Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

[Franstel]

Does these characters qualify for infinite layers and if not how many layers does they have?

The characters in question are Kvasir, Seidr and Gullveig from Fire Emblem Heroes, these 3 characters are not yet on the wiki but have profile in construction. They are the same person but at different point in time. The main plot of the chapters is that Gullveig is a powerful seer manipulating that aim to destroy the world.
Her time powers are so great that the main cast is powerless against her, their only options were to run away from every confrotations or die as seen in the first chapter of the book https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Time/Story and the opening movie. Since the main cast already got a resistance to time manipulation from the tempest it should be at least 1 layer.

The argument for infinte layers come from chapter 11 where we learn the source of the powers of the golden seer, https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Without_Limits/Story

"Nerbuz: The cycle is the source of the power the golden serpents hold. Kvasir turns into Seiðr, Seiðr turns to Gullveig... These events, along with the ritual, grants the serpents power. Then Gullveig becomes Kvasir and returns to the past... Kvasir turns into Seiðr, Seiðr turns to Gullveig... Once again, the ritual grants the serpents power.

The cycle repeats without end, each time the power of the golden serpents growing without limit.

Seidr: ...

Nerþuz: If we can recover my Aurr, we will be able to access a power that should be enough to stop the golden serpents.I will be able to use the power only once—but that alone will not earn us victory over the serpents. Like I said before, their power is limitless.

Alfonse: Then...how can we hope to defeat them?

Nerþuz: The key to our strategy will be 【Summoner】.

Alfonse: ...What is it exactly that you need【Summoner】 to do?

Nerþuz: Within the cycle, all things repeat in an endless loop... The cycle occurs over and over, without end... Not even the summoner is beyond the cycle of time. Each of us is bound by it. However, as the god of the land, my love for you adorable things has allowed me to sense something... The you here, in this moment... There's something different about you, 【Summoner】. You alone are the exception—of allthe uncountable summoners named【Summoner】 out there... Why you? That, even I don't know... Perhaps you have some idea?

Sharena : So, you'll do something to save us
then, right, 【Summoner】?!

Alfonse : But...if the power of the serpents is truly limitless, then...how? Will we be able to cycle through endless loops as well?

Nerbuz : That's exactly right. What a smart little thing you are!

Alfonse : How can we create an endlessly repeating cycle?

Nerbuz : For the answer to that question, you will have to look not to me, but to the summoner. ...That is, if this works. We need to recover my Aurr before anything else. Let's hurry now. "


“Nerbuz: It is the weapon of some other summoner from some other time— a now-dead 【Summoner】... After that summoner fell to Gullveig, the weapon must have traveled back along with Kvasir.

Sharena: Then that would mean...

Alfonse: Lady Nerþuz bestowed her power on Breidablik at some point… Gullveig fought the summoner, and the weapon followed Kvasir back in time... Then Kvasir gave that same weapon to our 【Summoner】.

Nerbuz: And now I will bestow my power on this weapon—this weapon that
has already received my blessing. Again, it gains the land's power. If this cycle has already looped upon itself infinitely...

Alfonse: The power of Breidablik will be without limit...”

So in short the powers of the golden curse of Gullveig and the powers that was bestowed to Seidr by the Breidablik at stacked upon an infinite cycle.

There’s also that thing that Alfonse said but even in context it’s unclear what he meant by that so it’s best to leave that aside.

In the ending movie we can see that Seidr managed to cancel out Gullveig’s powers .

The infinite layers would only apply for these 3 characters and only for their abilities on time, the powers that derived from that power over time such as for example their existance erasure and the powers granted by the Breidablik and the golden curse.

 

[Deceived3596]

I believe this blog was posted previously by another user, but since it wasn't the person who actually made the blog, I'm guessing it wasn't actually reviewed?

Could be wrong, but that matters not since as the person who did make the blog, it would be nice to get confirmation on if anything within it needs to me changed.

Everything is pretty well explained and evidenced in the blog itself, so I won't do any explaining here. If yins need help with understanding anything, I will gladly help out when I have the free time to do so.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Robo432343 sounds like 1 layer to me for MLP, Bastard's 5-6 layered hax looks fine.

