Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 that doesn’t exactly refute the point that being stronger doesn’t automatically mean layered hax, the feats of affecting people with resistances is needed for layered hax.

Haven't I already provided that? Yang Qi's abilities cannot affect Fifth Stage Demolisher unless using more true energy, essentially one layer, though he still cannot affect Sixth Stage Demonlisher because of the insufficient cultivation base, essentially two layer. In the next two chapters he was able to affect them (Grand Duke Bloodstabber), but after that he still couldn't affect Seventh Stage Demolishing (Immortal Anscestor), forcing him to increase his cultivation base to Demolishing to be able to do that, and that's basically three layers. Or the example of Immortal Worlds and condensed magical laws (tldr: The more condensed, the stronger the potency will be, ten times condensed = powernull The Godmyths though they are resistant to layered powernull. And infinite * infinite times condensed < Great Emperors <<< Cave Temple of Varja < Three Hundredth ranked Immortal Worlds <<<<<<<< Three Thousandth Immortal Worlds ~<< Yang Qi in both keys)

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rabbit2002 the first link doesn't remotely mention that, it said he can alter the fate of it, but needed a lot more to do more crazy stuff to it. The rest doesn't really tell me much on layered hax, especially since you're not showing me specific text that shows they resisted an ability only for them to be affected by a superior version of the hax.

 

[Rakih_Elyan]

since you're not showing me specific text that shows they resisted an ability only for them

was able to affect them (Grand Duke Bloodstabber), but after that he still couldn't affect Seventh Stage Demolishing (Immortal Anscestor), forcing him to increase his cultivation base to Demolishing to be able to do that,

Dunno man, sound like a resistance to me.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Rakih_Elyan screenshot the text that mentions this, I'm not reading an entire chapter to find your point.

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rabbit2002 the first link doesn't remotely mention that, it said he can alter the fate of it, but needed a lot more to do more crazy stuff to it. The rest doesn't really tell me much on layered hax, especially since you're not showing me specific text that shows they resisted an ability only for them to be affected by a superior version of the hax.

Well the translation is basically readable but not really accurate about feat. I just threw it because it's more convenient and don't think there's much deviation in that part. Basically he needs more true energy to be able to successfully influence them (fifth stage), not to manipulate more. Also I don't understand why this isn't resistance, not only does it say they are affected by the advanced version of hax but it even says it will be difficult (impossible) for hax to affect them

The truth was that, given the level of his cultivation base, he could only use the fate of a fifth stage Demolisher, or even a World-Demolisher. Furthermore, it would take a huge amount of true energy, and would require him to lower the density of his imperial blood in order to succeed.
Sixth stage Abstrusity-Demolishers were immortal paragons, and their fates were so powerful that they could touch upon the door of profundity, and understand the truth of magical laws. Because of that, it was difficult to spin the Wheel of Fate to change someone's fate.
Of course, that was because Yang Qi's cultivation base wasn't high enough
實際上，現在楊奇的修為，隻能夠推動五層破碎，碎界境界的仙侯命運，而且推動仙侯的命運，自身要消耗大量真氣，甚至降低上帝之血的濃度，才能夠一舉成功，把敵人說死。
到達了六層碎玄的人，仙尊境界，命運強大，接觸到達了玄妙之門，法則中的真理，冥冥之中，就有一股我命由我不由天的味道，難以轉動命運輪盤改變對方的命運。
當然，這是楊奇修為不足的原因。
他晉升到達了破碎境界，就可以一言定六層仙尊的生死了，甚至還可以影響七層仙祖的命運。Chapter 582

Even the slightest rotation of the Wheel of Fate was unable to resolve it.
He knew that the higher one's realm was, the more powerful one's destiny would be, and the harder it would be for the Wheel of Destiny to change the trajectory of others' destinies. Mammoth Dharma-Heaven's cultivation base was in the immortal ancestor level, and he wasn't someone Yang Qi could deal with. Chapter 593

 For Magical laws, As shown above Great Sages (even if they are resistant to powernulls from domains from Great Sages and lower Legandaries as well as other reasons) are even subject to powernulls, including their most basic abilities such as flight and movement, even the ability to breathe because of the gap between the mortal worlds (their universe/plane) and the immortal world. And that's just the lowest level of Immortal Worlds, immortal worlds are essentially cultivation systems unto themselves. With the difference between mortal worlds and first ranked immortal worlds it was possible to neutralize the power of the Great Sage.

It was similar to how, when mortal worlds transformed into immortal worlds, the magical laws would become stronger and denser. Those were the same kind of restrictions that seemed to have locked onto his nascent divinity.
In the mortal world, Great Sages could pierce through space, traveling from one planetary system to another. An example of that was how Yang Qi had traveled from the Rich-Lush Continent to the Quake-Dawn Continent.
However, if a Great Sage went to an immortal world, even the lowest level like the first ranked Titan Emperor Heaven, they would hardly be able to move. Forget flying, they would actually have difficulty breathing.
That was because of the restrictions binding the world itself.
Similarly, Demolishers who went to a thirty-third ranked immortal world would also be unable to fly

Thirty-three ranks, with the move from first ranked to fourth or fifth ranked being considered the difference between mortal worlds and immortal worlds, the verse even explains this process as each three ranks will be a ladder. So basically eleven - twelve layers of resistance and powernull (people can fly on the lower layer and resist power nullification from it, but on the upper layer they can't because stronger magical laws/powernull bypass their resistance).

