Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Isn't this just an increase in potency.(DK much about Nasu)

 

[Theglassman12]

@WHYNAUT i already said it works for layered hax.

@Seracle already saw the infinite glare thing, not remotely close to argue infinite layers. The Kama stuff also doesn’t help for layered hax when the context is making their resistance weaker, AKA resistance negation, and the infinite mana thing isn’t enough for infinite layers.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Finally back from exams, so I can catch up with this stuff.

@Rabbit2002 The scan with the chaos resistance stuff helps in terms of resistances, the blog you linked however doesn't help me much in terms of established layered hax so again I'm gonna need a bit more that shows every stair translates to another layer of hax.

Cultivation Levels Differences
The basic truth that of cultivation levels are higher cultivators are stronger while lower cultivators are weaker, neither being able to surpass the limits set on them by their levels. You can't defeat a higher cultivator, foes can simply disregard whatever hax/abilities you have provided you're of a lower cultivation level. However, there are certain geniuses that can fight that can challenged higher cultivators.Essentially your ability wouldn't work against a higher cultivator and the cultivators that can challenge higher cultivators also have a limit, for example Yang Qi who couldn't affect the fate of people over several levels above him at the time.
Now, from the perspective of a higher cultivator against a lower cultivator, they're easy pickings. While those of their own level can usually resist, lower cultivators are almost always victims and while unnecessary we do sometimes get specific level difference reminders such as a Nonary Lifeseizer's devilization ability against even Quinary lifeseizers (4 levels below)

Also, that blog is about the names of the realms to avoid confusion, if it's about layers, then here

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rabbit2002 ok now I can see some layered hax for the stairs of cultivation.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rikimarox2 @WHYNAUT Can either of you specify for your verses that got evaluated how many layers they'd have with this so I can document what exactly is accepted, and provide some scans if possible please?

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 ok now I can see some layered hax for the stairs of cultivation.

So I guess infinite layers hax is legit now, right?

Will Convergence introduces how even Small Ladders of Deathless/Immortality can increase their realm and cultivation to infinity because the more concentrated their will, the higher their realm. The pinnacle of Immortality Ladders is the Great Emperor, and thus they have infinite layers (For Yang Qi (First key))


For His second key, Destiny (氣運) is proportional to the level of cultivation, the more/higher it is, the stronger the cultivation will be. Basically if an empire expands its empire to the level of God Realm, their cultivation base/destiny will be enhanced infinitely. Basically infinite layers and Yang Qi do this via His Sage Monarch Empire

 

[Rikimarox2]

@Rikimarox2 @WHYNAUT Can either of you specify for your verses that got evaluated how many layers they'd have with this so I can document what exactly is accepted, and provide some scans if possible please?

Don't really have time rn since I don't have a pc, but basically, anything that was related to the mind barrier scan will be like, either 10 or 20-30 layers or smth, depending on how we interpret the same rank resistance. each rank has 3 levels, and there are ranks from F- to SSS+/EX, with each rank having 3 marks, like E-, E, E+. This also applies to the power null.

Some stuff has to be removed, like the layering to law manip, as well as some other shenanigans which I'll try to delve deeper into it once I get back to the pc.

Fyi the verse is outdated, so I'll have to change a lot of stuff.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rabbit2002 the infinite void and other stuff is too vague for the infinite layers, plus the other link doesn't tell me anything about infinite stairs, just 9 stairs so 9 layers from what I'm seeing.

@Rikimarox2 That's fine, take your time.

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 the infinite void and other stuff is too vague for the infinite layers, plus the other link doesn't tell me anything about infinite stairs, just 9 stairs so 9 layers from what I'm seeing.

Wait, what infinite void?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rabbit2002 The imgur scan you linked that talks about infinite fate, void, etc. If that's supposed to be proof for infinite layers I'm not seeing it given how vague it is, plus I've said the 9 stairs you've linked has some evidence for layered hax, the rest not really.