@Lynieryz none of that remotely tells me anything about layered hax.

@Franstel That doesn't sound like infinite layers, that's just saying the cycle is repeating itself infinite number of times. You'd need proof that each cycle, the characters have a stronger resistance to the ability than the previous loop, and it rinse and repeating over and over an infinite number of times for it to qualify, the 1 layer is fine.

@Deceived3596 The blog itself is fine, don't really see anything wrong with it.

 

[Lynieryz]

@Lynieryz none of that remotely tells me anything about layered hax.

It's about lihiko's power nullification being layered; he nullified all skills, which include:

Najimi couldn't nullify Medaka's The End with Life Zero, but Iihiko was able to nullify Medaka's The End.

 

[Theglassman12]

That doesn't tell me that she'd resist it, just that she can't win even if she used it on her, which just tells me she'd have more on her sleeve even if she got power nulled.

 

[Franstel]

@Franstel That doesn't sound like infinite layers, that's just saying the cycle is repeating itself infinite number of times. You'd need proof that each cycle, the characters have a stronger resistance to the ability than the previous loop, and it rinse and repeating over and over an infinite number of times for it to qualify, the 1 layer is fine.

It's said multiple times that the golden curse/ snakes (the source of Gullveig's powers) grow stronger with each new cycle like here "The cycle repeats without end, each time the power of the golden serpents growing without limit." and it's said that they were an infinte number of cycles, also the powers of the snakes are explicitly called limitless multiples times.

The only way the protagonists had to destroy the goden snakes was to build an infinite might for themselves by empeworing the breidablik with Nerbuz powers howewer "Nerbuz: I will be able to use the power only once—but that alone will not earn us victory over the serpents." So they had to apply Nerbuz powers again in each loop over an infinite number of them.

"Alfonse: Lady Nerþuz bestowed her power on Breidablik at some point... Gullveig fought the summoner, and the weapon followed Kvasir back in time... Then Kvasir gave that same weapon to our 【Summoner】.
Nerbuz: And now I will bestow my power on this weapon—this weapon that has already received my blessing."
And it wasn't until the infinite cycle of stacking Nerbuz's powers was over that they could finally break the curse inside Seidr and finally stand a chance against Gullveig's powers.

 

[Theglassman12]

Growing stronger wouldn’t imply layered hax unless you can prove that it bypasses layers as a result, Ergenverse is a prime example of where one’s power (or Cultivation level) verbatim states that higher cultivation level can hax those with weaker levels despite their established resistances.

 

[Lynieryz]

That doesn't tell me that she'd resist it, just that she can't win even if she used it on her, which just tells me she'd have more on her sleeve even if she got power nulled.

Without her powers, she has nothing but physical strength[moon level], and she is inferior in strength to Najimi, who literally withstood the Big Bang that created everything.

 

[Theglassman12]

That still doesn’t tell me anything for layered hax, you’d need that elaborated on it being because she’s resistant to it.

 

[Lynieryz]

That still doesn’t tell me anything for layered hax, you’d need that elaborated on it being because she’s resistant to it.

She fought against Najimi and copied her abilities with The End. If Life Zero was able to nullify The End, she wouldn't have copied Najimi's abilities. Besides, there is literally nothing she can do to beat Najimi without her own abilities.

 

[Franstel]

Growing stronger wouldn’t imply layered hax unless you can prove that it bypasses layers as a result, Ergenverse is a prime example of where one’s power (or Cultivation level) verbatim states that higher cultivation level can hax those with weaker levels despite their established resistances.

Well the power from the Aurr is said to counter the golden curse "Nerþuz: If we can recover my Aurr, we will be able to access a power that should be enough to stop the golden serpents." but never had any effect on it and every cycles played the same until it got a similar number of loop, then it destroyed the curse right away and after Seidr absorbed that power she could cancel Gullveig's own powers.

Time Manipulation isn't a quantifiable thing so it's unlikely that it is an increase in potency, plus since the power bestowed by Nerbuz serves as a direct counter to the golden curse but didn't have any effect until it got the same amount of loop, it can mean that it did have a greater amount of layer.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Lynieryz can you post the scans of Najimu's abilities not working on Medaka in the first place? Because that's kinda needed if you wanna argue Iihiko's abilities are layered in the first place.

