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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

Flashlight237 said:
Err, Seiya stacked Valkyrie's Gate because the Demon Lord resisted Valkyrie's Gate. Considering the wiki's definition of layered hax is bypassing a resistance through any means, it's still valid layered hax.
Click to expand...
The hax should be superior to the previous one.

It like resisting a curse by single person but having a problem when number of curses increase.
 
These were mostly accepted in separate threads over the past month or so but apparently I need to get them evaluated here as well:

1.
Mori Dan and Mujin Park have passive mind manipulation that makes people completely submit to them. Mujin Park also has mind manipulation where he commands people to do what he wishes, which was shown to work on characters not affected by their passive mind hax.
Mujins word based Mind Manipulation > Odins and Satans resistance > Mujins passive mind manipulation (1 Layer)

2.
Moris passive mind manipulation after he gained karma has been shown to affect Mujin and Tataghata inside of him, who has previously been completely unaffected by it.
Karma Moris passive mind manipulation > Mujin/Tataghatas resistance > Moris base passive mind manipulation (1 Layer)

3.
Since Mujins verbal mind manipulation has been consistently shown as superior to his passive MM, this relationship should stay the same after he gained karma as well. Seeing as how it upgraded Moris mind manipulation by 1 layer, Mujin should have at least a "Possibly 2 Layers" on his verbal mind manipulation with karma.
Mujins karma verbal mind manipulation > Mujins word based Mind Manipulation > Odins and Satans resistance > Mujins passive mind manipulation (2 Layers)

4.
Satan who could resist Diamond Sutras base ability to turn people into soul vapors was affected by 1800 agonies which clearly started to deconstruct him, although it's not enough to completely deconstruct him in one go. Besides being a supposedly stronger form of attack than 1800 agonies, it's heavily implied that if Satan were to not block the Empty Agonies from the bell, he would have gotten erased. Since the superiority of Empty Agonies is more so implied than shown, I think it's safe to only give it a "likely" rating.
Empty Agonies > 1800 Agonies > Satans resistance > Basic Diamond Sutra attacks (at least 1 Layer, likely 2 Layers)

5.
Satan was shown capable of copying recoiless attacks. Dean stated he can't copy recoiless attacks.
Edit: Dean can perfectly copy both martial arts and Borrowed Powers that he's only seen once
Satans Power Mimicry > Recoiless resistance to PM > Deans PM (1 Layer)
 
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DavidTPPM said:
These were mostly accepted in separate threads over the past month or so but apparently I need to get them evaluated here as well:

1.
Mori Dan and Mujin Park have passive mind manipulation that makes people completely submit to them. Mujin Park also has mind manipulation where he commands people to do what he wishes, which was shown to work on characters not affected by their passive mind hax.
Mujins word based Mind Manipulation > Odins and Satans resistance > Mujins passive mind manipulation (1 Layer)

2.
Moris passive mind manipulation after he gained karma has been shown to affect Mujin and Tataghata inside of him, who has previously been completely unaffected by it.
Karma Moris passive mind manipulation > Mujin/Tataghatas resistance > Moris base passive mind manipulation (1 Layer)

3.
Since Mujins verbal mind manipulation has been consistently shown as superior to his passive MM, this relationship should stay the same after he gained karma as well. Seeing as how it upgraded Moris mind manipulation by 1 layer, Mujin should have at least a "Possibly 2 Layers" on his verbal mind manipulation with karma.
Mujins karma verbal mind manipulation > Mujins word based Mind Manipulation > Odins and Satans resistance > Mujins passive mind manipulation (2 Layers)

4.
Satan who could resist Diamond Sutras base ability to turn people into soul vapors was affected by 1800 agonies which clearly started to deconstruct him, although it's not enough to completely deconstruct him in one go. Besides being a supposedly stronger form of attack than 1800 agonies, it's heavily implied that if Satan were to not block the Empty Agonies from the bell, he would have gotten erased. Since the superiority of Empty Agonies is more so implied than shown, I think it's safe to only give it a "likely" rating.
Empty Agonies > 1800 Agonies > Satans resistance > Basic Diamond Sutra attacks (at least 1 Layer, likely 2 Layers)