 

[KingNanaya]

@WHYNAUT i already said it works for layered hax.

@Seracle already saw the infinite glare thing, not remotely close to argue infinite layers. The Kama stuff also doesn’t help for layered hax when the context is making their resistance weaker, AKA resistance negation, and the infinite mana thing isn’t enough for infinite layers.

so, how many layers is Nasu at now?

 

[Theglassman12]

I've not given any exact number of layers, just that there exists layered hax. The exact number should be given with scans to support said case if possible.

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 the infinite void and other stuff is too vague for the infinite layers, plus the other link doesn't tell me anything about infinite stairs, just 9 stairs so 9 layers from what I'm seeing.

Not only are there 9 stairs, but each large realm (mortal, immortal) has 9 smaller stairs/realms. With the Mortal Five Great Realms (Energy arts, Lifeseizer, Legendary, Great Sage, Demi-immortals) there are basically 39 layers (since the first to fifth stairs of the first Great Realm don't have any hax/abilities to scale)
Each Immortal's Great Realm's small stair have the same difference as Mortal's lowest and highest stairs.
Even the highest Stair (Dao-Demolisher) of the First Great Realm (Demolishing) cannot escape and resist the laws and destiny of the First Ranked Immortal World.
Additionally, the difference between Mortal World and First Ranked-Immortal Worlds is equivalent to four Immortal Planes ranks. Three thousand ranks = 263,250 layers (39 x 9 x 3000/4). This applies to the two keys as they each have their own three thousandth ranked immortal worlds on both planes (4-D/5D and 6-D)
If you take infinite then there are many other things. In Great Sage Planet-Step, achievements and power are determined by the number of planetary illusions you resist (resistance to soul manipulation/EE), Yang Qi was able to resist an infinite number of planets
Or the concentration level, the power of magical laws that I mentioned before. Weaker/Weakened magical laws will make it easier to bend (which is normally impossible) and stronger/more condensed magicial laws are essentially layered resistance + hax potency. Combined with Primal chaos, Heaven Beyond Heavens contains an infinite sea of chaos, each drop can affect cultivators resistant to layered chaos manipulation. Heaven Beyond Heaven as a whole has been declared filled with the infinite power of magical laws. Yang Qi with a weaker cultivation base than Grand Emperor compressed it to the size of a hand and was not affected by its law/chaos manipulation

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

What's the situation for Arifureta's layers?

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 The imgur scan you linked that talks about infinite fate, void, etc. If that's supposed to be proof for infinite layers I'm not seeing it given how vague it is, plus I've said the 9 stairs you've linked has some evidence for layered hax, the rest not really.

The rest?

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rabbit2002 Yeah the sea being boundless doesn't really mean infinite since it can also mean immense, like its just ridiculously large in size, though the shrinkage of it translating to stronger potency does help. Same with the planets since nothing mentions there being actual infinite numbers of planets, just that there's billions of them being used on him with "seemingly no end" but that doesn't really prove infinite, so the sea stuff is an unquantifiable layers, while the planet one would be roughly in the billions as a low ball. So that can help

 

[Theglassman12]

As for the Arifureta layers, I'm not seeing the Overload stuff being stronger hax since "putting a great burden on the user is too vague to mention it directly attacking the soul. Also the lack of scans doesn't really help much on a defined layers beyond mentioning evolution magic with no proof on one being superior to the other. At best I can see like 4-5 layers here, the abstract stuff doesn't tell me much on the resistance, just that making them a concept makes them stronger, plus the fact concept magic is considered top tier in the verse doesn't really help much with the layered hax here.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

As for the Arifureta layers, I'm not seeing the Overload stuff being stronger hax since "putting a great burden on the user is too vague to mention it directly attacking the soul. Also the lack of scans doesn't really help much on a defined layers beyond mentioning evolution magic with no proof on one being superior to the other. At best I can see like 4-5 layers here, the abstract stuff doesn't tell me much on the resistance, just that making them a concept makes them stronger, plus the fact concept magic is considered top tier in the verse doesn't really help much with the layered hax here.