@Franstel Time Manipulation being unquantifiable doesn't really matter when it comes to layered hax, when this is quantifying how potent the abilities are to begin with. Like I said you need to prove the timeloop stuff can hax people who are resistance to all the prior loops, and the resistances and said resistance bypassing stacks on top of each other in every single future loop. That's what's needed for this to be infinite layers.

 

[ByArrow]

Willow overcomes the mind control resistance of Anya, who is resistant to mind manipulation.

Does this count as layered hax?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

She fought against Najimi and copied her abilities with The End. If Life Zero was able to nullify The End, she wouldn't have copied Najimi's abilities. Besides, there is literally nothing she can do to beat Najimi without her own abilities.

I think it mean that she is unable to defeat Medaka because of her plot armor.

 

[Lynieryz]

@Lynieryz can you post the scans of Najimu's abilities not working on Medaka in the first place? Because that's kinda needed if you wanna argue Iihiko's abilities are layered in the first place.

There is no scan as their fight happened off-screen, but we know that Medaka managed to copy Najimi's abilities, which would not be possible if Life Zero were able to affect Medaka.

 

[Franstel]

@Franstel Time Manipulation being unquantifiable doesn't really matter when it comes to layered hax, when this is quantifying how potent the abilities are to begin with. Like I said you need to prove the timeloop stuff can hax people who are resistance to all the prior loops, and the resistances and said resistance bypassing stacks on top of each other in every single future loop. That's what's needed for this to be infinite layers.

If it must necesserally be seen overcoming a resistance then it probably only qualify for a single layer, perhaps two, as since it’s said every loop played the same except for the last, no one has ever resisted her powers (at least from what we’ve seen), not even her own creator, whose powers come from the same source as her, as she killed him in a single thought, the only one who ever could resist her powers (aside from the likes of Alfadr) was Seidr after inheriting the power of the breidablik.

The only argument for bypassing resistance would now come from the fact that she did end up bypassing the others gods of time's powers after a certain point. So it would be something like that:

Layer 0: Most characters with among them the main cast (have a resistance to time manip via resisting the tempest).
Layer 1: The gods of time : Seidr (Base), Nerbuz, Heidr and Gullveig’s creator Njord (Can affect the previous characters despite their resistance, can resist time manip with their own time manip).
(At least) Layer 2 : Gullveig and Seidr (Powered) (Despite their powers over time, the gods are powerless against Gullveig that can kill them on the spot as soon as she use her time manip as seen when she killed Njord in chapter 10 https://feheroes.fandom.com/wiki/Your_Wish,_Granted and Seidr is at that point comprable to Gullveig).


Now the question is does she gain that additionnal layer as soon as she got the curse or did she gain it over time. We know that the golden curse was created by Njordr and the Arr the source of his power, so since the golden curse come from his own powers it’s unlikely that the snakes/curse would already be that much stronger than him to the point that he would be powerless against them by the moment of it’s creation. So that left us with the possibility that she gained that layer over time, we know that her powers has gotten infinitly stronger from the infinite number of cycles. So no matter how many cycles it took her to get that layer, if it’s a finite number then as an infinite number of loop happened, the number of layer gained would also be infinite.


The main problem of that argument comes from the fact that it may have taken an infinite amount of cycles to get that layer and in that case they would only have 2 layer. So now it’s up to interpretation whether it’s infinite layers or 2 layers. I would say that the infinite layers would make more sense as the powers of both Gullveig and Seidr (once powered) are constently called limitless.

 

[TheGatememer]

Wondering if this would be enough for Layered Hax/Resistance for Magic in Fire Emblem.

Basically, Fire Emblem has a Magic Stat, and Resistance Stat. How it works is that, if your Resistance stat is equal to the Enemy’s Magic stat (and any subsequent bonuses thereafter), you take zero damage.