Beyond the Brahman River is an immortal world, the Brahman World. That's the true face of our headquarters. The headquarters of the Brahman Society is actually an immortal world called the Brahman Immortal World. It's a fifth ranked immortal world. There are millions upon millions of immortal worlds in the universe, and they are divided into thirty-three ranks. Every three ranks is a ladder. The Titan Emperor Heaven is the lowest of the immortal worlds. The Hanging Heaven, Black Sand Heaven, and other immortal worlds are second ranked. In the Thirty-Six Thousand Immortal Worlds Coalition, most of the immortal worlds are second, or third ranked. They're the lowest. That's why they're governed by the Brahman Immortal World. "
Time passed hour by hour, and the river gradually entered the depths of the river.
Hu Latu explained to Yang Qi.
"So, that's how it is."
Yang Qi had a general idea of what was going on.
There were thirty-three ranks of immortal worlds, and every three ranks was a level. The Thirty-Six Thousand Immortal Worlds Coalition consisted of the lowest of the three ranks. Yang Qi did some calculations and sent his will into the depths of space-time.
In the blink of an eye, he saw numerous immortal worlds that looked like planets embedded in the universe. He was in the middle of all thirty-six thousand immortal worlds, and the magical laws of space here surpassed any of the other immortal worlds. In fact, coming here from the Titan Emperor Heaven would be like ascending from the mortal world to the immortal world. Chapter 623

And Godmyth can basically fly at the highest layer which is the baseline at condensed laws (with ten times enough powernull them. It's about "concentrating potency on one person to make it stronger and influence those who possess resistance" as you said)

Blurring into motion, he found himself in a thirty-third ranked immortal world, one of the highest planes of the universe. Tempests raged in all directions, making it almost uninhabited. The primal-chaos debris was filled with ancient beasts. To low-level immortals, it was a hell of nightmares. But to high-level immortals, it was a holy land of cultivation, filled with treasures. Killing primal-chaos beasts could lead to magical treasures and medicinal pills that could be used to advance one's cultivation base.

As for Godmyths, they were everywhere.
In other immortal worlds, Godmyths were the patriarchs, and had a very high position. But here in the Tusita Heaven, they were like country squires, with very low status.
The hierarchy in the Tusita Heaven was very clear. Every level of advancement in the Godmyth level would lead to a different level of status. There was a huge difference between high and low levels. When low-level people saw high-ranking Godmyths passing by, or even flying through the air, they would step to the side and offer formal salutations. Chapter 733

From the primal-chaos, the Dao Defense League looked like an enormous vortex of stars, with a hundred trillion immortal worlds congealing into it. In the blink of an eye, it had shrunk down to ten times its original size. However, it was still enormous, and in fact, the entire area was undergoing fundamental transformations.
It was almost as if some ancient god were trying to shrink the Dao Defense League down to a smaller size.
At the borders of the Dao Defense League, space was torn apart, revealing universes, and spatial tempests that swept through the space-time of various immortal worlds.
"League-Lord, what are you doing?" Patriarch Annalist and the others were visibly shocked. "If you condense the hundred trillion immortal worlds of the Dao Defense League, Although it can make the laws tighter, ordinary immortals may lose most of their magical powers because of the solidification of the laws."
固然能夠使得法則更加緊密，但是普通的仙人因為法則的凝固，恐怕會失去大部分的神通啊
The hundred trillion immortal worlds of the Dao Defense League were being compressed and compressed by Yang Qi, causing the quality of the worlds to rise. Normally speaking, some immortals would be able to teleport through space, but in the Dao Defense League, they wouldn't be able to do so.
In fact, early Godmyths wouldn't even be able to teleport through space. Only Godmyths who had reached a very high level would be able to fly through space. Unfortunately, their ability to move would be greatly reduced. Chapter 861

 

[Rabbit2002]

@Rakih_Elyan screenshot the text that mentions this, I'm not reading an entire chapter to find your point.

Additionally, this also favors higher cultivation base = higher resistance or possessing resistance since Great Sages if not Legendaries already possess resistance to Primal Chaos/Chaos manipulation.

Yang Qi, are you sure you want to enter this chaos?"
A look of fear appeared on Ghost Emperor Yama's face. "Although the Rich-Lush Continent is only the size of a hand, it's in a very unique location. This primal-chaos energy was left behind by one of the most powerful entities in the Yore-Wilds Continent, a primal-chaos elder-immortal. Years ago, he fought a powerful entity from the Hell of Euphoria, and lost a chunk of his flesh and blood. "In the end, a group of Great Sages worked together to create a primal-chaos mirror. That's one of the special aspects of the Rich-Lush Continent, and one of the reasons why it's so popular. Years ago, the old-timers from the Quake-Dawn Cathedral worked together to seal me here, hoping to use the primal-chaos vital energy to kill me. Sadly for them, I gained enlightenment of the ultimate transformations of primal-chaos, and survived." Chapter 308

As said above, Immortal World's Primal Chaos is even layered enough to affect the highest Godmyth like Chaos Gods and require cultivation base at the fifth and sixth stair to resist (For Hierarchy of cultivation base: Legendary < Great Sage < Demi Immortal < Demolishing < Godmyth. Each has nine ranks)

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

yeah still not seeing layered hax here.

