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High-Godly and True-Godly Regenerationn revisions (Staff only)
- Thread starter The_King_of_Prudence
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Citation needed for the first part. I see big differences between having your soul shattered and having it utterly erased.Overlord775 said:
Citation needed again. There is no definition of conceptual erasure across all of fiction, and if there is, send me the memo.
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That would be more of a temporal erasure, of course, is also possible than that a Metaphysical Erasure produce the same effects.
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But, let's just play ball and go with what you said. CE as you've desctibed it doesn't actually erase you from a superior level. It's just a conceptual expression of EE just as Narrative Erasure is just EE from a plot/story (meta-fictional) perspective.
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Yeah, I mentioned that there's a difference between having body, mind, and soul erased, and being "Completely erased from the pages of history". The former is Mid-Godly, while the other is High-Godly?
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@Moritza
example being DB Super calling Erasure destruction and ... uh ... doesn't come to mind anythin else at the moment.
@Sera
That's just the way we threat Type 2 Concept hax
2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.
If you concept is destroyed, you can't exist anymore, as the concept that made you "you" isn't no longer present.
it also works outside the flux of time, so it affects present, past and future, so you have never even existed.
example being DB Super calling Erasure destruction and ... uh ... doesn't come to mind anythin else at the moment.
@Sera
That's just the way we threat Type 2 Concept hax
2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.
If you concept is destroyed, you can't exist anymore, as the concept that made you "you" isn't no longer present.
it also works outside the flux of time, so it affects present, past and future, so you have never even existed.
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If this is truly what you have been arguing for this whole time, then it has been conveyed very poorly. My other point is, being erased completely, even if stated in verse, can never be proven true, without statements that cannot be verified.Sera EX said:
Please tell me if I am wrong, because it sounds like you are saying that Conceptual Existence Erasure is not above Existence Erasure, despite the fact that Conceptual Existence Erasure would naturally do everything EE does in addition to erasing the target's concept. Also, your definition is definitely too limited and flawed. If one of your main points was the avoid variability between verses, then it has failed
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They would still have it, just like how an explicitly materialist character regenerating their whole body would be mid-godly.
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@Moritzva
Yes. I guess the broad definition of "existence" is what was confusing you. Mind, body, and soul is an individual's existence, so when I said "erased from existence" in relation to high godly, I'm referring to existence itself, i.e. the cosmology, be that history or reality (or both), the plot (such as with narrative erasure) etc.
Also, side note, no "time regen", just regen from being erased from history. That's completely different than being acausal and thus cannot be erased from history to begin with.
I know Bambu striked it out but boy do people quickly misrepresent things said by others.
Yes. I guess the broad definition of "existence" is what was confusing you. Mind, body, and soul is an individual's existence, so when I said "erased from existence" in relation to high godly, I'm referring to existence itself, i.e. the cosmology, be that history or reality (or both), the plot (such as with narrative erasure) etc.
Also, side note, no "time regen", just regen from being erased from history. That's completely different than being acausal and thus cannot be erased from history to begin with.
I know Bambu striked it out but boy do people quickly misrepresent things said by others.
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"I'm referring to existence itself "
we've been discussing the entire thread, that this shouldn't be what High-Godly is
Regenerating from being erased + existance is just Mid-Godly + the ability to survive in a timeless void
The universe isn't a factor in Regenerationn, as it isn't even part of the character itself.
we've been discussing the entire thread, that this shouldn't be what High-Godly is
Regenerating from being erased + existance is just Mid-Godly + the ability to survive in a timeless void
The universe isn't a factor in Regenerationn, as it isn't even part of the character itself.
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If this is truly what you have been arguing for this whole time, then it has been conveyed very poorly.
It hasn't :/
I've made it clear that I don't want "muh conceptual erasure" or plot erasure to be considered objectively superior to being erased from existence as the "existence" and the cosmology can include things like concepts, plot, etc.
It hasn't :/
I've made it clear that I don't want "muh conceptual erasure" or plot erasure to be considered objectively superior to being erased from existence as the "existence" and the cosmology can include things like concepts, plot, etc.
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Alright. Sera's points stand well with me and the line seems cleared and defined. Mid-Godly is body and spiritual, while High-Godly is body, spiritual, and then something more (such as aforementioned plot, reality, etc).
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Regenerating from being erased + existance is just Mid-Godly + the ability to survive in a timeless void
You people don't listen. That is not Mid-Godly, if it is then a great number of characters need to be downgraded to Low-Godly. One thing about this site is starting to get on my nerves more than anything is the wishy-washy indecisive aspect of it. We all can't agree on everything but let's not have double-standards that last years, okay?
You people don't listen. That is not Mid-Godly, if it is then a great number of characters need to be downgraded to Low-Godly. One thing about this site is starting to get on my nerves more than anything is the wishy-washy indecisive aspect of it. We all can't agree on everything but let's not have double-standards that last years, okay?
