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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

Theglassman12 said:
He’s amping Dracula’s magic himself, Dracula having the abilities and skills of any and all creatures of the night via Power of Dominance would by default let him scale to what Magnus can do at bare minimum.
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See, this is what I was worried about. You're scaling Dracula to an amped version of his own magic, which is circular scaling. Via Power of Dominance, he could potentially amp his magic to those levels, but considering he never does so despite that being really fucking useful when fighting guys who resist his entire arsenal, I don't think this line of logic works.
 
You do realize his power grows stronger every single time he comes back to life right? Thats already accepted on the page and the Belmonts just get stronger and stronger as the generations go down, so there’s already an explanation to begin with.
 
Theglassman12 said:
You do realize his power grows stronger every single time he comes back to life right? Thats already accepted on the page and the Belmonts just get stronger and stronger as the generations go down, so there’s already an explanation to begin with.
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Right, but do those strength increases line up with the amped version of his magic that Magnus uses? If he's superior to Magnus at some point later down the line, then I suppose it's fine.
 
He surpasses basically any and all of them by the time 1999 rolls around, the only thing that remotely eclipses Dracula in terms of higher forms of power at that point is Chaos itself, the literal source of his power.
 
Cool. Glad that's settled, then. May wanna get a staff member to look things over though, I'm just some random asshole who can't evaluate shit.
 
I’ve already asked Planck if he can evaluate since he’s one of the few staff I know who can grasp layered hax, so just gotta wait for him.
 
Spirit Manipulation + Mindhax
The basis of most layers on Touhou stems from phantoms, which passively alter the disposition of those around them. This is an effect that most people can resist. However, grouped phantoms pose a threat to those people, requiring a stronger will in order to resist them. Particularly powerful phantoms have even stronger mindhax, being able to crush the minds of those exposed to them for too long, something which bypasses the prior resistances listed as well. Of course, many characters resist the presence of those phantoms regardless, including Youmu Konpaku, who is right next to a phantom 24/7 (it's literally one half of her own body) and is totally fine. However, Youmu is notably driven insane by the true moon, which has madness-inducing effects and is said to possess a hypnotizing effect once used to control humans on earth. Even if Youmu got fucked over by the moon, most characters - such as other Imperishable Night protagonists, youkai, and Lunarians (who literally live on the moon) - were totally unharmed by it. I should note that Youmu later adapts to the moon, as she straight up visits it in person and is fine.

However, even after the fact, she was driven insane by Clownpiece's torch, which has similar madness inducing effects which specifically target the mind. This is resisted by Marisa, who could battle Clownpiece for an extended period of time without being affected.

Marisa was then affected by Suika's ability to control people's minds in IaMP, which Yukari was unaffected by. Yukari in Imperishable Night can be affected by Reisen's wavelength manipulation, which specifically causes mental effects like madness, hallucinations, and mind control. In PoFV, Reimu is said to be resistant to these effects - although she was affected in Imperishable Night, do note that I've laid out a case for her having reactive evolution in this thread, so this should be fine. Then, in WBaWC, Reimu is controlled by a beast spirit possessing her, and later mind controlled by Yachie Kicchou. However, in the wolf spirit extra stage, it's revealed that the wolf spirit was merely pretending to be controlled, so beast spirits should resist that degree of mindhax. Then, of course, we come to spirit manipulation, wherein spell card users can utilize spiritual attacks that directly harm the spirit (which includes the emotions/subconscious, as the mind and soul are the same in Touhou). This has affected absolutely everyone in the series, so it sits at the very top of this hierarchy at 9 layers.

TL;DR: Individual phantoms --> Regular people --> Grouped phantoms (1 layer) --> Stronger-willed people (1 resistance layer) --> Strong phantoms (2 layers) --> Pre-SSiB Youmu (2 resistance layers) --> The True Moon (3 layers) --> IN cast/Lunarians/Post-SSiB Youmu (3 resistance layers) --> Clownpiece's torch (4 layers) --> Marisa (4 resistance layers) --> Suika's mindhax (5 layers) --> Yukari (5 resistance layers) --> Reisen's wave manipulation (6 layers) --> PoFV Reimu (6 resistance layers) --> Beast spirit possession/Yachie's mindhax (7 layers) --> Beast spirits (8 resistance layers) --> Spirit manipulation (9 layers).

