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Hellsing: High 7-C Issues And Other Stuff

Due to the proliferation of the automobile, I don't imagine there were many equines lining London's streets to be slaughtered.

While Alucard did summon cavalry formation in Level 0, all his previous familiars were burned by Nail Anderson, including his armies and their horses. If I missed a scene where Iscariot ships in a large quantity of horses, let me know.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
If we apply the volume calculated by CloverDragon (stated number of lives absorbed + average blood of IRL humans) on a cylinder, I don't think we'll be able to get a significant radius. Depth of 50 cm gives a radius of 105.56 m, and a depth of 1 m gives a radius of 74.64 m. Let's not get into building-level heights.
Click to expand...
This depth thing is pretty inconsistent too. In the same panel where the cat with the complicated name sinks in blood, we can see that the blood does not even cover the front door of houses.
 
So if there is agreement on not using the old blood calc result, we just have the mist creation for Tier 7.

My position is that the mist creation is Environmental Destruction and doesn't imply scaling to regular Attack Potency.

It has been argued that Alucard scales to the mist and blood flood through a universal power system.
My rebuttal in previous comments is that the justification behind the UPS is weak, and that it fails to add consistency compared to Tier 8 physically + Tier 7 Environmental Destruction.

ShadowWhoWalks said:
Overall, the upgrade was based on UPS, though it appears much more consistent scaling wise to simply consider the Tier 7 feats Environmental Destruction. Also the UPS claim is that vampires become vastly stronger than they were before by drinking more blood, but didn't Seras become comparable to the Captain after drinking the blood of like one person? The scaling appears more dependent on what type a vampire is (artificial vampire, unawakened true vampire, awakened true vampire) than the quantity of blood they drank.
Click to expand...

ShadowWhoWalks said:
Why isn't the off-screen Weather Manipulation not Environmental Destruction? Yes Alucard has other abilities like shadow manipulation and TK which he sometimes uses to attack, and? The fog is nothing but nebulous magic that doesn't scale to attack for all we know, and there is no statement crediting its creation to shadow manipulation or telekinesis.
Click to expand...
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
So if there is agreement on not using the old blood calc result, we just have the mist creation for Tier 7.
Click to expand...
Clover's recalculation would need to be posted on a blog and then see if it is accepted.

CloverDragon03 said:
It was suggested that it'd be far more accurate for me to use the stated number of individuals that blood was taken from.

The average person has about 1.2 to 1.5 gallons of blood in their body. I'll use 1.35 as an average.

1.35 gallons = 0.005110306 meters^3

Number of People = 3424867

Total Blood Volume = 0.005110306 * 3424867 = 17502.1184 meters^3

Density of Blood = 1060 kg/meters^3

Mass = 17502.1184 * 1060 = 18552245.5 kg

I'll use the average human height for the height of the blood (1.7 meters)

GPE = 9.81 * 18552245.5 * (1.7 / 2) = 154697899 Joules or 0.04 tons; Small Building level (9-A)
Click to expand...
Besides, I didn't ask you directly. But does anything relevant change in the calculation considering the blood going to Alucard and not Alucard releasing AOE blood?
 
Idk if it matters at this point, but I fully agree with nuking high 7-C physicals. There's like, 0 evidence that blood is a UES lol, it improves physicals but it's never shown to linearly increase TK potency as well, or equalize physical strength with TK strength.
 
If there is agreement that the calculation is too unreliable to use, publishing Clover's calculation is a formality since it doesn't offer any upgrade.
If someone can get good results using a calculation with valid assumptions for the blood we can use that, however that doesn't seem feasible, especially since we have a statement on how many people's blood was used.

Gin was kinda the main supporter for Hellsing UPS and he is taking a hiatus. Does anyone want to argue in support of UPS?
 
I think you'd need more staff support. I could summon a few for you.
 
Moritzva said:
Wait, when the hell did Alucard get accepted as tier 7. Absolutely not, toss that shit off the profile.
Click to expand...
Quite a while ago.

I think it was made first to accept Hellsing's universal energy system, and then things like manipulating blood (a recalculation gave it a 9-A not level 7) and telekinesis were accepted to scale to the physical through that system.

With a recalculation by Clover above (which still doesn't have a blog), using the average amount of blood from the amount of people that alucard canonically absorbed (some 3 million or so) instead of the visual (inconsistent) blood on the panels, it gave 9-A. But that was being discussed, so I don't think it's been accepted yet.

If this recalculation was accepted, there would only be one calculation for level 7 in hellsing, which would be the fog thing.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Quite a while ago.

I think it was made first to accept Hellsing's universal energy system, and then things like manipulating blood (a recalculation gave it a 9-A not level 7) and telekinesis were accepted to scale to the physical through that system.
Click to expand...
What's the basis for Hellsing having a universal energy system?
 
Armorchompy said:
summary?
Click to expand...
A while back UPS was applied to the verse in this CRT alongside Low-Godly Regeneration with souls, though the discussion in the thread was about the souls part.