Fair enough with the Overload part, for the rest my answer would be the same than to everything

Just recently saw this so gonna answer to @Everything12

From what I understand your only problems/doubts are the green text stuff you wrote right? If that's the case gonna answer:

About evolution magic, yes, for example by using it someone can upgrade their resistance to a hax that would affect them, after all the point of evolution magic is to upgrade abilities to a higher tier. (edit: Also, just noticed that I should also had clarified something regarding hax resistances. In Arifureta people have stats, and among said stats exist the Magic Defense stat, which grant resistance to hax, and the resistance to haxs of characters depend of said stat, this is the reason to why, for example, apostles are immune to most hax in verse due to how high said stat is, so is very simple to see why something like evolution magic is so useful in this context, because it lets the user change the value of their stats and stuff, like in the above Shea scan where she increase with it her stats to the point of be unaffected by hax.)

To point that even while severely weakened Laus spirit magic overcome apostleified spirit magic.

By itself no, but in this case this conceptual enhancement (which specifically strengthened his soul) is something that upgrade a character in general, like an hax that would previously kill someone now don't do much after get said stuff, the point of the linked scan was to show that.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Fair enough with the Overload part, for the rest my answer would be the same than to everything

I thought people with strong soul have a better resistance, like Laus resisting Ehit or being able to multiply his stats ×10 this is higher than Overload and we saw in Zero that ×12 can cause death.

 

[WHYNAUT]

@Rikimarox2 @WHYNAUT Can either of you specify for your verses that got evaluated how many layers they'd have with this so I can document what exactly is accepted, and provide some scans if possible please?

It's case by case, depending on the character and ability in question. But since the layers are based on having greater paracausal power (with it being possible for somewhat comparable characters to have a layer between them), high- and top tiers would have an undefined, but immense amount of layers. Wouldn't it be fine to work out the specifics in matches, as long as the existence of layers and how they work is accepted here?

Btw, you can remove the Taken part from the OP. Taken power is also just another form of paracausal power.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

I thought people with strong soul have a better resistance, like Laus resisting Ehit or being able to multiply his stats ×10 this is higher than Overload and we saw in Zero that ×12 can cause death.

In the case of Overload the soul is put under such pressure that it would get destroyed despite being able to resist Limit Break effects in the soul, but since there is no interaction with another person I can see why people wouldn't consider it an additional layer and just an increase in potency and I'm not going to defend with a sword such a minor part of the scaling. Also, the second part of what you said is just completely irrelevant and doesn't help to argue for layers, as the person who introduced the layers scaling please let me argue and debate them, I appreciate the effort but I prefer it that way.

 

[Theglassman12]

@WHYNAUT I’d prefer it to be explained in the profiles if possible but if it’s too much atm then sure, so long as there’s scans to back it up for said character in the threads.

 

[WHYNAUT]

@WHYNAUT I’d prefer it to be explained in the profiles if possible but if it’s too much atm then sure, so long as there’s scans to back it up for said character in the threads.

I'll add it to a Paracausality explanation page for the verse at some point then. It might take a while before that happens though.

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 Yeah the sea being boundless doesn't really mean infinite since it can also mean immense, like its just ridiculously large in size, though the shrinkage of it translating to stronger potency does help. Same with the planets since nothing mentions there being actual infinite numbers of planets, just that there's billions of them being used on him with "seemingly no end" but that doesn't really prove infinite., so the sea stuff is an unquantifiable layers, while the planet one would be roughly in the billions as a low ball. So that can help

As for the planets, raw says they are infinite/endless (無窮無盡)

