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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

Since I was asked to here is the DMC layers stuff we could make with our busy schedules.

Blog: Here

Proposal: Infinite layers. We can settle with countless too. There is also a lowball somewhere there.

Summary: Demonic power in general does a lot of things, one of them is bypass resistances by adding more demonic power. According to the hax page this obviously qualifies for hax layers and all that.

The infinite layers come from how the heart of the demon world functions and how distance affects the power of the demonic energy it "radiates". Depending on how much closer or farther you are you will feel more or less (or in the case of the normal demon population then it is the "normal" amount of demonic power) of it's overwhelming strength. In the novel some normal demonic soldiers can barely walk towards it while some others like the strongest demons can almost reach the Heart, then you have those on the demon king tiers who can basically waltz around like they were walking in the park on a cold night with good music.
 
Phsccarvalho said:
Hakai is what 3-D/4-D?

Zeno's EE is 5D, this already eliminates the possibilities of layers since the guys are receiving higher dimensional EE.
Click to expand...
Bruh, whatever happens in any timeline has no effect on other timelines. There's no way Zeno's hitting 5-D anything. I would know; I've watched Super until the end.
 
Flashlight237 said:
Bruh, whatever happens in any timeline has no effect on other timelines. There's no way Zeno's hitting 5-D anything. I would know; I've watched Super until the end.
Click to expand...
Zeno's EE is 5-D, which is why he is Low 1-C in profile, exclusively because of his EE.

And the resistances of people who resist Hakai are 3-D/4-D, while Zeno's EE is 5-D.
 
Tony_di_bugalu said:
The infinite layers come from how the heart of the demon world functions and how distance affects the power of the demonic energy it "radiates". Depending on how much closer or farther you are you will feel more or less (or in the case of the normal demon population then it is the "normal" amount of demonic power) of it's overwhelming strength. In the novel some normal demonic soldiers can barely walk towards it while some others like the strongest demons can almost reach the Heart, then you have those on the demon king tiers who can basically waltz around like they were walking in the park on a cold night with good music.
Click to expand...
It's very weird to me how needing to travel an infinite distance to reach the main nexus is like, the entire basis of infinite layers, yet there's no evidence of that actually being the case.
 
@SatellaTheWoE I'm only seeing one layer for reinhard's soul hax stuff, you just posted the same exact scan for resistance to justify 2 layers when it's at best just one. Same with the other stuff, I'm only seeing one layer here.

@ZeedKZ That's not layered hax, explosion manipulation isn't really something you resist when it's AP based in the first place.

@BoastJr Yeah gonna be honest the whole "my army keeps coming back and vice versa for 100 million years" doesn't really tell me anything about evolving to layered hax or anything. So I'm not seeing unquantifiable layers here.

@Flashlight237 yeah Zeno's thing wouldn't count for EE since he's literally on a higher dimensional level with his EE in the first place compared to hakai.

@Tony_di_bugalu Yeah no I already discussed this with you and I'm not seeing infinite layers here. It's a massive stretch, the whole "some groups collapsed while other demons persevered but the stronger demon energy affecting the stronger demon kings I can see for layered hax, but not infinite, so that would be like 7 layers for DMC from what I'm seeing.
 
Mana work as magic resistance, and the amount of Mana in the spell define its potency and overcome or bypass magic resistance of someone who have less magic resistance(mana) than the spell.

Can this be used for layers ?

Ex: Magician with mana amount of 100 can't affect someone with more mana than him, and the bigger the gap the higher is the hax potency and resistance to it.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Tony_di_bugalu Yeah no I already discussed this with you and I'm not seeing infinite layers here. It's a massive stretch, the whole "some groups collapsed while other demons persevered but the stronger demon energy affecting the stronger demon kings I can see for layered hax, but not infinite, so that would be like 7 layers for DMC from what I'm seeing.
Click to expand...
where did ya get 7 from?
 
the bottom scaling chain listed in the blog, if you have some actual scaling chain to work with the whole "more demonic juice means the hax can affect those with resistances" then that's a start.
 