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I also never said the "universe" is a factor, as you should know in the most basic sense of the term, it's just the cosmos. I never said the universe had to be destroyed either so what the heck does a "timeless void" have to do with this?
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i don't see how that is the case, Low-Godly implies that there's thing some immaterial part of you left, while Mid-Godly is total erasure/destruction of physical and immaterial.
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Why is Mid Godly the only regen with layers to it? For example Low Godly regen isn't "complete physical destruction + something else". Adding EE to Mid Godly is too much when physical and metaphysical Regenerationn is enough to distinguish it from Low Godly, which is just physical Regenerationn.
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@Sera
Cosmos without it meaning "Universe" is completly meaningless
and you are wrong, Mid-Godly is not the only regen tier with layers, as High goes from particles down to quantum strings.
also, some Low-Godly allow you to heal damage to the soul, while others don't.
EE is the first and foremost way to destroy someone both physically and metaphysically
Cosmos without it meaning "Universe" is completly meaningless
and you are wrong, Mid-Godly is not the only regen tier with layers, as High goes from particles down to quantum strings.
also, some Low-Godly allow you to heal damage to the soul, while others don't.
EE is the first and foremost way to destroy someone both physically and metaphysically
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I agree with Overlord775's points. Personally, the current defintion of Mid-Godly Regenerationn is fine so I think changing it is unnecessary.
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Really getting annoyed here.
Of course High goes down to quantum strings, but the difference between high and low godly isn't painfully arbitrary like the difference between mid and high godly.
If Mid Godly goes all the way to EE, high godly should not exist. It's completely illogical to assume erasing you on a "conceptual level" is superior to erasing you from history, reality, the narrative, etc. they are different expressions of the same thing and it is extremely rare a verse even makes a distinction that, for example, being erased from the plot > conceptual erasure > existence erasure in that precise order.
I'm trying to not lose my cool here, but what we aren't going to for is make up types for a power/ability just to hold the most specific and distinguished verses in existence up on their own little pedestal. We can't afford to continue spreading misinformation any further, it's damaged us enough as it is.
Of course High goes down to quantum strings, but the difference between high and low godly isn't painfully arbitrary like the difference between mid and high godly.
If Mid Godly goes all the way to EE, high godly should not exist. It's completely illogical to assume erasing you on a "conceptual level" is superior to erasing you from history, reality, the narrative, etc. they are different expressions of the same thing and it is extremely rare a verse even makes a distinction that, for example, being erased from the plot > conceptual erasure > existence erasure in that precise order.
I'm trying to not lose my cool here, but what we aren't going to for is make up types for a power/ability just to hold the most specific and distinguished verses in existence up on their own little pedestal. We can't afford to continue spreading misinformation any further, it's damaged us enough as it is.
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What if being erased from history, reality, narrative, etc was High-Godly?
You say that you don't want Conceptual Erasure to be strictly better than that. Well, for one, that sounds better than Mid-Godly being simply spiritual + body.
Frankly, I'm a bit confused, because Mid-Godly keeps jumping from "Destruction of body and spirit" to "Erasure of everything" and High-Godly keeps changing from "Erasure of everything" to "Shouldn't exist at all".
You say that you don't want Conceptual Erasure to be strictly better than that. Well, for one, that sounds better than Mid-Godly being simply spiritual + body.
Frankly, I'm a bit confused, because Mid-Godly keeps jumping from "Destruction of body and spirit" to "Erasure of everything" and High-Godly keeps changing from "Erasure of everything" to "Shouldn't exist at all".
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More or less what I suggested time ago, regenerating from being ultimately erased, like, at all levels. Plus a doubt, would destroy the soul of someone without affecting the body, and then regenerating its soul, would be considered Mid-Godly?
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I agree with Sera, it's kind of best to wrap this up soon.
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I planned to create blog to discuss some of the points presented here, but as the discussion is just ending I think we just really need to better define the requirements for each level, and make it something generic (One reason I disagree with descriptions that require concepts , narrative or things like that is because they are super specific factors).
Regenerationn can be defined in a basic way as the process in which a being recreates destroyed parts of its own being through the remaining parts. If we are working with regenerating through souls and other things, we are assuming that the being is composed of a varied number of levels/layers of its own existence. It may just be the body, the body plus soul, the body plus soul and something else, something like that was undefined depending on the franchise in question.
Here we work primarily with the physical abilities of a character, its physical being. Thus if the whole physical being is destroyed, it could be recreated through its metaphysical being.
However, the body, the soul, and any other metaphysical existence would only be a part of the being existence, not the whole being. So, my description would be something like:
Low-Godly: Being able to regenerate physical existence through metaphysical existence (As to regenerate the soul through the body);
Mid-Godly: Being able to regenerate the physical and metaphysical existence of a being through a higher metaphysical existence;
High-Godly: Being able to completely regenerate from nothing after the whole being destroyed through all levels of existence of that being.