This also similarly applies to magic staves (which inflict status effects as opposed to dealing damage) in Geneaology of the Holy War, and Thracia 776. In those games, if your Resistance stat is greater than, or equal to the user’s Magic stat, it won’t affect you, which can also be seen in the stave’s flavor text:

Applies Sleep to target with lower Mag than the user's. Ignores Throne/Gate*

(Note: Mag and Res are the same stat in Thracia 776)

The layers would vary from character to character, since different characters have access to stat-boosting skills, items, etc that boost their Mag/Res by different amounts. Can’t exactly use ingame statistics for, well, obvious reasons

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheGatememer the Magic resistance is mostly built around tanking magic like the elemental spells to not take much damage moreso than any hax oriented stuff. As for the staff I’m not fully sure if it would count given how the other games make it to where it just has a low chance of landing but it actually landing would put the user to sleep regardless of what their Res stats would be.

 

[TheGatememer]

@TheGatememer the Magic resistance is mostly built around tanking magic like the elemental spells to not take much damage moreso than any hax oriented stuff. As for the staff I’m not fully sure if it would count given how the other games make it to where it just has a low chance of landing but it actually landing would put the user to sleep regardless of what their Res stats would be.

Yea it’s why I specified that it applies to staves from Geneaology, and Thracia specifically. I don’t have the scan on hand, but there was a supporting statement recently made in FEH which implied that staves work differently depending on the continent they are from.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Can magic and resistance stats be used as layers?

An elemental magic hax will have no effect if it's used on someone with more resistance than the caster.

 

[Theglassman12]

@TheGatememer If you can prove there’s some form of lore thing to justify Geneology and Thracia’s staves working against magic stuff then sure. If not then idk if this would qualify

@EL_xWatcher1234x if the series itself qualifies those resistance stats as layers like how DnD and Anima does then sure.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

if the series itself qualifies those resistance stats as layers like how DnD and Anima does then sure.

Can you show me how DnD or Anima's layers work?

BTW, when the gap between the caster and his target is huge, His target was stated to be immune from all of his elemental magic hax. Does it help?

 

[Eseseso]

Can you show me how DnD or Anima's layers work?

BTW, when the gap between the caster and his target is huge, His target was stated to be immune from all of his elemental magic hax. Does it help?

Pretty D&D is like the most blatant example of hax layers.

If you have 1 more level of hax above your opponent, them using that hax will do nothing to you while you using that hax against them will no-sell all their resistances to said hax.

 

[Rikimarox2]

So, I'm indexing a verse (cultivation), and I wanted to know if this is enough to assume layers between levels of realms.

So, basically the MC is at the Divine Altar Realm, and he can unleash a pressure that is able to make people at that realm and below unable to move, whereas those above (Supernatural realm) are fine.

Fast forward, after reaching a high level in the Divine Altar Realm, he's now able to pressure even dudes who are in the Supernatural realm. This is the case for a lot of abilities, such as fire manip, and power null unable to affect people who are stronger than him (Even though stronger here means spiritually, as the realms are more focused on the mind and soul instead of the physical body).

Would this be enough to assume layers between levels of a realm, or at least Realms? Since even his powernull doesn't work on someone who is stronger than him, such as a level 2 divine altar realm while he is level 1.

 

[Rutæhh]

Mind hax layers for Varney
Baseline resistance: People at the adventure club have powerful mental barriers which block out mind control
1 Layer: Vampire's are able to hypnotise the entire adventure club.
1 layer resistance: Julian is able to break free from the hypnotism with John Taylor's help and supernatural willpower
2 Layer: Varney is are able to take control of Julian again with ease.

3 layers for Walker's Voice as it can't be resisted or disregarded

 

[SatellaTheWoE]

Old Wilhelm

Invisible or not, Wilhelm with skill can anticipate his opponents attacks by watching the movement of their eyes, feeling their hostility, reading how they breathe as they aim

““Wi—”

Mad with rage, the woman thrust both hands forward; simultaneously arms spewed from her shadow, assaulting the Sword Devil.

Their ferocity compelled Subaru to instantly shout for him to dodge, but he wasn’t in time. The black, evil hands ought to have grasped Wilhelm’s limbs, cruelly rending his flesh asunder—

But they did not.