5.
Satan was shown capable of copying recoiless attacks. Dean stated he can't copy recoiless attacks.
Satans Power Mimicry > Recoiless resistance to PM > Deans PM (1 Layer)
Click to expand...
You should show that dean is extremely capable of copying attacks first
 
This will be an attempt to upgrade the layers of law manipulation for skill holders, as well as magic

Baseline​

First, let's get the definitions, Magic is a way to manipulate the laws of the World according to one's desires, meanwhile Skills are, in their true essence, ways to manipulate the World's laws simply by wishing so
So, now that its clear that both are Law Manipulation in their true essence, lets get down to layers

Magicians have resistance to magic, High-level Magic-born have resistance to it, this would be Baseline resistance to Law Manipulation

1 Layer​

Anti-Magic barrier prevents them from casting Magic -> 1 Layer because this Law Manipulation is effecting beings resistance to Law Manipulation

But this Magic can be resisted by Multi-Layered Barrier -> Resistance to 1 Layer of Law Manipulation for those that have multi-layered barrier, like Benimaru, and anyone who has a profile so far on the wiki

2 Layers​

However, even though Rimuru had Multi-Layered Barrier even when before he met Hinata, the Holy Field had still effected him -> Holy Field is 2 Layers of Law Manipulation

However, Skills, or at least Unique Skills, are unaffected by Holy Field, in fact, Unique Skills like Shions's can even effect the Holy Field itself -> Unique Skill Users gain resistance to 2 Layers of Law Manipulation + possibly, they have 3 Layers of Law Manipulation themselves

3 Layers​

Furthermore, Unique Skill users, that should have been resistance to Holy Field, can still effect other Unique Skill users -> Unique Skills have 3 layers of Law Manipulation

4 Layers​

Shion's skill with her [Chaotic Fate] could work on beings that were previously resisting it -> 4 Layers of Law Manipulation for Shion only

Ultimate Skill Users cannot be harmed by any skill lower than their level, as they are unbound by the Laws of the World, which is an Absolute, Unbendable Rule of the World -> Ultimate Skill users have 4 Layers of resistance to Law Manipulation

5 Layers​

Ultimate Skill Users can still effect other Ultimate Skill Users, and that is the only way to harm an Ultimate Skill User, by countering with your own Ultimate Skill, despite them having resistance to Unique Skills such as that of Shion's -> Ultimate Skill Users have 5 Layers of Law Manipulation


thread
 
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@Jozaysmith? because none of them qualifies, do I need to spoonfeed you every information to you or can you figure it out on your own? I’m not gonna baby you over every decision I make.

@DavidTPPM do you have the scans for the passive mindhax and the soul vapor stuff at baseline, if you do I can see layered hax, though the karma stuff you’re gonna need some proof that with it, it allowed for layered hax.

@Astral_Trinity439 the anti magic thing I’m not seeing for layered hax when that’s power null, not law hax. The whole “affecting other unique skill users” thing doesn’t tell me much for layered hax since you’re just doing power null prior. Law hax would need to be separate from this. So far I see 2 layers for both sides here.
 
Theglassman12 said:
the anti magic thing I’m not seeing for layered hax when that’s power null, not law hax.
Click to expand...
all magic is essentially law manip as explained here, but it has different additional affects, like fire magic has fire manip + law manip, ice magic has ice manip + law manip and so on
Theglassman12 said:
The whole “affecting other unique skill users” thing doesn’t tell me much for layered hax since you’re just doing power null prior.
Click to expand...
refer to above part for this
Theglassman12 said:
Law hax would need to be separate from this. So far I see 2 layers for both sides here.
Click to expand...
all magic, and skills, are law manip in their core
I linked the blog above, but in the above line I gave the specific scans too in case if you don't have enough time, tho would be better if you read the blog since it has more context

So the whole reason for it reaching 5 layers is because everything in that is law manip at base, but with additional added effects.
Example, shion's skill manipulates laws, normal, and causality + fate, added effect
Rimuru's skill manipulates laws, normal, and has absorption[all types] + some more, added effect.

which is why,

Magic[Law Manip] -> magicians resist it [baseline resistance] -> Anti-magic IS A GREAT MAGIC that works on magicians [1 layer] -> Multi-layered barrier resists it [1 layer resistance]