In this way we will have a being with a layered existence. "Low-Godly" is regenerating one layer through an upper layer, "Mid-Godly" is regenerating through an undetermined number of layers as long as some level of existence of that being still exists, while "High-Godly" is regenerating after all of that being has been destroyed, so it would have to come out of nothing.
There are some complications to this idea, but I think as long as we can keep something generic and efficient, it's a good idea.
Regenerationn can be defined in a basic way as the process in which a being recreates destroyed parts of its own being through the remaining parts. If we are working with regenerating through souls and other things, we are assuming that the being is composed of a varied number of levels/layers of its own existence. It may just be the body, the body plus soul, the body plus soul and something else, something like that was undefined depending on the franchise in question.
Here we work primarily with the physical abilities of a character, its physical being. Thus if the whole physical being is destroyed, it could be recreated through its metaphysical being.
However, the body, the soul, and any other metaphysical existence would only be a part of the being existence, not the whole being. So, my description would be something like:
Low-Godly: Being able to regenerate physical existence through metaphysical existence (As to regenerate the soul through the body);
Mid-Godly: Being able to regenerate the physical and metaphysical existence of a being through a higher metaphysical existence;
High-Godly: Being able to completely regenerate from nothing after the whole being destroyed through all levels of existence of that being.
In this way we will have a being with a layered existence. "Low-Godly" is regenerating one layer through an upper layer, "Mid-Godly" is regenerating through an undetermined number of layers as long as some level of existence of that being still exists, while "High-Godly" is regenerating after all of that being has been destroyed, so it would have to come out of nothing.
There are some complications to this idea, but I think as long as we can keep something generic and efficient, it's a good idea.
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Executer seems spot on here.
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@Sera
Being erased from history is just retroactive EE
Being erased from reality is just plain old existance eraure
Being erased from the plot depends on how the verse threats "plot"
Concepts are inherently superior to mind and soul because by definion it's the blueprint of someone, with soul and mind are a byproduct of it alonside the physical body.
Being erased from history is just retroactive EE
Being erased from reality is just plain old existance eraure
Being erased from the plot depends on how the verse threats "plot"
Concepts are inherently superior to mind and soul because by definion it's the blueprint of someone, with soul and mind are a byproduct of it alonside the physical body.
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No concepts aren't automatically superior to souls or the mind. There is no set definition of "concept" that's broad across most of fiction or even real life for that matter (similar to reality). For example, in Kingdom Hearts, Sora was left "conceptually in pieces", yet his soul was still in tact. There are also verses where concepts are given form and meaning in the mind. This is why you cannot have form applicable standards that are to be applied to multiple verses, based on the interpretation of a select few. Unfortunately we've forgotten this in time because people only care about what sounds more impressive rather than actually being more impressive across the board once other things are taken into account.
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Great.Sera EX said:
Then can we stop going back to "If Mid includes EE then High shouldn't exist?" Yes, if Mid includes the above, High won't exist. And I don't think anyone should be arguing that Mid includes the above. That's just not what Mid-Godly is.
@Overlord Until you find me the page in the "Fundamental Rulebook All Authors Use" that defines concepts as superior to souls always, no matter what, then I can't buy the smallest piece of your argument. Having your "blueprints" erased is literally something accomplished by erasing one's history, or reality, or plot.
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See, but if Sora's heart was his "concept", then what of his soul?
His heart is his self, his individuality, but not the most primary aspect of his being. He has a soul, and he cannot die unless his heart and body both perish and his soul is released.
Kingdom Hearts is an example of concepts not being primary, and there's plenty more examples of this.
His heart is his self, his individuality, but not the most primary aspect of his being. He has a soul, and he cannot die unless his heart and body both perish and his soul is released.
Kingdom Hearts is an example of concepts not being primary, and there's plenty more examples of this.
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i have no clue how hearts and soul are related in the verse, i only know that we threat Hearts as conceptual stuff
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To be honest, sometimes it seems that people overreact what concepts would be. Based on what many may be based on, which are platonic forms and similar ideas, concepts are just the "essences" of universal characteristics, which are not individual and are shared among "individual" beings.
The key word in this is "essence," even in Platonic cosmology concepts are essences, just as souls would be. An "essence" that exists beyond the material world, just that.
The difference is that concepts are universal essences, of the world itself, while souls are individual essences that are what being "is", and without it there is no way to say that being "is" because all that being "is" does not exist. The only difference is the range in which these essences represent.
The key word in this is "essence," even in Platonic cosmology concepts are essences, just as souls would be. An "essence" that exists beyond the material world, just that.
The difference is that concepts are universal essences, of the world itself, while souls are individual essences that are what being "is", and without it there is no way to say that being "is" because all that being "is" does not exist. The only difference is the range in which these essences represent.
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