Jujutsu Kaisen Hax Removals (Staff Only)

[SunDaGamer]

I have not seen any indication that Gege hired them or that it was approved by Gege himself in the sense of establishing JJK canon. Tnotions -- to the extent that I've seen -- are just being extrapolated by the fact that the article was published at all. Inviting professionals for a fun article doesn't necessitate that the author or publisher sees their input as canonical, and if they are meant to provide scientific theories about how fictional abilities work, then I find it especially far fetched to use the interview to establish concept manipulation, which is entirely non-scientific.


I believe with Plancks vote, the thread is 4-1 and can be applied now @SunDaGamer, as the grace period is well over.

I want to post my responses when I can get to my PC again (in the next hour) before the thread is closed

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I want to post my responses when I can get to my PC again (in the next hour) before the thread is closed

It's been over an hour now.

 

[SunDaGamer]

Spoiler

I disagree. The evidence in question is highlighting that matter and spirit in JJK can both be broken down to a substrate level of information which in turns dictates their qualities. Ogami summoned and perfectly recreated Toji's entire physical existence by summoning the rest of his information from the ether. She also directly implies that she could download the soul information but chooses not to do so for obvious reasons. This would indicate once again that there is a repository of information that can be utilized to fashion soul and matter, and these things are backwards compatible because of this (as evidenced by Yaga and Ogami) once again highlighting why info type 2 is more fundamental.

Panda existing as a legit soul made by a human would not be possible if information did not play this role superceeding the physical and spiritual false duality.

The information has to be a fundamental building block of reality, only being the fundamental information of a person specifically doesn't qualify solidly for Type 2 even if it affects how reality interacts with them and vice versa as I had outlined with the example in the op. Whether Information Manipulation's page should be revised with a Type 3 to facilitate cases like this can be dealt with later (this issue of assigning Type 1 Info to something that goes beyond the scope of Type 1 but doesn't qualify for Type 2 was brought up in the GoH thread too and I'm not proposing the info stuff in JJK should be Type 1, this CRT's scope is just to remove Type 2 Info from JJK)

The void aspect was explained here which goes into detail about how Gege is utilizing the ideas of Imaginary numbers (and their ability to allow for solving otherwise non-sensical equations such that i^2 = a negative number, and allowing for the square root of negative numbers). They state that the "hollow" comes from such a state in which something would appear to have a negative length, which is something not possible in physical reality. Purple is exposing the target to this effect and since nothing can exist within those parameters, the person is erased.

Your scans literally show them being unsure over using imaginary numbers and admit they don't know if they can properly investigate it which I had already mentioned in the op

H's inquiry about using imaginary numbers is later brought up by "S" who asks if it's actually the Minkowski metric and "H" being unsure of whether it could be properly investigated, "H" also expresses he is unsure if the direction of imaginary numbers will be the equivalent of mixing Gojo's Blue and Red.

Even taking the power at face value, it doesn't really make sense to be a physical process. It's utilizing math to create an exotic substance that destroys things. Not creating some substance similar to regular energy.

When the series shows an "existence erasing" (never been stated, just inferred) energy attack burning and fragging the things it collides with, it doesn't matter how it "should" work, the same way a Black Hole has ways it should function and we discard it from a character who's whole gimmick is Gravity Manip if their feats in the series don't show their Black Holes functioning like how the Black Hole Feats in Fiction page outlines.

I don't think this is much an argument as Yuki's stuff is blatantly conceptual and doesn't actually affect her body, hence why she doesn't get a speed decrease or a durability increase. So Gojo summoning imaginary numbers ki blast would just align with them both being conceptual in nature and not some physical process.

Yuki's punches are still physical punches so I'm not sure how you came to that last conclusion. I'm not saying Yuki's Star Rage and Hollow Purple are the exact same thing, Yuki's technique has established the relationship between the concept of mass and the object of her ability and we know barriers are an effective measure against Gojo while Yuki can just bypass them with her technique.