There's a lot more to it than this, but this is a good baseline.

Probability/Fate Manipulation
To start, potency and resistance are one and the same when indexing fortune; Just as a person with a lot of luck becomes more fortunate, they also become resistant to attempts to override that fortune. So any increase in potency is an increase in resistances, and vice-versa.

The main mechanic here is fortune, which is a measure of control over the "memory" of prior events that can be used to alter probability and fate, typically via good luck charms. Marisa's Mini-Hakkero is one such good luck charm, giving her baseline fortune. However, she's shown to be affected by Shion's misfortune aura in WaHH, so Shion has one layer. Mokou (and a few other characters, but I'm picking Mokou because I like her :3) can fight Shion in AoCF without getting ganked by her aura, so she scales above it. Shion can possess people to afflict them with misfortune, which causes those immune to her passive aura to become affected and instantly lose (this happens in almost every route). Tenshi resists this possession due to her inexhaustible fortune (with Shion noting her power doesn't really work on her), giving her another layer, while Shion can release her aura all at once for greater effect, which can affect Tenshi. Reimu also gets affected by this full power aura, until adapting to it.

Side note, as Lunarians are basically just Celestials with an even more absurd superiority complex, they scale to 4 layers.

TL;DR: Marisa/the Mini-Hakkero --> Base Shion (1 layer) --> Mokou (2 layers) --> Shion's possession (3 layers) --> Tenshi (4 layers) --> Full power Shion (5 layers) --> Post-adaptation Reimu (6 layers)

Time Manipulation
Several characters are responsible for the eternal night in Imperishable Night, which froze the flow of time. Kaguya Houraisan later uses her own control over eternity to "take complete control over" time, shattering the spell of eternal night and causing time to flow once more; As this isn't really conventional power null and is moreso an application of her own time manipulation, I believe this should count as another layer. The IN cast themselves, however, is able to resist her time manipulation, as they can easily move throughout Eientei, a place affected by the spell of eternity, causing time to stop flowing. Sakuya is able to freeze many of those characters in time as well, as well as resist her own time stop.

TL;DR: Imperishable Night cast's time stop --> Kaguya's time manipulation (1 layer) --> IN cast's resistance to time manipulation (1 layer) --> Sakuya's time manipulation (2 layers) --> Sakuya's resistance to time manipulation (2 layers)

There's a lot more but I'm fucking hungry so I don't feel like typing anymore lol
 
Fine, I'll do it this way then.
LtX2qH4.jpg

Te5MsZz.jpg

But if the layers are fine, then that's great. Thanks for the evaluation, although I'll probably be back here if anything else needs evaluating.
 
As far as verses go, there's Epic Battle Fantasy.

In Epic Battle Fantasy 5, Matt and the gang survive Delete Earth unscathed, which is Existence Erasure from The Devourer. The Devourer is superior to the Cosmic Gigalith, which itself would eventually erase the universe from existence. However, in doing so, Matt and the gang gain the Delete status, which deals more damage over time as the Devourer continually tries to erase Matt and the gang from existence. This should qualify for at least one layer, two if the Cosmic Gigalith's EE itself is considered a layer below the Devourer's.
 
@Flashlight237 the Cosmic Gigalith would need some showings of affecting someone with resistance, and then someone resisting that only for Devourer to erase them for it to be 2 layers. Either that or you have to prove that with whatever stronger energy source EBF uses, it results in one bypassing resistances of someone weaker as if it’s a common thing. Maybe 1 layer at best but that’s assuming the cast can shrug off Gigalith’s EE with no issue.

@LephyrTheRevanchist looks good to me.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Flashlight237 the Cosmic Gigalith would need some showings of affecting someone with resistance, and then someone resisting that only for Devourer to erase them for it to be 2 layers. Either that or you have to prove that with whatever stronger energy source EBF uses, it results in one bypassing resistances of someone weaker as if it’s a common thing. Maybe 1 layer at best but that’s assuming the cast can shrug off Gigalith’s EE with no issue.