After a while, it reached 100 million, then 200 million, 300 million...
The last billion, tens of billions...
Endless, as many planets as Hengsha smashed into the depths of Yang Qi's sea of consciousness
不一會兒，就到達了一億，然後兩億，三億……..
最後十億，百億……
無窮無盡，恒沙一般數目的星球砸入了楊奇的識海深處 Chapter 464

As for the shrinkage, what was shrinking was not just the entire sea but also the entire Heavens Beyond Heavens which was much larger than Yang Qi's exploration ability which could cover the infinite recursion of infinite worlds within worlds. So it's basically infinite contraction, regardless of whether the ocean is infinite or not

Is this the strength of the mythical realm? There are wonderful flowers in the void. Each flower is different.There are infinite worlds in the flowers. There are worlds within worlds, the cycle continues endlessly...
The blossoming void rune flowers give birth to one world after another in the depths. Worlds including worlds, endlessly, which is not something ordinary immortal flowers can compare to. - Chapter 630

Thankfully, the five pieces he did have were giving him access to power, as well as secrets of the temple that would help him to improve his cultivation base and gain a greater control of the Heaven Beyond Heaven.
This immortal world was so immense that not even Yang Qi could fully probe its depths. But he was currently at its core, and if he could seize this temple, he would have access to even greater amounts of the vital energy of the place.
SNICK!
He exhaled, sending out a stream of true energy that glowed with godlight as it swept around the temple. 'Maybe Chancellor Demi-Immortal's destiny will be of some help here.' chapter 794

As he drew on the Aeon Portal, the Heaven Beyond Heaven began to shrink down in primal-chaos. It shrank down into the primal-chaos paleo-energy.
In the blink of an eye, it was millions upon millions of times smaller.
A few hours later, the Heaven Beyond Heaven was gone. A thirty-third ranked immortal world had vanished without a trace. It was almost as if it had vanished like a mirage.
Meanwhile, within the primal-chaos paleo-energy, Yang Qi had the Aeon God Battleship hovering above his head. It was only the size of a hand, and then he let out a shout. Chapter 830

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah still not sure about the ocean size, the planets however I’m fine with infinite layers for that.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Yeah still not sure about the ocean size, the planets however I’m fine with infinite layers for that.

The most abundant thing as well as filling everywhere in Heavens Beyond Heavens is Primeval God Formations, which is made up of magical laws that can lock and paralyze everything. Oceans and primal chaos are just manifestations of those God Formation (being supported by Law users in the verse means being able to spam chaos over the entire area. ). The shrinking is also the shrinking of the laws as mentioned above. So the infinite God Formations (Since HBH is much larger than baseline 2-A) can also be understood as infinite chaos oceans since the ocean is just a manifestation
For planets one:

Since Infinite layers are just Great Sage Planet-Step, which is much lower than Ninth-order Demi Immortal. And for immortals, each level is the difference between mortal with barely any abilities and resistances and Ninth order Demi Immortal (infinite layers are in between both), and I'll repeat them here. Does this count as Infinite to power of the thousands of layers (Since infinite layers were accepted, it would be infinite ^ (9/4 x 3000) aka infinite ^ 6750) ?

Not only are there 9 stairs, but each large realm (mortal, immortal) has 9 smaller stairs/realms. With the Mortal Five Great Realms (Energy arts, Lifeseizer, Legendary, Great Sage, Demi-immortals) there are basically 39 layers (since the first to fifth stairs of the first Great Realm don't have any hax/abilities to scale)
Each Immortal's Great Realm's small stair have the same difference as Mortal's lowest and highest stairs.
Even the highest Stair (Dao-Demolisher) of the First Great Realm (Demolishing) cannot escape and resist the laws and destiny of the First Ranked Immortal World.
Additionally, the difference between Mortal World and First Ranked-Immortal Worlds is equivalent to four Immortal Planes ranks. Three thousand ranks = 263,250 layers (39 x 9 x 3000/4). This applies to the two keys as they each have their own three thousandth ranked immortal worlds on both planes (4-D/5D and 6-D)
If you take infinite then there are many other things. In Great Sage Planet-Step, achievements and power are determined by the number of planetary illusions you resist (resistance to soul manipulation/EE), Yang Qi was able to resist an infinite number of planets

 

[Theglassman12]

That would only be infinite^6750 if someone actually withstood all the planets from all realms simultaneously, as of now it’s just infinite layers. Also I’m still not seeing the ocean stuff for infinite layers here.