Theglassman12 said:
the bottom scaling chain listed in the blog, if you have some actual scaling chain to work with the whole "more demonic juice means the hax can affect those with resistances" then that's a start.
Click to expand...
That's literally the point of the blog, to prove that more demonic power will bypass your resistances.
Fodder Demons < Demon World Nexus 1 < Nexus 2 < Nexus 3 < Demon World < Low tiers < Mid tiers < God tiers (i forgot to add the top tiers :v)

Thats the bare minimum because there are demons inside those classification that bypassed other's resistances because they have more demonic juice
(except fodders because those guys explicitly can't take shit and had to adapt to the demon world).

Nexuses are obvious, i posted the scans in the blogs and their increasing power the closer Tony gets to them and the demon army in the second novel (yet you disagree)

Low tiers we have several demons including the sins of which they all fear the hell vanguard who controls the flow of souls and all that, the empusa hierarchy, Mundus creations and their own hierarchy, etc.

Yet none come close to the mid tiers which would be the realm kings which are all around equals, the gatekeeper from the tower which all have a clear hierarchical power too, the Mundus generals and even the demon lords who mostly stand at the top
God tiers is the easiest because that's where we have the fewest characters.

Nightmare < Pluto < Nelo < Abigail < Mundus = Argosax < Sparda < Void < Chen < Urizen < Dante = Vergil
The problem here would be with Urizen continuously getting more demonic power thanks to the Qliphoth and then the fruit on top of that
Demonic Power that as you know literally brought him from half dead nelo angelo to the top
In less than a day

Basically it's too much hence why I went with the bare minimum but to expand a bit more on the tiers it would be something like

fodders < Low Tiers (empusas hierarchy < bael/dagon species < sin scissors < sin scrythes < 7 Deadly Sins < Death Scissors < Death Scythes < assaults < frost < Assaults < Blitz) < Mid Tiers (Cerberus < Agni & Rudra < Berial = Echidna < Nevan < Credo < Sanctus < Sparda Sanctus < Failed Savior <Nero < complete savior < Trish < Beowulf < Doppleganger < shadow < Phantom < Griffon < sealed mundus < Vergil < Arkham FE < Dante) < Top Tiers (all the sealed demon lords the Kirk family loldiffed with sparda < Baul < Modeus < Beastheads no host < Nightmare ) < God Tiers
(Pluto < Nelo < Abigail <Odin/Bolverk < Mundus = Argosax < Sparda < Void < Chen < Urizen < Dante = Vergil)
 
Theglassman12 said:
I'm only seeing one layer for reinhard's soul hax stuff, you just posted the same exact scan for resistance to justify 2 layers when it's at best just one. Same with the other stuff, I'm only seeing one layer here.
Click to expand...
Reinhard's Soul Hax Resistance is +1 layer yes. The only Soul Hax that is +2 Layers is Sirius', which can overpower Reinhard's resistance.
 
@SatellaTheWoE @Zabazab that's literally the same scan being used for his first layer resistance though, I'm not seeing anything higher for that.

@Tony_di_bugalu I disagree with the infinite layers stuff, also idk why you just copied the same message you made but ok.

Trim down that list with folks we have actual solid information on there being more demonic energy and I can kinda see the layers, having the low and mid tiers be like that looks like a stretch to add layers unless we have some more solid info like King Cerberus being blatantly above Berial and DMC 3 Cerberus.
 
Omazio2019 said:
vsbattles.fandom.com

Kamen Rider Zi-O Haxes and Resistance Explanation Blog

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com
Click to expand...
Need to re-evaluate for some change of this blog
Time stop:
Existence Erasure: Ohma Zi-O's cable of erasing the timeline along with himself, yet Woz is unaffected => 3 layers of EE for Ohma Zi-O and same layer Resistance for Woz
 
Theglassman12 said:
.
Click to expand...
You forgot this :
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Oh, and one more thing
So.... every magic and skill at base also has Subjective Reality/Reality Warping other than law manip
So can the layers apply to subjective reality as well?

And if you don't have enough time to look through all the bundle of scans on each link, here are the specific scans :

Magic : Brings user's imagination into reality, turning non-physical phenomenon into real life, which works by adding your wish into magicules before casting it
Skills : The physical manifestation of user's desires that turns these desires into reality merely by wishing it
Click to expand...
 