@LephyrTheRevanchist looks good to me.
Click to expand...
It's linked in the Devourer's profile under Existence Erasure that the Cosmic Gigalith is disintegrating the universe while Matt and the gang are there and they basically just manage to walk it off like nothing, but if you really want a video, well, here you go:


Both Earth and the party managed to stick around with the Gigalith's passive EE being a thing.

Then after that, we got the Devourer's EE, which did this:


Earth got deleted, but Matt and the gang still survive, but with the Delete status tacked onto them. The status (as you would see from the guy hovering over the red X icon for it) does more and more damage to players as the Devourer continually tries to erase the party from existence.
 
So, this is for HxH.

Basically, Nen has the property to induce madness and fear, and every nen user is able to fight against other nen users without feeling fear and madness. This is baseline resistance. Now, here comes Knov, a dude who also has these resistances due to having nen, but he was scared shitless by Pitou's Aura. This should grant one layer above baseline for fear and madness for anyone at Pitou's level and above (Meruem, for example), no?
 
Would this be layered?

The verse has realm suppression; a higher realm suppressing a lower realm to make the target powerless, for example through their aura. Later a higher realm than the previous scan suppressed a lower realm without even fully releasing their actual realm and it is explicitly indicated that this suppression operates through realms once more and regardless of how many there are of the lower realm cultivators or what methods, techniques or treasures they use, they can't overcome this.

It also applies to within a realm, the previous scan is of Nascent Soul (here is a visual representation of its divisions), the MC released pressure against an opponent that was in the Nascent Soul realm. However, due to the MC's misjudgement, assuming the opponent was of a middle Nascent Soul level, the applied pressure, intended only to be just a greater pressure, inadvertently led to the destruction of the soul of the Nascent Soul individual who did not belong to the middle tier as assumed.

Edit: The first scan is a Xiantian suppressing someone below them (Xiantian = 10th level)
Click to expand...
 
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Dragonite007 said:
We can't see your sandbox
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I'll just put it as a quote.

First Layer

Dimensional Fusion/Dimensional Barrier Destruction/Non-Physical Interaction: (Spatial - Encroachment is the phenomenon of assimilating parts of the real world with magano by prying open the dimensional barrier. Kegare who possess as much spiritual power as Hijirimaru are able to assimilate the real world to the extent that he was going to assimilate an entire city over a short time[1]. Kegare who possess as much spiritual power as him or even more should logically be able to perform the same feat on a greater scale. Kegare on the weaker side are also capable of doing this on a smaller scale[2])

Second Layer

Spatial Consumption: Twelve Guardian Commander, Kankuro Mitosaka possesses an ability known as "Kegare Eater" (which consumes space itself). The same Kegare who possess incredible spiritual power capable of breaking the dimensional barrier are easily killed off by the Kegare Eater.

Third Layer

Resistance to Spatial Consumption: Rokuro Enmadou is then unaffected by the space consuming Kegare Eater, being said to end up in the hospital at worst if hit by it

Fourth Layer

Spatial Manipulation, BFR, Void Manipulation: Sakanashi's enchantment "Puppet of Ultimate Darkness" gives him the ability to control space which he uses to send things to different locations or into a void. Exorcists such as the head exorcist Arima Tsuchimikado and 12 Guardian member Arata Inanaki who would resist kegare eater by virtue of possessing more spiritual power than Rokuro are easily vulnerable to this enchantment.

Fifth Layer

Spatial Aura & Resistance to Spatial Manipulation: In the fight between Great Yin Benio Enmadou and Great Yang Rokuro Enmadou, they are shown warping the space of Magano, with their sheer spiritual power. Described as a martial spat on a different level, surpassing both humans and kegare alike. As the Great Yang, Rokuro is completely unaffected by Sakanashi's "Puppets of Ultimate Darkness" and his attacks ignore their spatial and void rending properties.
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Muchacho_mrm said:
Would this be layered?
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I feel that they should also have this as layered.

A cultivator regens from their core. What that 'core' is changes with cultivation but their indestructible nature does not. It makes them unkillable to people of the same realm.