I'm against layers because every hax in the verse depend on magic power, and can't affect someone with more magic power than the user.

the petrification stuff at the beginning has some merits with layered hax.

it can't work if the target have more magic power than the user.

the only layer : human>hyuman

“Ah! Damn it! So it won’t work if I don’t give it resistance to the petrification itself huh. Then how about this?!” (Makoto)

After meditating, Makoto once again puts his hand on the table and pours magic power.

The two Gorgons watch attentively. Even if it was only for an instant, they lost their words after seeing the table turned back from its petrified state. On the other hand, Ema didn’t show much agitation and is looking at Makoto. The girl that got surprised every time by Makoto is already gone.

This time, matching the words of Makoto, the table that returned to its wooden state didn’t turn back to stone.

Even after a while, it didn’t turn into stone again.

“Unbelievable”Chapter110

an object resisted this by puting mana into it.
mana=resistance to mana

 

[Seracle]

@Seracle Can you organize the post to be more organized cause I can barely understand most of this post.

Ok. 2 common ways that I know to scale layer in Nasuverse are using Mystery or Magical Energy.
1. Mystery is the how "supernatural" thing is. Magic, vampire, phantasmal beast,... are all "Mysteries", and an older and stronger Mystery will beat a more recent and weaker one (it's vague ik, but it's a general rule here) to the point where it completely nullifies them.
Example: Lugh Beowulf, a 2000 years old creature, is able to invalidate anything a modern Mage can throw at him while also piercing a story/law-based conceptual defense of another mysterious being namely the Bridge Giant with only 1000 years worth of Mystery, which modern mage like Touko can't in the first place and defeating it.
=> If B has a stronger/older Mystery than A, any haxes A uses on B won't have any effects, and A can't resist any haxes from B. But if C has a stronger/older Mystery than B, B can't resist any haxes from C.
=> if B has baseline hax, then C has 1 layer hax. It doesn't matter if C's list of haxes is different from A, cuz even if A has some of C's haxes, they will still be nullified by B based on the general rule unless stated otherwise. So whenever we have A < B < C in term of Mystery, every haxes of C will have 1 more layer than B.
(I can stop here but I want to talk about Authority since it's brought up so many times.)
931 BC is the end of the Age of Gods when Solomon died, which is 931 BC. The Age of Gods is when Gods, or Divine Spirits, simply exist. That means if you picked anyone who exists after that (which is a lot in Nasuverse since many stories usually took place in modern era) and you are able to prove they have x-layered hax, Gods will have x+1 layered hax, as justified by Gilgamesh, someone who lived in the Age of Gods. Authorities are miracles, or essentially, Mysteries, based on the definition of Magecraft above with at least 6000 years old, basically Gods' own haxes, but with a fancy name. Outside of offensively, they can be used defensively, like Tiamat using hers to negate Ishtar's Authority. So, like before, if Authority A is stronger than Authority B (which can be any Authority), A will have B's number of layers plus 1.
So what make an Authority stronger? They are measured by a God's Divinity, basically how godly they are, as mentioned here by how you can reduce Quetzalcoatl's Authority by reducing her Divinity.
=> If God A has "more Divinity" than God B, their haxes has 1 more layer.
2. Magical Energy is used to recreate Mystery, basically to make something magical happens. Simply having more magical energy will help you resist something that previously can't be resisted (this example) or piercing something that previously can't be pierced (like this example where Brynhild used rune with more magical energy to bypass Surtr's resistance),
=> Anything that used more magical energy will pierce/resist lesser one with the same effect. So for example, if A has a skill to resist mind manip, B use a skill to manip mind with more magical energy than B can mind manip A, but if C has a skill to resist mind manip and used more magical energy than B's skill, C can resist it. So C's resistance to mind manip is 1 layer more than A. And so on.
=> That means any skill that used infinite magical energy will have infinite layers of hax. Why? Because we can see in the above examples that using a finite more amount of magical energy will increase its layer. We don't know how much but we know it's finite (1). Let's assume we have a skill using x magical energy, we need something with x+y energy to negate that. From (1) we know that x+y is still a finite number, and anything that use infinite amount of energy must be greater than x+y, therefore it will pierce/resist it. With mathematical induction, we can extend this to any number of finite magical energy, therefore skill that used infinite magical energy will have infinite layers.
Now just because someone has infite magical energy doesn't mean they can blow them all up in a finite amount of time for a skill to make it infinite layer, that's why I don't consider Tiamat with her Sea of Life - a pool of infinite magical energy for her to use - to have infinite layer hax because of the lack of evident to show that she has used infinite amount of magical energy to cast skills, as well as any other magecraft/authoriy/magic... users.
But I have 1 candidate: Kama is a god who has the ability to create her own conceptual universe which is infinite in size, as well as the ability to create clone with identical stat to her. And she has created enough clones to fill her whole universe, effectively making its number infinite. Naturally, anything with a supernatural effect required magical energy (pun not intended), and her clones also have a Mana stat like her too. So basically she can and has created infinite clones, each clone required magical energy, not to mentioned they can all used the same skills as her so the amount of magical energy they can deploy in one go is infinite since, well, there are infinite of them. Furthermore, her universe is inside her, effectively make her have infinite magical energy to resist other skills cuz again, simply having more magical energy allows you to resist haxes.
(For more information, her dedicated vsb page can be found here.)
Hope this is more organized and easier to understand.

