Hax resistance during versus matchups

[Antvasima]

Continued from here:

https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/1085816

We had a discussion about the circumstances for which superior power should grant automatic resistance to hax abilities from less powerful characters, but the discussion was severely derailed, so this is an attempt to keep it more contained and orderly.

I am personally not familiar with or interested in most versus threads, but I have been told that it is an ongoing problem to properly determine.

NOTE: STAFF ONLY

 

[Dark649]

Since there are two threads about this, the other should be closed.

 

[Antvasima]

I have done so.

For the record, I agree with Ryukama's last comment.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

Ryukama makes sense with his last comment.

 

[PaChi2]

I was gonna copy Ryu's last comment.

Guess its not neccessary. I agree with it, btw.

 

[Antvasima]

Here is what Ryukama wrote:

Anyways I agree with a lot of people here. We can't assume that someone will always negate a durability negating hax from anyone weaker than them as that would be a blatant NLF.

However we also can't say that a durability negating hax will just work on anyone who hasn't directly resisted that specific power (which I see used far more often on this site) as that also reaches NLF. I mean it's starting to get to a point where I wouldn't be surprised if some people have a Tier 9 with petrification curbstomp a 2-B because he's never directly shown to resist it.

It's about finding a balance and determining characters on their own in a case by case basis. Rather than trying to create one set standard as a whole that applies to everyone ever.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Same as well. Ryu's comment is best.

 

[Dark649]

Basically what we have decided that if a character gets a resistance when is shown to met the standard of resisting a particular ability [Absolute Zero for example], said resistance can scale the other characters in-verse only if it is stated and proved to do so. If all the members of special race were stated to resist a particular ability and further confirmed with one of them showing it.

 

[Antvasima]

So, does anybody think that we should make some form of addition to the Versus Thread Rules page, and if so, what should it say?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I 100% agree with Ryukama.

 

[Golden_Void]

@649

Basically what I said with Vegeta. It makes no sense that someone as strong as him wouldn't get the same resistances he has, when all he did was power up. Which is further evidenced when base Goku developed a resistance to energy of destruction, even though Golden Frieza did it more easily.

But I also agree with Ryu and I can help later @Ant

 

[Dark649]

No unite. We don't accept assuming, the others need to prove that the others can do it too. The Saiyan Race was not stated to resist ice and the other showing of it was Gt Goku not resisting to Ice.

 

[AKM sama]

I am sorry to interrupt but I'll just bring up a couple of points for which I got Ryu's permission.

- We would never know what would work and what wouldn't until a crossover is done lol. It's pure guesswork when it comes to hax abilities.And yes, if we side with either of the notion, it wouldn't be fair to the other side as it would go on to become NLF.

I personally think that when a certain high tier character, say 3-B has never been exposed to a certain hax, and we don't know if he is resistant, immune, weak or vulnerable to said hax, then the low tier character, say 9-C should have at least 1 example of affecting another 3-B character in his verse of that calibre in order to say that his/her hax would work. Otherwise not.

However that's just my suggesstion on this topic. A possible solution.

.............

I also agree with UMR, the resistances can be scaleable too. I mean Vegeta easily resisted Absolute Zero and nobody thinks that attack would work on Goku or Beerus..

- Resistances should be scaled from a lower character to a higher character if the power source for both is same or if both are of the same race. Like both Goku and Vegeta are saiyans and both use the same power source which is God ki or normal ki, right?

And we know Goku >= Vegeta, let's just assume Vegeta can resist transmutation or Absolute Zero as SSB or ssj1, then Goku should be able to too.

But, this should also be done on a case by case scenario for different hax. Like there could be a hax which works differently for a pure hearted being and a normal being. Now there is a clear difference between their traits in question so this shouldn't be scaleable.

I know this particular case is from DB standpoint. But that's where this debate originated from. Also same could be applied to other verses which work similarly though..

 

[Golden_Void]

No unite. We don't accept assuming, they others need to prove that the others can do it too. The Saiyan Race was not stated to resist ice and the other showing of it was Gt Goku not resisting to Ice.

So someone similar to Vegeta needs to prove they can power up which busts ice???

 

[Dark649]

I changed by comment and i think it's better to stop using Dragon Ball for an example.

 

[Dark649]

So someone similar to Vegeta needs to prove they can power which busts ice???

Mostly everyone can easily destroy ice in the verse, it's about resisting to it.

 

[Golden_Void]

It was supposed to freeze to the bone, which didn't happen. I'm pretty sure he got hit by blocking it, when anyone comparable to Vegeta can replicate.

Same concept with time skip and energy of destruction.