A Golden Core cultivator's 'core' is indestructible, eternal and cannot be erased. This is negated by the next cultivation realm, the Nascent Soul realm. The Nascent Soul realm gain an indestructible true spirit, however unlike before it isn't the next cultivation realm that negates this but the one after that. The Soul Formation gain one too, it is also indestructible but this time it can't be restrained nor imprisoned.
Click to expand...

Edit: The last cultivation realm also has another benefit. Mind manipulation in the verse happens through the soul. MC used soul search on someone to look at their memories and their indestructible, unrestrainable, etc, nature also extends to soul search which the MC can negate. I don't know what else it can get but the person he was soul searching wasn't normal, he had "tens of millions" of souls that are all him and MC went through it all.




Really important edit: The verse has yet to be added to the wiki, so I will create a CRT and have the layers passed there then return to this thread for further evaluation.
 
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@Muchacho_mrm the Golden core thing doesn’t tell me much on layers given the whole “higher realm can destroy it”, so that just sounds like a tiering thing more than layered hax. The Aura part looks fine.

@Dragonite007 that looks fine.

@Arkenis Drop those layers down by one and that looks fine.
 
Btw, a clarifying about Anima's resistances: I already stated that Gnosis values do not interact with the Resistances most of the cases, and that Gnosis itself does not grant necessary an immunity or resistance beyond the general rules (like the summoning skills), but now I should left at least a placeholder at the very least.

See, in the same way DnD characters have a right for a Saving Throw (if available), here characters have a right for a Resistance Check (if available); going for DnD's logic above (or any other similar ttrpg here), every resistance level above baseline would be considered one layer. Now, what would be a baseline, well, I'll use the peasant and hunter as baseline (because the common person), and with all resistances at 20, that means any increament above that would be an additional layer. Now, even tho one roll 1d100, I would not consider 1 an layer, as the resistances increases in a factor of +5 after Lv 0 (either by levelling-up or by increasing one range of their respective attribute). It may be possible to increase the resistance by lower values, as there are disadvantages that halves the resistances, but I not go ahead of myself.

It is also possible to temporary obtain a bonus to the roll in certain circunstances granted the character have developed the Composure skill.

If being honest, I find this ttrpg ruling a little odd and arbitrary for some reasons, as is based in characters always getting a "default result" in the check (generally half the die value) and assuming the status effects are binary (either you ate the whole effect, or you are completely fine), as well as not being consistent with other mechanics (like re-rolling, powers that allows you to get a benefit if you get a [x] in the dice, weakness that force you to pass a resistance check, etc.). But given that is which people have accepted for these circunstances, I just decided to use this already used method for dterminating resistances for the time being.

So, in short, baseline resistance is 20, and every +5 above would be a layer (50 would be 6 layers, 95 would be 15 layers, etc.)
 
BrackishBrineBroth said:
Out of curiosity, where was it originally decided that saving throw #'s =layers when it comes to ttrpgs?
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Must have been people from DnD or Warhammer to agree with that. Two editions of DnD have the "take 10" rule where they can choose to get a 10 and discard any die randomization, however that rule only applies to skill checks and only works under certain circunstances.
 
Theglassman12 said:
the Golden core thing doesn’t tell me much on layers given the whole “higher realm can destroy it”, so that just sounds like a tiering thing more than layered hax.
Click to expand...
Yeah, maybe. I still need to create a hax CRT for the verse soon.

As for the Golden Core bit, its indestructibleness is its nature. It also has the nature of not being able to be erased. The verse makes no reference to power nor the use of some special technique or treasure to bypass this but by reaching the next realm. And the realm after expands on that aspect saying you'd need to change the rules of their cultivation system to bypass it.

I currently have the indestructible nature listed as limited invulnerability in my sandbox. Which I am not sure can be layered given the fact that durability negation exist. The CRT should probably have a better structure in explaining it.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Arkenis the first one sounds like baseline resistance, not layers.
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Its their spiritual power being able to destroy dimensional barriers, they then are unable to resist against the Kegare Eater which devours them. Its the base spatial manipulation thats inferior to the Kegare Eater.
 
@Arkenis thats still at best baseline resistance for the first section. For layered hax to start you need to affect someone with hax they resist in the first place, which is what Kegare Eater qualifies for. Like I said the layered should be down by 1, so it would be 4 layered spatial hax there.
 
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