A silver flash ran across the sky, and droplets of blood spurted from the woman’s neck.

“If the human launching the attack is in plain sight before you, it can be anticipated, invisible or not. By watching the movement of her eyes, feeling her hostility, reading how she breathes as she aims, it was all too clear.”

“—”

The Sword Devil made that frightening declaration having completely anticipated the pitch-black, evil hands, striking them down with his sword. Without exaggeration, his evasive timing was perfect; his talk of reading her breaths was no mere boast. His shocking combat skill had blunted the advantage posed by the invisible hands.

„~ Volume 8, Chapter 2

Adding on to this, as shown under the "Instinctive Action" section, Julius can instinctively react to attacks. It is also shown that he does so to invisible attacks

“Julius emerged from behind a cover of dense trees within the forest. The moment he did, his very flesh reacted to the hail of the invisible light-missiles with the physical enhancement gifted to him by Ine, the light-element greater spirit. It was the same card he had played in his battle with Cecils, one that substantially improved Julius’s reactions. The moment his heightened senses detected an attack, he would bring up his sword to block it at the speed of thought.„~ Ex Novel 4, Diplomacy by Bloodshed

Yet Julius was helpless against the Unseen Hands, only Subaru could detect them

“Their numbers were probably thirty—an invisible menace in numbers somewhat above what Petelgeuse had controlled.

“Sir Subaru! Indicate the arms’ locations!”

Wilhelm shouted, sword poised, with Ferris tumbled at his feet. The Sword Devil’s request caused those who had initially taken flight to look at Subaru. Their morale was hardly broken, but they had no countermeasure beyond Subaru.

Understanding his duty, Subaru squinted at the evil hands. He would not let them add to the corpses of his allies. However, as if to mock his determination, the evil hands…

“They vanished…?!”

The hands made of black mist gently dissolved into dust from the fingertips down. In an instant, the thirty hands dissipated. Subaru, unable to discern his opponent’s intent, watched with a stiff face.

“Bro, what happened to the attack?! Where’s it comin’ from?!”

“They vanished! They were pulled back! I don’t know why!”

Replying to Ricardo’s angry shout with an angry shout of his own, Subaru desperately swept his gaze across the area.

Subaru was the only one who could detect Unseen Hands, which attacked with neither sound nor aura. The life or death of his allies depended on his actions. That fact made Subaru earnest in his efforts

„~ Volume 8, Chapter 2

So despite the Unseen Hands being even more invisible than Balleroy's invisible attacks, it's still something Wilhelm can predict
Thus, Wilhelm should have layered invisibility detection via skill, Petelgeuse's arms should have layered invisibility and Subaru should have layered invisibility detection

Also, Ley and Ram both upscale from the Julius feat and can react to invisible things on instinct

Ram was able to avoid fatal wounds, despite dealing with countless invisible explosions, inside a corridor

“The invisible explosions──Rem had already saw through that trick. It’s a special magic where he can cause explosions on the spot by setting up magic formulas in the air beforehand. It definitely would’ve been very troublesome for her without her background knowledge. However, once she’d figured out the trick, it was no big deal.

Rem had exposed it with her sense of smell, but Ram saw through it by the disturbance in mana right before the explosions. [Faust: Wow, not bad.] [Ram: Kohhh──!] Faist dodges her first attack, and he ignited countless spells while falling back. While he freely covered the corridor with explosive flames, Ram avoided fatal wounds with her supernatural body movement. Yes, she avoided just the fatal wounds. She couldn’t avoid her arm getting lacerated, her legs getting burnt, and her hair burning. But they were still miraculously minor injuries once you considered the amount of explosions and the scale of them.

However both Ley and Ram cannot sense his wind magic attacks which Ram also copies later on and Ley runs straight into it due to being unable to sense it
Thus the wind magic they have should be layered invisibility

Also due to the flow method, anybody scaling to Old Wilhelm and above should also scale to this feat

Re:Zero: Warriors and The Flow Method

vsbattles.fandom.com

Here is the blog if you want to understand why they scale to one another

Also Sekhmet's UH cannot be seen by Subaru so that has 2 layers of invisiblity

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

How many layers did Arifureta lose/have? And this in regards to the verse's conceptual manipulation, right?