 

[Ryukama]

I think resistances Dragon Ball characters have shown for the reasoning of "his ki is powerful" can be scaled to people with more powerful ki. Are we going to say Hyssop's ice attacks will work on Grand Priest but not SSJ Vegeta?

Of course that isn't to say that greater power = hax resistance in all verses or if someone from another verse's hax is of a much higher caliber than what DB characters have shown to resist we'll assume they will just cause they're stronger.

 

[Dark649]

I heavily disagree with giving to stronger GT and all the 3-A characters resistance to Poison and Transmutation because they are stronger than Buu and Z Vegito.

 

[Golden_Void]

That would only be the case if they are shown to generate ki shields. Which reminds me, Vegito needs to have resistance to poison on his profile via ki barriers.

 

[Dark649]

Super Vegeta, Goku some other 3-A characters can make a forcefield, but we can't assume that resist to transmutation because they are stronger than Z Vegito. The forcefield resistance to poison was made to counter Lavender, they did not had this previously.

 

[Golden_Void]

1. They would have resistance being much stronger than current Buu + ki barriers

2. Regardless if they were to fuse again, Vegito would have the ability. Vegito showed feats of ki barriers in DBZ anywhere, where he could be inside of Buu without getting absorbed

 

[Dark649]

No, that's not how it works Buu resists to poison because of his nature as a Majin and not because of ki.

 

[Ryukama]

I'm sorry, but does anyone really think if Grand Priest were to fight Dabura or Good Buu he'd get defeated?

Is it somewhat of an assumption to say Grand Priest will resist these haxes? Sure. But we're allowed to make reasonable assumptions that have some evidence supporting them at times. Especially when the alternative assumption puts Buu Saga fodder above DBS's highest gods.

The explanation is simple. Vegito can resist Buu's transmutation because his ki is powerful. Grand Priest's ki is much more powerful than Vegito's. So Grand Priest can resist Buu's transmutation as well.

Now let's say you've got a character from another verse who is physically weaker than Grand Priest but has some insane cosmic hax that's vastly greater than what Buu's transmutation has ever shown. We won't assume Grand Priest can resist this hax just cause he's stronger. However we can at least assume Grand Priest can resist Buu's hax cause he's stronger.

 

[AKM sama]

I don't think there has been a single instance in DB/DBZ/DBS where a character with lower ki has resisted a hax from someone, and a character with higher ki has failed to do so against the same hax and same user.

If that's true, it would make "more ki = more strength, more durability, more speed, more resistance to hax"

Ofcourse not taking into account those hax which differentiate between characters' personalities, race, biology and emotions like being pure, evil, djinn etc. Just general hax which works universally same for all.

 

[Golden_Void]

No, that's not how it works Buu resists to poison because of his nature as a Majin and not because of ki.

1. He resisted poison? At any rate, it's more likely due to his regen, I don't think the name "Majin" means anything

2. That's not discussing Vegito though.

 

[Dark649]

1. He resisted poison? At any rate, it's more likely due to his regen, I don't think the name "Majin" means anything.

It's an unique resistance of his species, it's speculation to say that all Regenerationn users of the series have resistance to poison.

 

[Golden_Void]

When was this?

And poison affects either entire organs/large parts or cells, which his Regenerationn covers.

 

[Dark649]

Basically you guess that all Regenerationn users in fiction are resistant to poison, it sounds the same as all the machines are resistant to Soul Manipulation, which the stronger DB characters scales by latter logic.

I don't like the whole give all unique resistancies from characters to the stronger ones simply because they are stronger seems dumb to me because of the idea of this logic being applied to all verses, also stronger characters can blitz and stop them.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I don't believe that being stronger automatically grants you resistance to hax, i think that's absurd, just because you're universal, doesn't give you mean you have a strong soul or something that prevents you from having your soul destroyed, being strong has nothing to do with resisting your mind being shut down, or being atomized.

However i think it gets complicated when we are talking about higher dimension beings, an higher dimension being is infinitely above that of a lower dimension being, so i question whether a lower dimension being hax can work on a higher dimension being, i think in this case if it's an higher dimensional being, unless the lower dimensional has shown the ability to affect higher dimensional entities, then we can't assume their hax can hurt the higher dimensional being.

As for the whole dragon ball hax resistance, i agree with Ryukama that it's a bit absurd to think vegito has resistance which someone like the grand priest doesn't, higher ki=more resistance, in db logic, doesn't mean that simply powering up is gonna suddenly give db characters resistance to every hax, but ppl who are stronger should logically have the resistances displayed by weaker characters in the series, unless it was someone with a resistance produced by a characters race or something like that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We all know that Boss Rabbit could beat Grand Priest if he got a free touch.