 

[YungManzi]

Yes, I agree it's a hax that bypass magic power difference only when used on hyumans, but It can't  do the same when it's used on humans.

I'm against layers because every hax in the verse depend on magic power, and can't affect someone with more magic power than the user.

it can't work if the target have more magic power than the user.

the only layer : human>hyuman

an object resisted this by puting mana into it.
mana=resistance to mana

Mana = resistance to magic, in a sense that having a set amount of mana gives you resistance to certain abilities; In the same way having Reiyoku (or whatever the energy is in Bleach kek) gives you resistance to a bunch of abilities even if you have less energy than the person trying to affect you.

You haven’t proved that having more mana automatically makes you resistant to someone’s magic, and I’ve even debunked it.

I’m done with this argument, EL is irritatingly stubborn and hardly budges an inch on a point even when he’s proven wrong on it; instead he just shifts the goal post to another similar position, so people can just decide who they think is correct. I’m not engaging anymore.

 

[EL_xWatcher1234x]

Mana = resistance to magic, in a sense that having a set amount of mana gives you resistance to certain abilities; In the same way having Reiyoku (or whatever the energy is in Bleach kek) gives you resistance to a bunch of abilities even if you have less energy than the person trying to affect you.

That's not how hax layering works.

You haven’t proved that having more mana automatically makes you resistant to someone’s magic, and I’ve even debunked it

Where?
All I see is "trust me I know"

I’m done with this argument, EL is irritatingly stubborn and hardly budges an inch on a point even when he’s proven wrong on it; instead he just shifts the goal post to another similar position, so people can just decide who they think is correct. I’m not engaging anymore.

Please prove me wrong by showing hax working on someone (human) with more mana than the user.

 

[Unqver]

@Rabbit2002 that doesn’t exactly refute the point that being stronger doesn’t automatically mean layered hax, the feats of affecting people with resistances is needed for layered hax.

@EL_xWatcher1234x yeah still not seeing layered hax here.

@YungManzi the petrification stuff at the beginning has some merits with layered hax.

@LIFE_OF_KING Ehh, not sure about it since it just looks like he’s able to resist the mind hax from the therapist and not the therapist just affecting him despite having resistances from the get go.

@Seracle Can you organize the post to be more organized cause I can barely understand most of this post.

In my personal mind, there is a unique worldview, which is a vast world where there are many thoughts and thoughts living. In fact, these thoughts and thoughts are people, gods, ghosts... Perhaps the divine realm we live in is also a world condensed from one's worldview, illusory and free. We need to change all of this, break the illusions, jump out, and return to the real world, This is the essence principle and profound meaning of Daqian Zixin Dharma
There was a huge explosion sound again. The meridians and sea of qi in Xia Guanghan's body all exploded, transforming into an infinite amount of elemental energy. The mother of emptiness was using her supreme means to reconcile the elemental energy of the Wisdom God Pill, and this elemental energy transformed into a vast world one after another on top of their heads. The world was enveloped in the world, circulating and repeating endlessly, creating a concentric and circular world everywhere.——sage monarchChapter 1323
个人心目中，都有一个独特的世界观，也就是一个大千世界，在个世界之中生活着许许多多的心意，实际上，这些心意，心念，也就是人，神，鬼………也许，我们生活的神界，也是一个人的世界观凝结成的世界，虚幻自在，我们要改变这一切，打破虚幻，跳跃出来，回归到达真实的世界之中去，这就是大千自在心法的精髓原理和奥义。”
又是巨大的爆炸声音，夏广寒体内的经脉，气海，全部爆炸，化为了无限多元气，空行母在施展出来自己的无上手段来调和智慧神丹的元气，这元气在两人的头顶上化为了一个个的大千世界，世界之中套着世界，一环扣一环，环环相扣，四处都是同心圆一般的世界。）
What do you think of this?