-> holy MAGIC works on them still [2 layers] -> Unique SKILLS resist it [2 layer resistance] -> Unique skills work on other unique SKILLS [3 layers]

-> Shion's unique skill that works on someone who previously resisted it [4 layers] -> Ultimate skills who resist it [4 layer resistance] -> Ultimate work on other Ultimate skills [5 Layers]
tho all is within the links above already, I just highlighted the important parts to be focused on
 
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Note that most magic through fiction is defined as some force used to bend the laws of reality to obtain a desired effect. We cannot stretch and say that every time magic is used is altering rules and reality in a great scale when almost always the spellcasting limit to perform mundane stuff like manipulating natural elements, boost attributes or alter the mind, nor we can assume that characters needs to specifically resist law/reality manipulation in order to resists such magick.
 
Antoniofer said:
Note that most magic through fiction is defined as some force used to bend the laws of reality to obtain a desired effect. We cannot stretch and say that every time magic is used is altering rules and reality in a great scale when almost always the spellcasting limit to perform mundane stuff like manipulating natural elements, boost attributes or alter the mind, nor we can assume that characters needs to specifically resist law/reality manipulation in order to resists such magick.
Click to expand...
Yeah but this verse laws are conceptual and altering them alters everything around itself
Plus, reality is being altered in a subjective manner
 
Theglassman12 said:
and the post is using anti magic, something not really connected towards law hax, this feels like a stretch and a half to scale something literally made to be anti magic, and scale to the basic applications of magic itself.
Click to expand...
forgot to add it thus edited the previous reply, but saying it again, magic is law manip, and anti-magic is a magic
Antoniofer said:
Note that most magic through fiction is defined as some force used to bend the laws of reality to obtain a desired effect. We cannot stretch and say that every time magic is used is altering rules and reality in a great scale when almost always the spellcasting limit to perform mundane stuff like manipulating natural elements, boost attributes or alter the mind, nor we can assume that characters needs to specifically resist law/reality manipulation in order to resists such magick.
Click to expand...
I agree to that whole heartedly
however, as in one of the scans linked one, ALL magic in itself, IN TENSURA, is law manip

if you're finding it hard because of the lengthy text in many scans, I'll link one short scan that says it pretty directly
 
Theglassman12 said:
@DavidTPPM do you have the scans for the passive mindhax and the soul vapor stuff at baseline
Click to expand...
Yeah.
Baseline mind hax are in these links I linked above + on their profiles. (2 links for Mori, 1 for Mujin)
DavidTPPM said:
Mori Dan and Mujin Park
Click to expand...
And here are soul hax.
Theglassman12 said:
though the karma stuff you’re gonna need some proof that with it, it allowed for layered hax.
Click to expand...
You mean the Mujin verbal mind hax having 2 layers with karma?

What about power mimicry stuff? Is that good?
 
Uh....Martial peak has been accepted to have...32 layers
Also one of the scans heavilly implies that the prota has a curved benis :D :D :D...What is china doing
 
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@Eseseso that would need to be evaluated then.

@DavidTPPM the power mimicry stuff is fine, but the karma stuff specifically you're gonna need to show that it allows someone to hax those with an established resistance.

@Astral_Trinity439 That can work, though I'm not really sure I see layered hax for the unique and ultimate skill users there, especially when it's abilities unique from one another being used on each other and not just people throwing law hax left and right unless it's specified to be such.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@DavidTPPM the power mimicry stuff is fine, but the karma stuff specifically you're gonna need to show that it allows someone to hax those with an established resistance.
Click to expand...
Okay, so out of these
DavidTPPM said:
1.
Mori Dan and Mujin Park have passive mind manipulation that makes people completely submit to them. Mujin Park also has mind manipulation where he commands people to do what he wishes, which was shown to work on characters not affected by their passive mind hax.
Mujins word based Mind Manipulation > Odins and Satans resistance > Mujins passive mind manipulation (1 Layer)

2.
Moris passive mind manipulation after he gained karma has been shown to affect Mujin and Tataghata inside of him, who has previously been completely unaffected by it.
Karma Moris passive mind manipulation > Mujin/Tataghatas resistance > Moris base passive mind manipulation (1 Layer)