Theglassman12 said:
that's literally the same scan being used for his first layer resistance though, I'm not seeing anything higher for that.
Click to expand...
It's part of his page as justification– him being able to temporarily withstand it's effects before it overwhelms him (most people instantly fall to it)– but the first part of his justification is:
Mind Manipulation, Empathic Manipulation, Soul Manipulation, and Fear Manipulation (No curses, debuffs, or buffs can affect him, thus resists these abilities from Beatrice and Julius.
Click to expand...
Julius' ability:
Soul Manipulation & Mind Manipulation (Al Clarista can attack the soul itself[4]. Damage to the soul, also damages the mind[10], as the mental has been[10] equated to the spiritual[11])
Click to expand...
Beatrice's ability:
Mind Manipulation & Empathic Manipulation (El Shamak can rob a target of their very thoughts[15] and their fighting strength[16] itself)
Click to expand...

Additionally Reinhard has the Divine Blessing of Anti-Magic which makes him immune to Curse Arts. Stride's Cursed Rings have this ability;
Soul Manipulation & Mind Manipulation (His curse rings work on the soul itself[2]. Damage to the soul, also damages the mind[5], as the mental has been[5] equated to the spiritual[6])
Click to expand...
 
Theglassman12 said:
snip
Click to expand...
Allow me to further elaborate. (Please give it a thorough read and notify me if you disagree with any point or if you need citations for anything. It would help me correct it)

Authorities : Authorities are conceptual abilities that all Gods posses which is always superior to magic. These Authorities are all reproductions of a World Creator's Authority. World Creator's powers are unresisted to all Non World Creators as previously said. This should count as layered hax.

Alice's Hekantonkheires : This is an ability which stems from her unique Heart Tool. The "Ultimate Battle Form" state possesses RE which is said to indefinitely grow and has infinite growth and evolution. It was enough to overcome Chronois Authority as previously said. Chronois Authority of Space and Time is on the level of World Creators which counts as adapting to layered hax. Now as also previously said Alice managed to reach the level of World Creators after adapting to a state where she could use Kuromueina's (Who scales to this level) abilities. This should also count as gaining layered hax.

Whats interesting is that her RE does not necessarily cap at that level as the words "indefinite" and "infinite' growth are used.

Makina : Makina's RE scales to Alice as previously said but the methods are different. Alice's RE comes from her heart tool but Makina's RE is an unnamed ability she acquired after becoming a World Creator (She was originally just someone with only clairvoyance). It is likely that other World Creators on her level posesses some form of RE too seeing as how there are instances where they stalemate eachother. Infact its a matter of rock, matter, scissor where minor differences and specialisation determines the outcome (chapter 938).

Makina's main body is immortal as long as her core exists so there is no consequence for her fighting on the frontlines. "No Matter How Many I Destroy on Their Side" further implies that she also directly fought in those million years.

(The further argument is only applicable if they are 7-D for Ex. Makina, Alice)
Whats interesting is that against her Rival she was forced into a stalemate but against a Quasi Omnipotent such as Alice she managed to Bypass her resistance and make her accept Defeat without using any magical energy at all. This further implies that Makina has evolved post her battle in terms of hax potency (Fear Aura is common in this series as stronger characters such Kuromueina has more potent fear aura then Isis remnant)

So in conclusion :
1) Their RE can adapt to layered hax and also gain layers as well.
2) Its also said to have infinite growth and evolution which implies it does not necessarily cap at a certain level.
3) World Creators on Makina's level likely have some form of RE seeing as they stalemate each other
4) Makina herself is implied to have fought them on the frontline.

So I can assert that she fought and evolved alongside her opponent who has similar abilities to her for 100 million years.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Tony_di_bugalu I disagree with the infinite layers stuff, also idk why you just copied the same message you made but ok.

Trim down that list with folks we have actual solid information on there being more demonic energy and I can kinda see the layers, having the low and mid tiers be like that looks like a stretch to add layers unless we have some more solid info like King Cerberus being blatantly above Berial and DMC 3 Cerberus.
Click to expand...
I can get scans for almost everything there tho, I just mixed the hierarchies to make it clearer cuz otherwise they are pretty independent of the other.

I just wanna know if I can post discord images here or I need to use imgur.
 