A follow-up CRT upgraded Alucard based on UPS to Tier 7 based on the blood calc and the fog calc (it is argued that the handful of telekinetic attacks in the series should scale to the energy required for the blood and fog calcs). Though I think the opposition was made weaker by not compromising on Tier 8 and spending much effort arguing against the Tier 8 Blackwing crash calc based on Tier 9 being more consistent.

This thread happens.

It turns out that the blood calc is not usable. The problems are:
  1. It assumes that Alucard is generating the blood from his body and explosively sending it away omnidirectionally to flood the city, when he is in fact drawing it in from across the city and gathering it in one spot.
  2. It also assumes one story high as the average height for the blood across one third of London, even though there are many shots where the depth of the blood is less than a meter.
  3. There is an explicit statement of how many people's blood were absorbed, and if we use the given figure to get the overall volume of the blood, it wouldn't be enough to make a calc that is above Tier 9.

It was also brought up that the justification for UPS is weak. It is claimed that vampires "become vastly stronger" by drinking more blood, which explains why Alucard is top-tier. But Seras become top-tier after drinking the blood of a single person.
So the power levels are more about what type of vampire you are (artificial vampire, unawakened true vampire, awakened true vampire) than the quantity of blood drank.

Supporters in the thread are arguing to:
  1. Downgrade the verse to Tier 8 physically.
  2. Get rid of the UPS.
  3. Get rid of the blood calc.
  4. Consider the fog feat to be Environmental Destruction.

LordGinSama was responsible for the upgrades and arguing as an opponent, but he is no longer active. He conceded on getting rid of the blood calc, but not the rest of the proposals.
 
Last edited:
Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara said:
...Seriously? It just claims that vampires get stronger by drinking blood (which is true), but that doesn't mean a vampire's physical strength scales to their supernatural abilities like telekinesis or weather manipulation. That's just absurd.
Click to expand...
ShadowWhoWalks said:
A while back UPS was applied to the verse in this CRT alongside Low-Godly Regeneration with souls, though the discussion in the thread was about the souls part.

A follow-up CRT upgraded Alucard based on UPS to Tier 7 based on the blood calc and the fog calc (it is argued that the handful of telekinetic attacks in the series should scale to the energy required for the blood and fog calcs). Though I think the opposition was made weaker by not compromising on Tier 8 and spending much effort arguing against the Tier 8 Blackwing crash calc based on Tier 9 being more consistent.

This thread happens.

It turns out that the blood calc is not usable. The problems are:
  1. It assumes that Alucard is generating the blood from his body and explosively sending it away omnidirectionally to flood the city, when he is in fact drawing it in from across the city and gathering it in one spot.
  2. It also assumes one story high as the average height for the blood across one third of London, even though there are many shots where the depth of the blood is less than a meter.
  3. There is an explicit statement of how many people's blood were absorbed, and if we use the given figure to get the overall volume of the blood, it wouldn't be enough to make a calc that is above Tier 9.

It was also brought up that the justification for UPS is weak. It is claimed that vampires "become vastly stronger" by drinking more blood, which explains why Alucard is top-tier. But Seras become top-tier after drinking the blood of a single person.
So the power levels are more about what type of vampire you are (artificial vampire, unawakened true vampire, awakened true vampire) than the quantity of blood drank.

Supporters in the thread are arguing to:
  1. Downgrade the verse to Tier 8 physically.
  2. Get rid of the UPS.
  3. Get rid of the blood calc.
  4. Consider the fog feat to be Environmental Destruction.

LordGinSama was responsible for the upgrades and arguing as an opponent, but he is no longer active. He conceded on getting rid of the blood calc, but not the rest of the proposals.
Click to expand...
Shadow explained further.

But I also agree with that, I can't see the relationship.

Mainly when the work itself shows this, and when it is not consistent.

We only have 2 calculations of level 7. One can be recalculated as level 9 (The blood in London) and another is fog creation which simply has no connection with this blood thing and is not even an attack skill.

We don't even know if Alucard uses telekinesis for this or if he just appears.
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
A follow-up CRT upgraded Alucard based on UPS to Tier 7 based on the blood calc and the fog calc (it is argued that the handful of telekinetic attacks in the series should scale to the energy required for the blood and fog calcs). Though I think the opposition was made weaker by not compromising on Tier 8 and spending much effort arguing against the Tier 8 Blackwing crash calc based on Tier 9 being more consistent.
Click to expand...
Well that's a plane crashing against a vehicle, why is the assumption that the explosion comes from KE rather than just the fuel of one of the two igniting? I'd like to see the full scan but with the flames and everything I'd definitely assume fuel explosion.
ShadowWhoWalks said:
It was also brought up that the justification for UPS is weak. It is claimed that vampires "become vastly stronger" by drinking more blood, which explains why Alucard is top-tier. But Seras become top-tier after drinking the blood of a single person.
So the power levels are more about what type of vampire you are (artificial vampire, unawakened true vampire, awakened true vampire) than the quantity of blood drank.
Click to expand...
If that's the primary basis I also wouldn't just necessarily assume that the physical upgrade is 1 to 1 with the telekinetic powers. Even if you assume that both get upgraded by the same amount of times, which I wouldn't, it's possible that the powers were always stronger, so it goes from (completely arbitrary example) "9-B, 8-C" with TK to "9-A, 8-A with TK"
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
You should probs give a proper reasoning for those that are ignorant on Hellsing stuff
Click to expand...
The only reasoning I need is that they literally never exhibit a single feat even remotely close to higher tier 8, much less tier 7, physically.