3.
Since Mujins verbal mind manipulation has been consistently shown as superior to his passive MM, this relationship should stay the same after he gained karma as well. Seeing as how it upgraded Moris mind manipulation by 1 layer, Mujin should have at least a "Possibly 2 Layers" on his verbal mind manipulation with karma.
Mujins karma verbal mind manipulation > Mujins word based Mind Manipulation > Odins and Satans resistance > Mujins passive mind manipulation (2 Layers)

4.
Satan who could resist Diamond Sutras base ability to turn people into soul vapors was affected by 1800 agonies which clearly started to deconstruct him, although it's not enough to completely deconstruct him in one go. Besides being a supposedly stronger form of attack than 1800 agonies, it's heavily implied that if Satan were to not block the Empty Agonies from the bell, he would have gotten erased. Since the superiority of Empty Agonies is more so implied than shown, I think it's safe to only give it a "likely" rating.
Empty Agonies > 1800 Agonies > Satans resistance > Basic Diamond Sutra attacks (at least 1 Layer, likely 2 Layers)

5.
Satan was shown capable of copying recoiless attacks. Dean stated he can't copy recoiless attacks.
Edit: Dean can perfectly copy both martial arts and Borrowed Powers that he's only seen once
Satans Power Mimicry > Recoiless resistance to PM > Deans PM (1 Layer)
Click to expand...
I only need more evidence for number 3?
 
Oh and BTW can I add the accepted layers on the profiles without making an additional CRT when they're accepted here?
 
Theglassman12 said:
That can work, though I'm not really sure I see layered hax for the unique and ultimate skill users there, especially when it's abilities unique from one another being used on each other and not just people throwing law hax left and right unless it's specified to be such.
Click to expand...
well notice how in the scan it says, "the difference between unique and ultimate skills are" but than says "all skills at their core are ways to manipulate the world laws"
I would say here it refers to all levels of skills, not just normal or common skills
also, Ultimate skills are devices that allow one to manipulate the ultimate principles of the world, so they are indeed law manip, also said here again directly
so Unique and Ultimate skills are actually all just law manip on different levels, so they would give layers as well

is this enough or is there a need for more even proof for both of them being law manip? [though I think this should be enough since its pretty direct
 
Eseseso said:
I mean Makina's profile claims she has unquantifiable layers.
Click to expand...
That because Makina's RE scales to Alice who can instantly break out of Chronois's spatial hax (it works for both resistance and potency).

Makina fought her rival for 100 million years and was evolving through that timeframe but we do not have a exact number for it but its likely more then just 100 million layers even with the lowest of lowballs (1 layer per year). Still there is no exact way of telling.
 
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BoastJr said:
That because Makina's RE scales to Alice who can instantly break out of Chronois's spatial hax (it works for both resistance and potency).

Makina fought her rival for 100 million years and was evolving through that timeframe but we do not have a exact number for it but its likely more then just 100 million layers even with the lowest of lowballs (1 year per layer). Still there is no exact way of telling.
Click to expand...
Uh, you need to get that accepted here on this thread.
 
BoastJr said:
That because Makina's RE scales to Alice who can instantly break out of Chronois's spatial hax (it works for both resistance and potency).

Makina fought her rival for 100 million years and was evolving through that timeframe but we do not have a exact number for it but its likely more then just 100 million layers even with the lowest of lowballs (1 year per layer). Still there is no exact way of telling.
Click to expand...
Characters with RE and can gain resistance to something above their layer, that's still not enough for infinite layers.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Astral_Trinity439 then I’m fine with the layered hax then so long as it’s only for the law hax and not every single unique ability from unique skills
Click to expand...
Okay, than, is there a need of a thread for it or can I implement the changes into their profiles just from this?

Oh, and one more thing
Skills :
Click to expand...
Magic :
Click to expand...
So.... every magic and skill at base also has Subjective Reality/Reality Warping other than law manip
So can the layers apply to subjective reality as well?

And if you don't have enough time to look through all the bundle of scans on each link, here are the specific scans :

Magic : Brings user's imagination into reality, turning non-physical phenomenon into real life, which works by adding your wish into magicules before casting it
Skills : The physical manifestation of user's desires that turns these desires into reality merely by wishing it
 
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