About 20

 

[BrackishBrineBroth]

About 20

They have 20 or they lost it?

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

They have 20 or they lost it?

The number of accepted layers.

 

[deonment]

Oh yeah, might at well do this also
Hollow Knight as a verse has a few layers, mainly stemming from the Soul Sanctum and Higher Beings
The reasoning for the first two can be seen in this thread
Which tldr;
Non-Folly and Mistake Soul Sanctum Enemies (1 Layer)
Higher Beings and their descendants (2 Layers)

Next up is the fact that vessels, despite having the above resistances, were still affected by The Infection, with the Broken Vessel and The Hollow Knight being the main examples of this, with most vessels being discarded for having emotions, or thoughts. However, The Hollow Knight as he was was the chosen vessel amongst the rest to seal away The Infection, as to quote:

"No cost too great. No mind to think. No will to break. No voice to cry suffering. Born of God and Void. You shall seal the blinding light that plagues their dreams. You are the Vessel. You are the Hollow Knight." -Pale King

And was able to withstand having the entirety of The Infection and the Radiance locked up inside him for a long period of time, which should be an additional layer, but as The Radiance was able to still corrupt it via The Infection, its mind and bio hax would scale here

And that really it as anything else is just, dealing with the section of the verse that just has immunity to stuff, so tldr;
Mind and Bio Hax
Follies and Mistakes(0 Layers)<Soul Sanctum/Soul Masters (1 Layer)<Higher Beings(2 Layers)<Vessel Resistance/The Hollow Knight(3 Layers)<The Radiance/The Infection(4 Layers)

 

[Brogeefrong]

Sonic the hedgehog Information/Law/Causality Manipulation layers
Baseline: Void is referred to as the dark aspect of the dreams which make up Maginaryworld, a place where the dreams of all others in the multiverse conjoin, which would include the Ancients' dream of persisting their legacy in Cyber Space. Lumina stated the power of his darkness was wreaking havoc across Maginaryworld, which would eventually cause Maginaryworld to cease existing[1])

Baseline Resistance: The Sonic Shuffle Cast can take attacks from Void (around 6:00)

1 Layer Potency: Time Eater, Dr. Eggman stated to have used the Time Eater's Existing Erasure powers to undo all of his previous defeats[3] by erasing all of reality.[4] Which would include Maginaryworld, a realm which houses dreams within Fourth Dimensional Space that contains all dreams from the multiverse [a space which in itself is Illumina's dream][5], which would Include the Ancients' Dream of persisting their legacy with Cyber Space[6]. It was noted that Sonic and Classic Sonic had to restore the flow of time to restore their friends, including Amy, Knuckles and Tails, who were unaffected by Void's presence and attacks)

1 Layer Resistence: Sonic was unaffected by the Time Eater erasing history and all space-time/reality, leaving everything as a colorless timeless void. It was noted that Sonic and Classic Sonic had to restore the flow of time to restore their friends, including Amy, Knuckles and Tails, who were unaffected by Void's presence and attacks)

2 Layer Potency: Cyber Corruption is shown to be able effect Sonic, which the corrupt stems from the realm of Cyber Space

2 Layer Resistance: Sonic transforming into Super halted the Corruption

3 Layer Potency: After gaining control over his Cyber Corruption, Sonic is able to corrupt himself, to transform into Cyber Super Sonic

3 Layer Resistance: Sonic is able to with stand his Cyber Corruption in his Cyber Super State

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rikimarox2 that can work yeah.

@Rutæhh looks like 2 layers there, not seeing the second layer resistance for the 3rd layer to be justified.

@SatellaTheWoE looks fine, though its not invisibility detection, that's just enhanced senses.

@deonment yeah the first section doesn't tell me much on layers, even in the CRT since being stronger doesn't automatically mean layered hax unless you can prove it means to bypass one's resistance. The latter argument looks fine, so like 1-2 layers for that.