 

[Unqver]

In my personal mind, there is a unique worldview, which is a vast world where there are many thoughts and thoughts living. In fact, these thoughts and thoughts are people, gods, ghosts... Perhaps the divine realm we live in is also a world condensed from one's worldview, illusory and free. We need to change all of this, break the illusions, jump out, and return to the real world, This is the essence principle and profound meaning of Daqian Zixin Dharma
There was a huge explosion sound again. The meridians and sea of qi in Xia Guanghan's body all exploded, transforming into an infinite amount of elemental energy. The mother of emptiness was using her supreme means to reconcile the elemental energy of the Wisdom God Pill, and this elemental energy transformed into a vast world one after another on top of their heads. The world was enveloped in the world, circulating and repeating endlessly, creating a concentric and circular world everywhere.——sage monarchChapter 1323
个人心目中，都有一个独特的世界观，也就是一个大千世界，在个世界之中生活着许许多多的心意，实际上，这些心意，心念，也就是人，神，鬼………也许，我们生活的神界，也是一个人的世界观凝结成的世界，虚幻自在，我们要改变这一切，打破虚幻，跳跃出来，回归到达真实的世界之中去，这就是大千自在心法的精髓原理和奥义。”
又是巨大的爆炸声音，夏广寒体内的经脉，气海，全部爆炸，化为了无限多元气，空行母在施展出来自己的无上手段来调和智慧神丹的元气，这元气在两人的头顶上化为了一个个的大千世界，世界之中套着世界，一环扣一环，环环相扣，四处都是同心圆一般的世界。）

How's this?

 

[Rabbit2002]

In my personal mind, there is a unique worldview, which is a vast world where there are many thoughts and thoughts living. In fact, these thoughts and thoughts are people, gods, ghosts... Perhaps the divine realm we live in is also a world condensed from one's worldview, illusory and free. We need to change all of this, break the illusions, jump out, and return to the real world, This is the essence principle and profound meaning of Daqian Zixin Dharma
There was a huge explosion sound again. The meridians and sea of qi in Xia Guanghan's body all exploded, transforming into an infinite amount of elemental energy. The mother of emptiness was using her supreme means to reconcile the elemental energy of the Wisdom God Pill, and this elemental energy transformed into a vast world one after another on top of their heads. The world was enveloped in the world, circulating and repeating endlessly, creating a concentric and circular world everywhere.——sage monarchChapter 1323
个人心目中，都有一个独特的世界观，也就是一个大千世界，在个世界之中生活着许许多多的心意，实际上，这些心意，心念，也就是人，神，鬼………也许，我们生活的神界，也是一个人的世界观凝结成的世界，虚幻自在，我们要改变这一切，打破虚幻，跳跃出来，回归到达真实的世界之中去，这就是大千自在心法的精髓原理和奥义。”
又是巨大的爆炸声音，夏广寒体内的经脉，气海，全部爆炸，化为了无限多元气，空行母在施展出来自己的无上手段来调和智慧神丹的元气，这元气在两人的头顶上化为了一个个的大千世界，世界之中套着世界，一环扣一环，环环相扣，四处都是同心圆一般的世界。）
What do you think of this?

irrelevant
This thread is not about tier 1

 

[Unqver]

irrelevant
This thread is not about tier 1

That's my mistake

 

[WHYNAUT]

Oh yeah it’s official. Pretty much same thing like the type 5 acausal thread. Validity of any verse with hax layers is being determined here

Alright, here's the post for Destiny. I probably won't be responding to anything on this thread until tomorrow. Cheers.

Spoiler: Big Destiny Layer post

So first of all, the umbrella-term for supernatural abilities in Destiny is 'paracausal power', of which the two sources are Light and Dark. Secondly, I'd like to note that it's impossible to put an exact number on the amount of layers most characters have. We just know that there's a lot of them for the more powerful characters, due to how paracausal power works. On top of that some abilities can have less layers than others, due to only being attained at a higher level of paracausal power.

---

Sword Logic

Let's start with the Sword Logic, a power of the Darkness that allows its participants to get more powerful through killing. This includes the potency of abilities and resistances, in a way that complies with the standards. For example, Auryx, Savathûn and Xivu Arath were on the brink of being defeated, so Auryx inflicted ‘true deaths’ upon the latter two in order to attain greater Sword Logic. He then set out to kill his patron Worm God, Akka, who can deny a truth until it becomes a lie (subjective reality, reality warping, law manipulation and conceptual manipulation. All abilities that Auryx resisted before this). However, Akka was higher up the totem pole, so he said: “You have not the strength.”, assuming that his denial would secure his victory. But Auryx’s Sword Logic was now more powerful, so he went and killed Akka anyway.

Of course, this is only one instance of two characters having layered abilities. Is there any proof that greater paracausal power comes with more layers at any level? Indeed there is. Let’s continue with the Sword Logic for now.

Dûl Incaru

First of all there’s Dûl Incaru, the final boss of the Shattered Throne dungeon. As a powerful Hive within the Ascendant plane, she’s entirely immune to the Guardian’s attacks and abilities, including power nullification and resistance negation (the same goes for every use of the word ‘immune’ after this point). You have to kill her bodyguards, the Fatesmiths, and take their power to be able to affect her, presumably through the Sword Logic. The Crota’s End and King’s Fall raids set a precedent for this and the lore acknowledges it:

“I was right, at first. In the ever-expanding Blighted-place, even Light must obey the sword-logic. Even you Guardians, you best and brightest of the dying dawn, you drew blood in honor of the Taken King. The Warpriest did his duty, and you did yours. Oryx was challenged, yes, but challenged in the way of the Hive, which is to say that challenge is worship — is challenge — is power. Sword-logic.”