Takano is the editor who did the interview with Jump and the consultants. Tadano is the who did the corrections in the volume afterward. At the beginning of the interview, Gege has a small box where he explicitly references his mistakes with Infinity in the volume afterward and the corrections by Tadano, while referencing the engineers coming in as experts even better than him. That combined with this being a Jump approved product released in the magazine means it is 100% useable as secondary canon. I covered this in this post

A few things to note here. While the original author/creator is given precedence, this is not at expense of the copyright holder of a work. This is especially important when discussing Japanese copyright law, where legally speaking, as per Article 15-1 of Japan's copyright law system, when a work is developed by an employee of a corporation, the authorship of the product is to be attributed to the corporation at large, which here would obviously be Jump.

Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Law of Japan | Copyright Research and Information Center CRIC

Given this and the explicit verbiage of own standards clearly highlighting that copyright holders also hold priority given primary canon, any works consented upon by both parties as official works of JJK, should at bare minimum, be considered secondary canon. This is evident by the explicit qualifier of tertiary canon being that
Materials overseen by copyright holds of Jump and Gege, would not be classified by teriary canon or non-canon.

The issue being taken here is that the Jump Giga special isn't the same kind of source as a databook, the Jump Giga lecture was the opinions of other people offering their explanations of abilities using mathematical ideas. Deagon's issue with using it was that we don't have a direct confirmation from Gege or within the source material that confirms those explanations being canonical to the story which is something that's especially important to have when we're given multiple explanations like the strong and weak phases being an alternative explanation, their uncertainty around explaining Purple and when the series itself doesn't include or reference those differing explanations. I'm very much in agreement with @Deagonx regarding the Jump Giga lecture.

Takano is the editor who did the interview with Jump and the consultants. Tadano is the who did the corrections in the volume afterward. At the beginning of the interview, Gege has a small box where he explicitly references his mistakes with Infinity in the volume afterward and the corrections by Tadano, while referencing the engineers coming in as experts even better than him. That combined with this being a Jump approved product released in the magazine means it is 100% useable as secondary canon. I covered this in this post

Who is Tadano? Takano was the engineer Gege talked with in Volume 15 and the one of the three who was involved with the interview, Tatsuhiko Katayama is JJK's editor.

Also Tadano didn't just have a problem with Blue, Tadano explicitly referenced Infinity as the engine being a problem.

Where?

This is a misunderstanding of his point. Gojo's powers work by controlling the scale of distance and coordinates via Infinity. Because Gojo's is affecting the scale fo reality and not the actual constituents of reality itself, his powers have a secondary effect of messing with opponents perceptions, which is something Jogo/Sukuna note during their first encounter with him.

To put it simply imagine two ants on a ruler. One on the 2cm line and one on the 4cm line. In reality if they wish to move apart, they will move along the ruler. So say they move 1cm apart, the first ant will be on the 1cm mark and the second on the 5cm mark. Gojo's power doesn't work like that as he isn't really moving the person with a traditional TK or Gravity like affect. He's directly controlling the scale of things. To go back to our example, Gojo would move the ants by stretching the ruler itself. So for instance, stretching the ruler so that centimers turned into inches. The ants on the ruler are now obviously close apart, but to them, there relative position (2cm apart) never changed, the distance unit itself (the centimers on the ruler) were changed.

That is what is meant in this scan and when discussing the perception aspect of Gojo's abilities. The concept of Distance is essentially malleable to Gojo thanks to Infinity.

The corrections in Volume 15 ended with "choose whichever explanation you like" (between Gege's design and Takano's design), that idea of using scale which Takano's design introduced was then expanded in the Jump Giga lecture which is what you're referring to here.

The Raws of this have already been shown in previous threads. Kenjaku directly references concepts in both lines.

I am aware, the entire point of including those raws here with a another verified translation was to disprove that one.