@Brogeefrong Yeah uhh, how is Cyber corruption remotely comparable to Time Eater's EE? Those are two separate abilities and wouldn't qualify for scaling unless you can prove they're tied to the same source a la cultivation. Not really seeing the layered causality and law hax here, I can see the EE stuff layers for Void and time eater but that would go up to 1 layer. Sonic's corruption thing would just be 1 layer at best.

 

[Brogeefrong]

@Brogeefrong Yeah uhh, how is Cyber corruption remotely comparable to Time Eater's EE? Those are two separate abilities and wouldn't qualify for scaling unless you can prove they're tied to the same source a la cultivation. Not really seeing the layered causality and law hax here, I can see the EE stuff layers for Void and time eater but that would go up to 1 layer. Sonic's corruption thing would just be 1 layer at best.

Cyber Corruption induces Information/Causality/Law Hax

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah not really seeing causality and law hax there, plus the "transcend causality" stuff just sounds like type 4 Acausality and not layered hax.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Cyber Corruption induces Information/Causality/Law Hax

Could you not go around sharing this stuff when it's not even accepted yet?

Hell, Shake's not even fully done with it. So again, just don't.

 

[Brogeefrong]

Yeah not really seeing causality and law hax there, plus the "transcend causality" stuff just sounds like type 4 Acausality and not layered hax.

the causality/law stuff got accepted before hand

Could you not go around sharing this stuff when it's not even accepted yet?

Hell, Shake's not even fully done with it. So again, just don't.

though it was accepted by now cause 2 staff votes oops

 

[Eseseso]

Cyber Corruption induces Information/Causality/Law Hax

Brogee, you should not use Shake's sandbox, which hasn't even been accepted yet, without his permission.

Shame on you for not even bothering to ask.

Of course, you could also tone down your other Sonic stuff, but especially this.

 

[deonment]

@deonment yeah the first section doesn't tell me much on layers, even in the CRT since being stronger doesn't automatically mean layered hax unless you can prove it means to bypass one's resistance. The latter argument looks fine, so like 1-2 layers for that.

If it is about the higher being layer it is less them being stronger, and moreso that higher beings can all utilize a pure focus, which was the ultimate goal for the Soul Sanctum that none of them ever achieved, so they should have more resistance to the negative effects of their experiments. Even moreso with The Knight and The Hollow Knight (as the Pure Vessel) both being able to focus in-game (with it being a core game mechanic for the former and a pattern in his fight for the latter) without any of the associated negative effects of the Soul Sanctum experiments, which we know was the injection of SOUL.

If your issue is with the Soul Santcum Layers. The justification is less about it being stronger and more about the above bit on achieving a pure focus, so the most successful product of these experiments (which is "separate" from the label of the strongest) should be closer to such. This in conjunction with the fact that the Hunter's Journal Entry for them, calls them once intelligent and when Dream Nailed, the Mistakes and Follies produce Dialogue like this:

• ...Why...Why...?
• ...Light....Soul...Light!
• ...Did it work...?
  -Mistake and Folly Dream Nail Dialogue

Whereas the rest of the Soul Santcum enemies are called learned or intelligent in their Hunter's Journal Entry and produce Dialogue like this:

• ...I feel them within me...
• ...Power...Light...Rage...
• ...Mind swells...Mind aches...
  -Volt Twister and Soul Twister Dream Nail Dialogue

• This soul...Is it my own?
• ...This power...What did it cost?
• These skills...No training I recall...
  -Soul Warrior Dream Nail Dialogue

This clearly contrasts the dialogue of the Mistakes and Follies, which is done even moreso by the Soul Master/Soul Tyrant's dialogues, which would be easier to show you if I just linked the wiki here and here (scroll down till you see the dialogue header and open that).

Which could be used to argue another layer between normal scholars and the Soul Master but idk.

 

[Theglassman12]

@deonment For the layered hax to work the lesser beings would need to be resistant to the normal effects of the SOUL injection as opposed to it being limited. As for the soul sanctum and soul tyrant stuff, not fully sure on this for it being layered hax, that would need some elaboration for it to be layered, like the soul sanctum being completely fine from the former stuff, but the stronger effects they’re susceptible to only for the stronger beings to resist that one easily.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

Layers for Cradle

Willverse Authority Layers

vsbattles.fandom.com