 

[Golden_Void]

I'm not saying Regenerationn grants resistance, because it doesn't. It simply reverses the damage done. And it is not similar to your robot reference. We aren't talking about every verse, we're talking about DB here, where it's shown.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I always treated it so that durability negating hax worked against anything below tier 2 without further showings and against things at or above tier 2 only if it was shown to be useful at that level.

Reason is that at that point durability is not just increased physical thoughness, but has to work on completly different mechanics to tank something like the destruction of a timeline.


Aside from that durability negation should work against everything, that has not shown resistance or is incompatible, regardless of power. That a hax is a hax is in the end extrapolated from its mechanism and that simply getting more powerful on a physical basis doesn't affect the working of that mechanism is the whole reason those things are considered hax.


In regards to scaling resistances in the way "A can certainly beat B, therefore A must resist B's hax": I would be very careful with that. For example Yorihime would canonically defeat all residents of gensokyo easily. Given that you would think she has some ridiculous hax resistance, but in practice she did for example not resist Sakuyas timestop, but beat her anyway.

In the end it is often blitzing or oneshotting that is responsible for certainly winning in case of such instances or the author believes in a win through fighting style or intelligence.

There are rare cases were scaling resistances works, but that usually has less to do with power than being part of a certain category of beings that are known to have it.

 

[Kaltias]

I agree 100% with DontTalk

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I also agree with Don'tTalk.

 

[Dark649]

Me too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't agree 100%. When you extrapolate that a Hax will allow you to beat a stronger opponent regardless of gap it starts becoming a Proof by Example fallacy.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I don't really see how being physically powerful stops you from being mind controlled, if we are dealing with 3-D characters, hax works regardless of durability, unless you have shown resistance imo, if the character as Don'tTalk puts it can survive the destruction of timelines, you're not dealing with just pure physically durability anymore, at this point hax from lower characters shouldn't work unless they have proven they can affect characters that have durability on that sort of level.

You can survive a planet being blown up, cool, have you ever survived your soul being destroyed? No, then the character who might be wall level's hax will work on you, soul hax isn't a matter of physical durability, but spiritual durability, if you haven't shown resistance to that, it should work on you regardless of how physically powerful you are, same thing with mind manipulation, you can survive a galaxy being blown up, cool, have you ever survived your mind being shut down? No, then mind manipulation works on you, as it isn't a matter of physical durability, but mental durability.

 

[Ryukama]

In regards to scaling resistances in the way "A can certainly beat B, therefore A must resist B's hax": I would be very careful with that. For example Yorihime would canonically defeat all residents of gensokyo easily. Given that you would think she has some ridiculous hax resistance, but in practice she did for example not resist Sakuyas timestop, but beat her anyway.

Except, at least in Dragon Ball's case, the resistance to a certain hax is explicitly referred to as having sufficiently powerful ki. This guy has powerful ki so he resisted that hax. Therefore we can logically say that someone with vastly more powerful ki than the person who resisted it can also resist it.

In this case, it's simply just Yorihime being able to beat Sakuya in a fight and it being proven she can't resist Sakuya's timestop. If it was someone with powerful magic resisted Sakuya's timestop, and Yorihime has far, far more powerful magic than that someone, then it'd be more comparable to the case I'm talking about.

Of course, in cases similar to the latter or when the situations are different it shouldn't be assumed someone can resist the hax of lower fighters in their verse.

 

[DontTalkDT]

I don't agree 100%. When you extrapolate that a Hax will allow you to beat a stronger opponent regardless of gap it starts becoming a Proof by Example fallacy.

The proof by example fallacy states that because for an x in some set Y some statement is true that doesn't mean that the statement is true for some other y in Y as well.

That doesn't apply here, because there first quite simply isn't an example x and above that because the truth value of the statement "negates durability against the durability value y" is in its truth value independent of the the choice of y per definition of being durability negating.

Or simpler said, some hax, like space cutting, is only hax exactly because the durability has no influence on wether or not it does damage. If that weren't the case it wouldn't be durability negating in the first place.

As Celestial Pegasus said for for example things like Mind or Soul attacks it's easy to show that the physical durability of matter is independent on the damage done, meaning the property of negating durability is directly proven for all things in the set of things that have only physical durability in normal sense (in other words it is directly shown for Y not just some x in Y).

So no it is by no means a proof by example fallacy.

@Ryukama: I didn't particularly refer to anything Dragonball, because the discussion wasn't directly related and I really don't care about the franchise.

That said if it is stated that reaching a certain powerlevel gives resistance to certain hax resistance that is a completly different story, because it would then be indirectly stated that the characters have that hax resistance. They would get it because of the statement, not because some character weaker than them resisted a hax. Likewise on could only say that for the hax that it is stated for, not any other hax.