
Thank you.
- 15,332
- 7,563
I will go ahead and say I agree with Eliminator's points.
- 16,176
- 9,418
But Ven, given your explanation, how are we to rate hax now? Can Xavier beat Luke in a telepathic battle? Can High 1-B Emperor be mind haxed by a lower dimensional? All these under the assumption that the 'mind' remains the same on every level of existence.
Can mind hax even correlate to the tiering system at this point?
Can mind hax even correlate to the tiering system at this point?
- 32,359
- 20,298
Yes it can, the mind of a higher dimensional being is unfathomably more complex than that of a lower-dimensional being. The "mind" is literally just the decoding system for how our senses perceive the world around it, coupled with your brain's processing capability and your memories and experiences.
We definitely cannot understand higher-dimensional space in anything but the most cursory, theoretical ways. We can't conceive of how the 4th Dimensional actually is or looks. The most we can have is the shadow of a 4D cube. A higher-dimensional being would perceive and comprehend everything around itself in a way we can't even begin to accurately imagine.
As four the soul, it tends to be the incorporeal essence of a being, and it would likewise follow through with the complexity of the being. There are many Verses where souls are higher-dimensional, or even beyond dimensions entirely.
Dimensions in fiction and how we tend to treat them in the Tiering System aren't just axis of movement, they are often used as ways to explain and express higher states of reality and higher beings.
We definitely cannot understand higher-dimensional space in anything but the most cursory, theoretical ways. We can't conceive of how the 4th Dimensional actually is or looks. The most we can have is the shadow of a 4D cube. A higher-dimensional being would perceive and comprehend everything around itself in a way we can't even begin to accurately imagine.
As four the soul, it tends to be the incorporeal essence of a being, and it would likewise follow through with the complexity of the being. There are many Verses where souls are higher-dimensional, or even beyond dimensions entirely.
Dimensions in fiction and how we tend to treat them in the Tiering System aren't just axis of movement, they are often used as ways to explain and express higher states of reality and higher beings.
- 3,508
- 1,371
By feats?Sir Ovens said:
If a Xavier has better mind hax feats than Luke and better resistances then yes. he should be able to. And if a a High 1-B has no showings of mental resistance, then they simply don't get mental resistance. If a lower dimensional character has better feats, then they should come out on top in terms of mind hax. (now if a high 1-B is losing battles to lower dimensional character do to lack of hax that just says something about that high 1-B imo)
The way I see it: There are two either ways:
1. Higher dimensional characters are completely unaffected by lower dimensional characters across the board.
2. Hax is tier less, and any character can be subjected to the hax of another character.
- 32,359
- 20,298
Hax is not tierless, it goes with the tiers. For example, in the context of sub-atomic destruction, the electrons and protons and neutrons of a Universal being would be harder to destroy than a City level, they'd simply be tougher. Same with Spatial and Temporal Manipulation for Higher-Dimensional beings. Also manipulation of non-euclidean higher-dimensional matter is more impressive.
Same with Souls and Minds, both are more complex in higher-dimensional levels of reality.
Same with Souls and Minds, both are more complex in higher-dimensional levels of reality.
- 16,176
- 9,418
The problem with feats is that Ven's statements completely deconstructs them. If a 1-A only ever had feats of mind haxing another 1-A, would Luke's mind hax be better considering he has mind haxed more than just one person?
- 32,359
- 20,298
It wouldn't, no. The concept of a mind as a 3-Dimensional being understands it would not apply to a 5th Dimensional being, much lesss a being beyond-dimensions entirely.
- 2,861
- 224
I feel the problem with trying to quantify hax, in many instances, is that the metaphysics of any given fictional verse may be dramatically different from that of another verse.
Matthew's points generally make sense on paper, if one is to consider the physicality of spatial/temporal dimensions wrapped up too heavily in our concepts of the psyche/the soul to seperate in that manner, but then one might also run into instances where, say, a 3-D character's soul manipulation works on a 4-D character to whatever degree just as effectively as it does a 3-D character. Logically, this might give the 3-D character a "4-D" soul resistance, but...?
I dunno. I will say there is also a difference between 4-D attack potency and durability, and then actually existing as a 4-dimensional being, in many cases in fiction- I suppose I don't know how compatible that is with our current tiering system, either.
Matthew's points generally make sense on paper, if one is to consider the physicality of spatial/temporal dimensions wrapped up too heavily in our concepts of the psyche/the soul to seperate in that manner, but then one might also run into instances where, say, a 3-D character's soul manipulation works on a 4-D character to whatever degree just as effectively as it does a 3-D character. Logically, this might give the 3-D character a "4-D" soul resistance, but...?
I dunno. I will say there is also a difference between 4-D attack potency and durability, and then actually existing as a 4-dimensional being, in many cases in fiction- I suppose I don't know how compatible that is with our current tiering system, either.
- 16,176
- 9,418
Also, to rebut Ven's statement about constructing shadows of higher dimensional constructs and understanding them, we can understand higher dimensions as an abstract concept and even form constructs to give us a clearer picture of it, but ultimately we can't comprehend them. Not in a way a higher dimensional would.
A klein bottle can't be truly constructed in a 3-D realm, but it makes sense in higher dimensions. Just like how ideas and thoughts in a higher dimension cannot be comprehended by a lower dimensional unless said lower dimensional had the appropriate hax.
Also, we can't understand the thoughts of a 2-D line, but neither can a 2-D line understand our thoughts. Given this, I'm inclined to believe that a higher dimensional that can mind hax lower dimensionals should have better mind hax than that of a lower dimensional's that can mind hax countless minds at his level.
A klein bottle can't be truly constructed in a 3-D realm, but it makes sense in higher dimensions. Just like how ideas and thoughts in a higher dimension cannot be comprehended by a lower dimensional unless said lower dimensional had the appropriate hax.
Also, we can't understand the thoughts of a 2-D line, but neither can a 2-D line understand our thoughts. Given this, I'm inclined to believe that a higher dimensional that can mind hax lower dimensionals should have better mind hax than that of a lower dimensional's that can mind hax countless minds at his level.
- Status
Similar threads