“Precedent also exists for opening the way for Guardians to participate in the Hive sword logic.”

Killing one Fatesmith and claiming its power in the form of the ‘Finite Thought’ buff is enough to actually harm Dûl Incaru, each subsequent kill significantly amplifies one’s ability to do so.

Hive Cleavers

Next let’s take a look at the tool that symbolizes the Hive’s power, the Cleaver. Blades are an excellent tool for channeling the Sword Logic. Even the Cleavers of relatively weak Knights can be used to cut through barriers that make enemies immune to other attacks and abilities from the Guardian. Against some immune enemies, the Cleavers of more powerful Knights are required, such as Accursed Swordbearers. This keeps going and all the way near the top you have the likes of Crota, who can only be harmed with an Ascendant Sword.

Do keep in mind that swords aren’t the only way for Sword Logic to overcome or negate barriers, resistances and invulnerability, it’s simply the easiest example of it.

King’s Fall

Speaking of other ways to get through insurmountable defenses, it’s time for King’s Fall. Starting with the Warpriest, whose Sword Logic makes him immune. The Guardians are forced to continuously kill hordes of enemies to gather enough Sword Logic to affect the Warpriest.
They continue participating in the Sword Logic and killing the most powerful members of Oryx’s court. However, even with all of this power, they still can’t even scratch Oryx.
He stood at the top of the Hive’s power hierarchy after all.

Osiris vs Xivu Arath

Moving on to another member of the Hive triumvirate, Xivu Arath, and one of the most powerful Guardians to exist, Osiris. Before we discuss their confrontation, I’ll give some context for the abilities of Lightbearers and of Xivu Arath. A Lightbearer’s capabilities can vary, depending on a multitude of factors. A pretty important factor however, is their mental state. As for Xivu Arath, as the Hive God of War, she’s empowered by conflict, violence, etc. in general.
So Osiris attempts to fight Xivu Arath, but she immediately overpowers him and nullifies his powers. He then focuses his attention inwards, manages to break through Xivu’s hold and attacks her. This in turn simply empowers her, causing her to suppress Osiris with even greater strength:

“"What is this?" Shock punctuates the question. He pulls against an unseen force to no avail.
YOU BURN OFFERINGS; I ACCEPT THEM.

Xivu Arath's will crushes the pressure of his Light. Seals the flames into his flesh. Stakes his body to the stone on paralytic pins. Her image distorts in a concave canvas around him, the Celebrant at its core. Shadows encroach, dousing the borders of his power.

Osiris focuses his mind on the spark at his core. Flames billow from within. Countless gilded echoes ripple from him, testing Xivu's hold, pressing vulnerabilities. The Sun sings to repel the shadow. He finds a moment, wrenches a hand free, and unleashes the Reach of Chaos. The beam of Arc tears through Xivu's sigil. Soulfire shards rocket away as cracks fork through Xivu Arath's projection.

Unfazed, she does not relent.

RESIST ME, LIGHTBEARER.

Her will overcomes him, stronger than before.”

Gahlran and the Witch’s Blessing

In the Crown of Sorrow raid there’s an effect called ‘Witch’s Blessing’, which makes even weak enemies like Thralls immune. The only way to affect blessed enemies is to get the effect as well. This blessing comes from Savathûn, the middle child of the Hive God triumvirate.
However, the final boss of this raid, Gahlran, is immune even to those with Witch’s Blessing. Because instead of getting a small amount of power from Savathûn, he’s empowered by the Crown of Sorrow, one of her most powerful artifacts.

Morgeth

Morgeth is the penultimate boss in the Last Wish raid. Unlike some of the previous examples, it has no fancy barriers or invulnerability. Despite that, Morgeth is still immune. This is simply because it’s considerably more powerful than the Guardians during that fight. To affect Morgeth, they have to absorb the Taken power that is leaking from it in order to boost their own power.

Rhulk
In the Vow of the Disciple raid, the Guardians encountered their most powerful foe yet, Rhulk. Not only is he immune, he also passively reflects attacks. But even at this level, greater paracausal power can overcome the abilities and resistances of others. The Guardians use Rhulk’s own power in combination with the energy from his superweapon, the Upended, to nullify his defenses.

Lightbearers

Last but not least we will take a look at Guardians and Lightbearer Hive. The average Titan can disintegrate enemies with a Void Light-infused punch. Some enemies, like a normal Hive Knight, would resist this. But the Titan could still disintegrate them with a more powerful ability, like a grenade.

In the same vein, Hive Lightbearers show that with greater power, Lightbearers can become more resilient to various abilities, such as matter manipulation, and even gain resistances, such as to power nullification (for which Osiris already set a precedent in his section). That is because they too come in variations, including various bosses.

---

So I've shown that greater paracausal power can overcome resistances and I've shown numerous examples of this at different levels. There's a clear trend of B>A and F>E, so it would follow that D>C.