@Tony_di_bugalu if you're gonna argue the layers to be on the pages, better to use imgur since discord links aren't allowed anymore.

@Omazio2019 The several times I already talked about that not counting for numerous layers there, and your EE scans aren't loading for me.

@Astral_Trinity439 that looks more like subjective reality than just reality warping since it's based on one's inner desires coming to reality. Either way if it functions the same as law hax then sure.

@Zabazab can you highlight the part that shows Reinhard resisting layer 1, and getting haxed by a stronger ability? You're repeating points that isn't really tied to my complaints.

@BoastJr I see the reactive evolution stuff, my problem is the whole "100 millions years of fighting" statement has little to no correlations with their own evolution just outdoing each other ad nauseum for that long, it just highlights how neither side can kill the armies there, which sounds like some form of immortality for that rather than a constant infinitely expansive evolution happening. Unless there's some statements that actually implies the evolution is constantly happening with them haxing one another only to adapt over and over again, I'm not seeing the unquantifiable layers here.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Omazio2019 The several times I already talked about that not counting for numerous layers there, and your EE scans aren't loading for me.
Click to expand...
If the several times doesn't serve as a multiply of layer then I guess it'll be: Keiji (baseline) < Ora, Heure, Daiki (1 layer) < Swartz (2 layers) < Tsukuyomi (3 layers) < Oma Zi-O (4 layers)
Here is for the ee
Oma ee:
Woz:
If the links still don't work: https://docs.google.com/document/d/15eEPLTUyauet_KZr7RlBUTAXoerpO6VhjLeLB48u5XQ/edit
 
Last edited:
Theglassman12 said:
@Zabazab can you highlight the part that shows Reinhard resisting layer 1, and getting haxed by a stronger ability? You're repeating points that isn't really tied to my complaints.
Click to expand...
Julius's Soul Manipulation, and Mind Manipulation (Can attack the soul itself[2]. Damage to the soul, also damages the mind[3], as the mental has been[3] equated to the spiritual[4]), <Reinhard resists<Life sword Zeam (works on Reinhard) (+1 layer)<Reinhard resists with a new blessing (+1 layer resistance)
 
Theglassman12 said:
Post the scan that remotely implies that, especially with this part of your argument.

If you're not gonna post the scan then I'm not gonna humor you any further.
Click to expand...
Here. According to the Author, Life Sword would work on him, but he would gain a new Blessing to counter it. He has no idea how to kill Reinhard.
 
Hax Layers - [TenSura] -
alright, this'll be a long one so please bear with it

Power Nullification

1 Layers : Holy Field [already on their profile ]
1 Layer resistance : Unique Skill users are unaffected by it [already on their profile]
2 Layers : Diablo's Skill which can cancel holy magic like Trinity Break, Unique skills can work on other unique skill holders
Additionally, Ultimate Skills nullify any skill below their level, even unique ones
2 Layer resistance : Ultimate Skills cannot be harmed by those below their level, which is an absolute, unbendable rule
Passive 3 Layers : Yuuki's Anti-Skill is similar in nature to Hinata, passive, it can cancel any attack coming his way, including any Magic, or Physical Attack, can even nullify Ultimate Skills, he has it as an attribute so even his normal attacks posses the attribute called "Anti-skill",
3 Layer resistance : True Dragons like Velgrynd are unaffected by Anti-skill, True Dragon levels like Guy Crimson are unaffected by the likes of Anti-Skill, both Physically, and magically, to the point that even their normal magic is not affected

Information Analysis

Baseline : Analysis Magic which can analyze the target
Baseline Resistance : Unique Skill users have resistance to magic
1 Layer : Hinata's Unique Skill which lets her analyze her opponent's skills, unique skills work on other unique skills
1 Layer resistance : Ultimate skill users resist it

Power Absorption
Baseline Resistance : Skills are inscribed within one's Soul and resist any outside interference interference to seize, separate or erase[nullify] them
1 Layer : Hinata's Unique skill which can steal and mimic skills, Rimuru's Unique skill which can absorb Skills, Yuuki who is able to steal Mariabell's unique skill upon contact