This is from... what, a cloud feat? That shouldn't scale to his normal physicals at all. A cloud feat in Level 0, no less. Yeah, remove this. Easily.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
It wasn't at level 0, it was normal restrictions, just correct.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, comment stands otherwise. Was writing quickly on mobile so apologies for any confusion there.

I'd read my paper copy of Hellsing for clarification but I don't have it on me atm. Very sad.
 
Armorchompy said:
Well that's a plane crashing against a vehicle, why is the assumption that the explosion comes from KE rather than just the fuel of one of the two igniting? I'd like to see the full scan but with the flames and everything I'd definitely assume fuel explosion.
Click to expand...
The Blackwing Blackbird (I assumed a cooler name was given to the plane :/) calc is actually an explosion calc.

Though if we use a KE method we would get a similar result, since the speed of the plane's approach is stated to be Mach 2.8.
0005-056.png


0005-075.png
0005-081.png
0005-076.png
0005-077.png


Anime version



The reason the explosion would scale to Alucard's durability is that his coffin within the plane was undamaged:
0008-023.png

Either Alucard protected it with his shadows, or the coffins is durable. And if it is the latter, then Alucard would most likely scale above it since the coffin is actually some sort of sentient creature/monster:
0006-007.png
0006-008.png
0006-009.png


Also, he engulfed the plane with his shadows to prevent it from exploding and being torn apart from Rip Van Winkle's bullet before the crash, and his shadows are used for attacks after releasing Level 1.



Though I did notice a problem in the calculation. It cites the width of 75 m for an aircraft carrier from an article, however the type of aircraft carrier is specifically mentioned:
0004-152.png


The width of an invincible-class aircraft carrier is 36 m, so the radius of the explosion would be halved. This is also more consistent with what is shown since the span of a Blackbird is 17 meters and it wasn't dwarfed by the ship's width.

So a downgrade from Tier 8 might be happening, though not sure if it should be discussed in this thread or a follow-up.
I am aware of two potential replacement calculations.

(1)
There is the anime version calc since it shows that the explosion engulfed the length of the ship (and there is a good argument for that from the manga since the entire ship was damaged and falling apart):

vsbattles.fandom.com

Alucard Crash's a Plane

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

0006-088.png


(2)
I argued that the panel showing Walter destroying buildings implies he ripped them apart with fragmentation-type destruction, though DMUA disagreed:
0009-046.png


vsbattles.fandom.com

Hellsing: Walter Flexing his Wires on Buildings

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

Armorchompy said:
If that's the primary basis I also wouldn't just necessarily assume that the physical upgrade is 1 to 1 with the telekinetic powers. Even if you assume that both get upgraded by the same amount of times, which I wouldn't, it's possible that the powers were always stronger, so it goes from (completely arbitrary example) "9-B, 8-C" with TK to "9-A, 8-A with TK"
Click to expand...
It was argued that TK would scale to physicals since Alucard stopped Van Winkle's bullet with his teeth, and Tubalcain Alhambra can use both melee and ranged attacks with his cards.

Though there doesn't seem to be any sort of correlation between the fog feat and physicals.
 
Therein lies a bit of an issue in that RIP and Tubalcain dont have feats in the tier 8 or 7 range to justify Al scaling physically

Plus Al catching Rip's bullet is kind of a weird feat in that doing so visibly blew half of his face off
 
ShadowWhoWalks said:
The reason the explosion would scale to Alucard's durability is that his coffin within the plane was undamaged:

Either Alucard protected it with his shadows, or the coffins is durable. And if it is the latter, then Alucard would most likely scale above it since the coffin is actually some sort of sentient creature/monster:
Click to expand...
Ah, ok. Might not be point-blank but fair enough otherwise
 
Bump.
I think we can conclude the proposals in the OP since nobody is offering a counter.

We can either sort out the potential downgrade from Tier 8 here or in a follow up thread.
 
i feel like this is close enough to conclusion that that'd be unnecessary
 
Basically there is currently no one disputing a downgrade from Tier 7 or providing counterpoints, and there is support from staff for the downgrade.

The main points are:
  1. The Tier 7 blood flood calculation is not valid, and would yield much lower with the correct context.
  2. The Tier 7 fog creation feat is just Environmental Destruction.
  3. There is no Universal Energy System in the verse, because the justification provided for it is weak.


Turns out that there is also a problem in the Tier 8 calc, though this is properly best left for a follow-up thread..
 
Can I just mention something about the blood feat? Is their any statement that it only used the blood of the souls absorbed since we see the souls themselves have blood and are covered in it during level 0 along with the city being flooded in it, I think it’s pretty obvious alucard is outputting more blood than the souls he absorbed in level 0 otherwise their wouldn’t be rivers of it if the souls themselves had blood
 
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