EDIT: To further back this up, here the Guardian is able to affect an immune enemy after absorbing paracausal power. Not specifically Sword Logic or Taken power, just paracausal.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

This is layered right?

There are people who resist all status effects but there are statuses which ignore resistances. There are also people who can resist these statuses that ignore resistances.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

There are people who resist all status effects but there are statuses which ignore resistances. There are also people who can resist these statuses that ignore resistances.

Wouldn't that be Resistance to Resistance Negation?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Wouldn't that be Resistance to Resistance Negation?

Is ignoring resistances negating the resistance though?

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

Is ignoring resistances negating the resistance though?

Well to negate means to make ineffective. If something is ignoring your resistances, then your resistances are ineffective.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Well to negate means to make ineffective. If something is ignoring your resistances, then your resistances are ineffective.

But the resistances are still there and are not being removed just bypassed. it's just this particular thing bypasses said resistances instead of removing them. To negate would be to disable the resistances so your thing would work.

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

But the resistances are still there and are not being removed just bypassed.

That would still be Resistance Negation hax-wise. For example, this is from Durability Negation;

Unconventional use of energy attacks may be able to bypass the body's natural defenses.

Sure it's not removing the body's natural defenses, but it is still bypassing them, and that counts as a form of negation.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

That would still be Resistance Negation hax-wise. For example, this is from Durability Negation;

Sure it's not removing the body's natural defenses, but it is still bypassing them, and that counts as a form of negation.

I dunno if this helps but there's also a direct case of this.

[You have been exposed to the evil spirit of the evil dragon. The powerful strength of the Breath has suppressed your body. You won’t be able to move for 5 seconds until the Breath disappears.][Resistance has failed.][The evil dragon’s evil spirit will rot your body from the inside. The ‘poisoned,’ ‘bleeding,’ and ‘internal injuries’ abnormal statuses have occurred.][You have resisted.][The evil dragon’s evil spirit has cursed you. For the next 10 seconds, skills and magic casting speed is reduced by two times while dodge rate and hit rate are reduced by 80% for 5 seconds.][Resistance has failed.]

and here

Spoiler

 

[Theglassman12]

Finally back from exams, so I can catch up with this stuff.

@Rabbit2002 The scan with the chaos resistance stuff helps in terms of resistances, the blog you linked however doesn't help me much in terms of established layered hax so again I'm gonna need a bit more that shows every stair translates to another layer of hax.

@Seracle I can somewhat see the Mysteries and Authorities being treated as some form of layers, however some scans make it a bit vague like the whole "I can't hurt tiamat thing" sounds more AP focused rather than resisting an ability. Furthermore having an infinite supply of mana doesn't mean infinite layers, you'd need to affect an infinite number of folks with established resistances and being capable of focusing that onto a specific target to amplify its magnitude for it to count.

@BestMGQScalerEver That sounds like resistance negation more than layers.

@WHYNAUT Do you have any clips from the fights where it's mentioned or shown that absorbing some sword logic powers or taken powers results in them being able to bypass their resistances when prior they couldn't do anything to said bosses? If so you'd have a pretty strong argument for layered hax there.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't know if this is layers or something. But I think showing it here is much better than asking somewhere, plus it doesn't seem to be very busy around here.

In this episode of Woody Woodpecker, Woody has the ability to put Gabby (alligator) to sleep, but he keeps waking up, and Woody puts him back to sleep.

The episode is almost entirely based on this, and is 5 minutes long, so I'm just going to throw it in here. Let me know if the video doesn't work, for some reason many videos of this cartoon are region blocked.

 

[Theglassman12]

@Phsccarvalho it's not working.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

@Phsccarvalho it's not working.

Does this Facebook one work?

 

[Theglassman12]

It works, though I'm not seeing layered hax here since the crocodile is constantly affected by the song and only wakes up because he hears the magic word, at best it's just Woody doing the song in different forms.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It works, though I'm not seeing layered hax here since the crocodile is constantly affected by the song and only wakes up because he hears the magic word, at best it's just Woody doing the song in different forms.

I mean, the "magic word" is not something that Woody has his ability to do. It only seems to have an impact on the crocodile because it is very hungry.

This has nothing to do with the topic, but would the crocodile have some limited resistance to this ability, since it wakes up when it hears food?

 

[Theglassman12]

probably a limited resistance at best.

 

[WHYNAUT]

@WHYNAUT Do you have any clips from the fights where it's mentioned or shown that absorbing some sword logic powers or taken powers results in them being able to bypass their resistances when prior they couldn't do anything to said bosses? If so you'd have a pretty strong argument for layered hax there.

Certainly. Here Dûl Incaru is shown to be immune and here someone kills all three Fatesmiths, takes their power in the form of the Finite Thought buff, and kills Dûl Incaru. Here Morgeth is shown to be immune and it's shown that the Guardians absorb Taken power (note that you need more than one stack of Taken Strength to damage it). And here it's noted in dialogue that the Guardians used Morgeth's own power to beat it.