 

[Rabbit2002]

That would only be infinite^6750 if someone actually withstood all the planets from all realms simultaneously, as of now it’s just infinite layers. Also I’m still not seeing the ocean stuff for infinite layers here.

Why is one or more realms higher than infinite layers still just infinite layers even though the difference between it and infinite layers is even greater than infinite layers and baseline?

 

[Theglassman12]

Because you haven’t provided any scans on the bonus realms being withstood by Yang Qi, we’re going by the feats shown.

 

[Rabbit2002]

Because you haven’t provided any scans on the bonus realms being withstood by Yang Qi, we’re going by the feats shown.

Yang Qi's strength and cultivation are getting higher and higher depending on the number of chapters, but for the highest level of the two keys:
In the First key, he considers millions of Three-Thousandth ranked Immortal Worlds (what I calculated to be infinite^6750) as cells or control them arbitrarily, such as shrinking them down to a finite size, which both increases potency and indicates a complete degree of control over the entire shrunken thing. In planets scan it is said that only by resisting the planet's anger then he can control it (tldr: complete control means he endures all the planets of the highest Realm).

A three-dimensional projection of a perfect god body floated in front of him, complete with crystalline representations of every cell that made him up. It almost looked like the greyspace of a god kingdom or an immortal world.
The body had as many cells as the eternal sands of the universe, all of them like immortal worlds with a rank of three thousand or more.
In other words, this body might as well have been made up of millions upon millions of immortal worlds.
Creating a god body like that would require immense amounts of power, so much so that it was virtually incalculable. Chapter 1127

“Annulled Grand Magic!” Yang Qi said. “All treasures, come to me! All immortal worlds, come under my control. All immortal worlds with a rank of three thousand, shrink down and enter the Sage Monarch League!”
In response to his words, the three thousandth ranked immortal world that had been ejected did just that.Being wrapped up by Yang Qi’s godpower, they shrank down and entered the Sage Monarch League, which was now filling up with more and more worlds. Chapter 1131

Only if a cultivator could resist the fury that the god-spirits of planets could unleash would they possibly be able to control an entire planet. Chapter 464

An immortal world was essentially like a whole collection of planetary systems from the mortal world. And even just one planet in a planetary system might have countless empires, civilizations, and a sprawling history. Chapter 693

In the second Key, the entire three thousandth ranked immortal worlds is a small part of the cruiser that he has control over

It almost looked like an enormous, crystal turtle. In terms of size, it actually didn’t measure up to the Deva Dynasty. However, its destiny was fully ten times that of the Deva Dynasty. Although it was far beneath the level of the Land of Flowerhill, it was a perfect location for business out on the ocean.
Yang Qi could see that the interior of the headquarters was its own minor world, complete with a sun, moon, stars, mountains, rivers, plants and vegetation. By the standards of the impure lands, this would count as an immortal world with a rank of more than three thousand. Chapter 1435

Before, Marquis Three Realms, Chiliocosm Hegemon, and the others had at least been able to struggle against the Great Necropolis. But now they were completely crushed.
Yang Qi had vanquished the Crystalline Turtle Shell Kingdom and made it part of the Cruiser of Civilization. As a result, his cultivation base was climbing higher. Chapter 1439