Regarding Ganesha's ability to "remove obstacles":

• Kenjaku has described Ganesha as "a special grade cursed spirit that involves/entangles a concept with its cursed technique's target" (「術式対象に概念が絡む特級呪霊」, "jutsushiki taishō ni gainen ga karamu tokkyū jurei"?). This could be interpreted as Ganesha applying the concept of "obstacle" to its targets to remove them as such.
• After Ganesha had been destroyed by Yuki, Kenjaku said the following: "The concept of the cursed technique's target...!! This overwhelming mass [couldn't] be contained [by it] intensionally and extensionally!!" (「術式対象の概念……！！　その内包と外延に収まらない程の圧倒的質量！！」, "Jutsushiki taishō no gainen……!!　Sono naihō to gaien ni osamaranai hodo no attōteki shitsuryō!!"?); intension and extension are two ways to logically or semantically describe concepts (intension means formally defining a concept with the qualities or properties that it connotes while extension refers to the totality of things that fall under a concept's definition). Most likely, Kenjaku meant that the "virtual mass" created by Yuki's Star Rage was too immense to be contained by the concept of "obstacle" and thus could not be "removed" by Ganesha. This already vague and abstract explanation is largely lost in the official Viz translation.
  
  ~Raw scans (translations verified by @TheUnshakableOne) Furthermore, I came across a Japanese blog that tries to make sense of this scene and it follows along with the translation above that Kenjaku was referring to Ganesha's technique which involves concepts, not a "target concept" of Yuki's technique that can be applied to how Cursed Techniques function in general.

I'd also like to add onto this that we use official translations over fan translations as is the standard, we only use another translation if the officials are poorly translated in an instance after which a translation helper can verify another translation after looking at the raw scans.

Both establish that CT target concepts to operate, both from Kenjaku's perspective of trying to figure her technique out, and said consequence of her ignoring concepts being detrimental to his ability to utilize high-grade cursed spirits. This being on top of the background evidence pointing towards the conceptual nature of CT:

• CE being generated by sentient beings experiences.
• CE giving form to life.
• Cursed spirits being amalgamations of human memory/emotion [2] and even shared conceptualization [2] by humans.
• and the fact the fundamental reality in JJK isn't physical or spiritual, but information, inherently making reality warping in the verse abstract.

Qualifying concepts in CM aren't just manifestations of ideas and notions, the concepts are bound to an object which causes the object to be altered when the concept is altered, an example of entities qualifying for embodying a concept in a similar vein to what's been proposed for Cursed Spirits would be Chainsaw Man where Devils are directly spawned from a concept feared by people and have their existence fundamentally tied to the concept, allowing them to persist through death and rebirth so long as that concept exists, said concept in turn vanishes from reality along with the objects of that concept if its Devil is permanently killed. Information making up reality would fall under Information Manip, that's its own thing.

No, that isn't how concept manip works as I linked here. The targeting range of the concept has nothing to do with the typing, rather the essence of the concept. To quote DT

Yuki is directly interacting with the concept of mass itself, not directly changing the universe. As discussed by DT, the key differentiator is the essence of the concept. Type 3 manipulation means the concept meaning is specific to the user and not universal in meaning. Yuki is not targeting a subjective concept here, she is interfacing with the literal idea of mass. This is backed up both by Kenjaku describing her ability as being beyond semantics and pragmatics (meaning definition by abstract or practical categorization) and by Yuki's body not being directly altered by the mass, but still being able to cause the effects commensurate to her "imaginary mass".

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality.

For Yuki to have Type 2 CM from manipulating the concept of mass as you say, she should be able to affect the mass of more objects more than just herself as objects with the concept of mass extend way beyond her. The fact that her technique only affects the mass of her and Garuda when its activated and cannot affect the mass of any other object makes it fall under Type 3 because her technique affects "the mass of Yuki and Garuda" not "mass" in general. DT has clarified this distinction of Type 3 CM here:

Reiner04: What does personal concept even mean? I am having this doubt since weeks, is there smth regarding it to read? A website, link, book, etc.