Curse Manipulation
Baseline : Simply Curse magic, Ultima's normal curse magic
Baseline Resistance : Unique Skill users have high resistance to Magic
1 Layer : Lock Curse put by the summoner, which makes the target obey one's command to the utmost and works on Unique skill holders like otherworlders, and Dino's skill, which puts a sleep curse that works on even Unique skill users
1 Layer resistance : Ultimate Skill users cannot be harmed by anything other than an Ultimate skill, True dragons are Ultimate level beings whose very existence is equal to an Ultimate skill, and are unaffected by even the highest form of magic like disintegration, it is an absolute unbendable rule, Ultimate skill users can resist Dino's unique skill
2 Layers : Ultima's Curse magic which could harm a True Dragon like Velgrynd, Dino's skill which had evolved to an Ultimate level, thus should be able to do the same as previous but effect Ultimate level beings, as Ultimate skills can counter other Ultimate skill resistances
 
Last edited:
CodeCCLL said:
Just because a skill is much stronger than a passive skill doesn't mean it works passively. Yuuki's anti-skill, like most skills, is activated based on thought.
Click to expand...
added another scan, I remember coming across a scan[manga panel] where he explained how his anti-skill is passive, but I can't find it rn, will add it as soon as I get it, so changed it to [possibly passive] for now with the addition of new scan and wording
 
Astral_Trinity439 said:
manga panel
Click to expand...

It really seems to work like Hinata's ability so I think the best way to describe it is as a powernull that can be turned on and off thought-based and works passively through contact.
Astral_Trinity439 said:
Ultima's poison, normal curses and summoner curse on skills and magic page are broken, could you please link it to the ones I gave above? [if you have time]
Click to expand...
I really can't help right now, you may need to remove that part for now.
 
@Zabazab thank you, I can see the second layer there.

@Astral_Trinity439 why would they have info analysis resistance when that's not a normal trait of magic in the first place? You're gonna need to prove that they normally resist info analysis in the first place for layers.

Some of your links aren't working for the curse hax, the power null and absorption looks fine.
 
It seems like some posts weren't added to the OP. So that this won't be too long so I'll just bump a few at a time.
The Spirit of Eternal Sword Hax Scaling and Penetration-Page 5

Zelda-Page 6
Dust_Collector said:
Don't deal with many verses with layered hax but uh there's some instances of it in Zelda that I'd like evaluated just to be sure they're legit. Nothing ridiculous like infinite layers (Thank god) but still worth noting.

ALTTP Link had Magic Powder can transmute people into slimes and monsters like Hinox are immune to it, but not to the effects of his Quake Medallions spell which should count as 2 layers. People like Ganon can resist the medallion so his resistance scales to those layers as well. The Triforce also has the same layers, it can turn Poes into Hyu's despite Poes also being immune to the Magic Powder, and ALTTP Link's resistance scales to these layers since he can resist the transmutation effects of the Triforce's magic.

I think Majora also has some layers for transmutation and mind manipulation, since OOT/MM Link can wander the Lost Woods just fine when normally the woods turn anyone who wanders it into stalfos but Majora still turns him into a Deku Scrub regardless. Link also has the Triforce of Courage when Majora transmutes him and that normally protects him from being turned into monsters (Although given what I can tell from our new standards on layers I don't think this means Link's innate resistance and the resistance of the Triforce of Courage count collectively as 2 layers). Majora also heavily screws with Link's mind in that same scene, and he can withstand putting on the FD Mask that forcibly floods his mind with the memories of everyone in Termina (Which is why he screams in pain), and his resistance to the lost woods turning him into a Stalfos also prevents him from becoming mindless since that's what most Stalfos are.

Ganondorf (The first one) has layered power null I think, Hyrule was being ravaged by disasters that were previously unstoppable to normal magic but Ganon used a form of magic never seen before and just nulled all of it in one fell swoop. There's also some potenial for Ganondorf (The current one) to have layered death hax but that's a discussion for another day (Kinks still need to be worked out for that one, life-force in Zelda is weird like that).
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
MysticBrawler said:
It seems like some posts weren't added to the OP. So that this won't be too long so I'll just bump a few at a time.
The Spirit of Eternal Sword Hax Scaling and Penetration-Page 5
Archie Sonic-Page 5
Click to expand...
These image links don't work.
 
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