The interior of the gourd contained countless god kingdoms, and was obviously a powerful preheaven treasure, pulsing with destiny.
In fact, the destiny was almost like a burning fire that ignited Yang Qi’s hand when he touched it. Yang Qi exhaled, using a dhāraṇī incantation that sent an army of sage monarch magistrates into the gourd.
Time passed.
Yang Qi waved his hand, sending a host of heavenly caliber godstones flying into the gourd to power its spell formations. They instantly whirred to life.
RUUUUMBLE....
The gourd trembled, then erupted with god kingdoms, almost exactly like the Great Necropolis had ejected three thousandth ranked immortal worlds in the past. As a result, the Cruiser of Civilization began changing dramatically. Thankfully, the leaders of the Sage Monarch Society were there to control things, and help use the transformation to improve destiny. Chapter 1441

 

[Theglassman12]

Yeah I’m still not seeing it, infinite layers is the most I’m seeing for the verse.

 

[KingNanaya]

infinite layers is the most I’m seeing for the verse.

Ain't that the max???

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Ain't that the max???

if we can use set theory for tiers then we can use set theory for layers

 

[Rabbit2002]

Yeah I’m still not seeing it, infinite layers is the most I’m seeing for the verse.

As for the ocean, if infinite layers were accepted and the ocean had unquantifiable layers. Since the two overlap (ocean's baseline level is much higher than planets) then can it be unquantifiably/countlessly above infinite layers? You're fine with stair of cultivation = layers hax and baseline infinite layers are also low level in there, so it wouldn't make sense to think of infinite as the highest level

@Rabbit2002 ok now I can see some layered hax for the stairs of cultivation.

 

[Theglassman12]

@KingNanaya not always given fiction differs a lot in terms of their hax potency.

@Rabbit2002 the ocean only talks about the chaos and disorder at best, nothing about mind and soul hax potency that the planets have.

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

So I made a blog for the DBH layers so feel free to evaluate. Happy new year!

 

[Matrixxxx]

I am very curious about the Yang Qi hax layers, I think it used to take infinite layers but it was reduced.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Dagoth_OwO The scans for "stronger time power means resistance" doesn't really mention that, it just mentions how Chronoa is using a basic level of space time power compared to more advanced abilities that Aios uses, the scans on the user resisting their own abilities is fine though. The 3rd layer with the game footage and manga showing is a bit weird since the manga just shows Aios unimpressed more than shocked that she's casting a time spell on her, is there anything that further implies she was indeed affected and couldn't break out of it easily? For the 5th layer does Chronoa remotely use her time power unleashed state on Fu? Because her base form being used makes this a 1st layer thing at best unless further specified. For the 7th layer, do we have any evidence that Aios sealed away Dogidogi? That would help with the layer rather than some assumptions here. 9 and 10 is too vague, especially when restoring the multiverse doesn't automatically mean superior power unless stated that Mechi couldn't be able to do anything about it. The rest looks fine.

 

[Rabbit2002]

@KingNanaya not always given fiction differs a lot in terms of their hax potency.

@Rabbit2002 the ocean only talks about the chaos and disorder at best, nothing about mind and soul hax potency that the planets have.

Fortunately, Yang Qi's mind is already Primal-chaos, so yes it is also chaos hax potency

The truth was that, after reaching the sixth Legendary transformation, and acquiring the God Legion Paradise, Yang Qi was already strong enough to kill Great Sages with the Yore-Wilds’ Heart fragment, the Grand Emperor's Pagoda, and the Heaven-Dominating Golden Swordbreaker. But now, he had primal-chaos paleo-energy and immortal formations;
it was now hard to say exactly how strong he was.
After gaining enlightenment, he sent his mind out to become one with that energy, which had led to even greater
advancement. Then, using the power of five million megamammoths, he drew upon the power of the spell
formations, whose power was like that of an army of Great Sages all working together. In fact, that power could spread out to cover thousands upon thousands of kilometers, and
combined to become one massive primal-chaos spell formation. Chapter 326

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Btw wanted to ask if layered CM1 can be like this
Exist as the source of something><there's another being who's existence is the reason for your CM1<there's another being again who engineered all of that as well