DontTalkDT: In the usual sense, a concept of x is expected to govern all x in the world.
A concept of fire governs all fire in the world at once.
A concept of water governs all water in the world at once.
And a concept of Naruto Uzumaki would govern all Naruto Uzumaki in the world at once, even if there is at the moment only one. If there were more, it would govern all.

In contrast, a personal concept doesn't govern all of something, but just one thing in particular.
If you point a weapon that destroys personal concepts at fire and destroy the fire concept with it, only that one fire will be erased. All other fire in existence is fine.

Ultima disagreed with me at that point in the conversation and we did not get to continue. This was also before the scan of Gojo's infinity outright being confirmed to work via utilizing the concept of Infinity, which has been noted to exist everywhere. Along with the mathematical and conceptual control Gojo has shown, that is more than enough to give him type 2. So I'd appreciate if we didn't cherry pick old mods opinions while also not bringing up the mods who agreed with type 2 when more information was presented, after the thread you are referencing occurred.

Ultima was pretty clear when they pointed out the statement that Infinity exists everywhere immediately followed up by the statement Gojo makes about his technique bringing Infinity into reality contradicts Type 2 CM rather than proving it.

No, manipulation of abstraction at this level is quite literally what Concept type 3 was changed to cover. A self concept is quite literally what encompasses. An abstract territory utilizing personal symbolism and one's own self-concept would indeed by concept type 3. [1] [2]

This just falls under Subjective Reality

Before I give my thoughts, I will first say that I'm failing to see why this is a staff only thread. Seeing as it is not only created by a non-staff member but this thread hasn't been attempted before, adding a barrier of entry for the community to participate in this thread just feels obnoxious and unneeded.

If somebody feels like they can contribute then nobody is stopping them from simply asking for permission to comment, the last JJK hax thread was a staff discussion and multiple non-staff members participitated in it fine.

I don't agree with dropping Gojo's Type 2 with what you provide here because Gojo's Type 2 didn't get accepted because of the stuff with Yuki and the general Type 2 in the first place. Type 2 for infinity got accepted as its own thing separately since the evidence that qualified it wasn't based on the idea of Cursed Techniques being based on target concepts, the functionality of Infinity itself was used to support the idea that Cursed Techinques were based on target concepts. This got accepted, accounting for Ultima's argument in a later thread after the one you posted.

So I would like to see your actual argument against it.

The idea of all Cursed Techniques having "target concepts" based on Yuki was a pretty important supporting piece of evidence for Gojo's Infinity qualifying for CM.

Ultima's argument that the statement about Infinity existing everywhere being used as evidence for Type 2 CM directly contradicts Type 2 CM once Gojo in the very next sentence says his technique brings it into reality was never actually countered. Using the Jump Giga lecture itself as evidence have been addressed by me above.

 

[Dr._whiteee]

I mean, there's no real reason to respond at this point. GG, see you in 3 <3.

 

[Phoenks]

Can't believe I'm late to this. This echoes everything I've been saying for years now.

Possibly the most nonsensical reason for Type 2 Info I've ever seen. It's mentioned one time in one chapter and never brought up again, nor does anyone else even manipulate this "info" aside from like one person. It doesn't even explained why it's "fundamental" as opposed to data-like information.

The conceptual stuff was thoroughly debunked before by Ultima and many other staff members, yet it was reapplied on another thread for some reason (Even though only like 2 staff agreed with it that time).

GG!

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread. What do we do now?

 

[Phoenks]

I haven't been keeping up with this thread. What do we do now?

We apply the changes. The thread has been accepted 4-1. With 2 Admins on the side of agreement against 1 discussion mod.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

We apply the changes. The thread has been accepted 4-1. With 2 Admins on the side of agreement against 1 discussion mod.

@SunDaGamer You can make the edits.

 

[SunDaGamer]

I've applied all the revisions, this thread can be closed now.

 

[Deagonx]

Closing at OP's request