 

[Theglassman12]

Then yeah I can see the layered hax for the taken stuff, sword logic via kills I’m a bit unsure of given the lore text doesn’t mention much on “they’re immune to death, but higher sword logic lets them inflict true death” unless I missed a text.

 

[WHYNAUT]

Then yeah I can see the layered hax for the taken stuff, sword logic via kills I’m a bit unsure of given the lore text doesn’t mention much on “they’re immune to death, but higher sword logic lets them inflict true death” unless I missed a text.

Oh, that wasn't what I was getting at. The point is that Auryx gained considerably greater Sword Logic from giving them 'true deaths' and this greater Sword Logic allowed him to resist Akka's layered hax and kill him, which wouldn't have been possible otherwise. The deaths were just a means to an end.

EDIT: And as mentioned in the post, all of the examples point towards greater paracausal power in general giving layers, not just Sword Logic. It's only a specific expression of Darkness after all, not its own thing.

 

[Seracle]

@Seracle I can somewhat see the Mysteries and Authorities being treated as some form of layers, however some scans make it a bit vague like the whole "I can't hurt tiamat thing" sounds more AP focused rather than resisting an ability. Furthermore having an infinite supply of mana doesn't mean infinite layers, you'd need to affect an infinite number of folks with established resistances and being capable of focusing that onto a specific target to amplify its magnitude for it to count.

As for the "I can't hurt Tiamat thing", it's true that the wording might be a bit misleading but when Quetzalcoatl said that even with Ishtar's Authority, or any power left in Mesopotamia they can't scratch Tiamat, we are talking about Authority, which is the ability to do things such as altering events, time manipulation,... and so on, therefore it's definitely not something purely AP-related. We are talking about haxes such as Ereshkigal's powernull through the curse of the Underworld, Merlin's power drain, Kingu's paralysis through the Chain of the Heavens, and Tiamat just shrugged them all off. So it's definitely a kind of resisting an ability.
As for the infinite layer, yeah I think I will leave that one for later when we have more solid cases.
My main goal was to establish a scaling system for nasuverse, so we can have more context to why an older, stronger Mystery, a hax that use more Magical Energy, or an Authority of a higher-divinity god can be considered "layered", both in term of piercing resistance and resisting. Thanks for your opinion.

 

[Theglassman12]

Then yeah I can see some layered hax for authority

 

[deonment]

Oh yeah I should go ahead and do this real quick
Okay for Yu-Gi-Oh (Particularly Duel Terminal) layers
The Sources for these come from The Duel Terminal Master Guide, Master Guide 5
We have the Steelswarm who are carriers of and have the ability to inflict the effects of the Evilswarm virus (Disease Manip, Empath Manip, Mind Manip, Soul Manip, Body Puppetry, Corruption, Possession, and Biological Manip) in addition to being fine with it residing within their bodies

Spoiler: Effects of the Evilswarm

"Evilswarm Pandemic"
The "Evilswarm" even began to infect the three Ice Dragons that were sealed by the "Sacred Spirit" in the past. It wouldn't be long until the day came when they were corrupted enough to start to move.

"Natalia" Dies and "Noellia" Is Corrupted

The failure of the Ritual cost "Noellia" her best friend and contaminated her mind with the thoughts of the "Steelswarm".

"Noellia" Performs Forbidden Magic Using "Steelswarm" Corpses

"Noellia" once again attempted to use the spell that had taken her best friend's life, and succeeded in performing a Ritual using the corpses of the "Steelswarm" - but her body and mind were corrupted into rampaging alongside the "Steelswarm".

Because of the "Steelswarm" crest on the surface of the "Aquamirror" she holds, it can be surmised that she's been completely corrupted by the "Steelswarm" in body and soul.

"Infestation Infection"

The wicked mental entity, "Evilswarm", awoke from the corpse the "Steelswarm". It possessed the bodies of those who had died in the Great Marshlands during the last Great War, and began to use them to attack the living

"Noellia", along with other members of the "Gishki", continued to perform forbidden magic - this time using the corpse of "Hercules" - but those incapable of resisting its intense evil thoughts were instantly corrupted, and this became the form in which "Hercules" revived.

"Steelswarm Hercules" corrupted the conjurers who performed the ritual. In order to achieve a complete resurrection, he began smashing the "Aquamirrors" that could undo the ritual.

The Vylon are machines that were specifically made to resist the effects of the Evilswarm (by people who knew about the Evilswarm no less)

Spoiler: Vylon "resistance" to the Evilswarm

In the ancient past, during the battle between the "Constellar" and the "Steelswarm", the "Vylon" were made as weapons that couldn't be infected by the "Steelswarm".

In order to combat the "Evilswarm"-ification phenomenon that corrupted the weak and troubled with wicked thoughts, the "Constellars" developed autonomous mobile weapons called "Vylon", which could not be corrupted by the "Evilswarm".

During their battle against the "Steelswarm", the "Constellars" developed entities known as "Vylon" whose bodies were meant to be impervious to corruption by the thoughts and feelings of the "Steelswarm". After the "Steelswarm" were sealed, the "Vylon" continued to observe the planet's surface, and they sensed traces of "Steelswarm" activity deep within "Noellia". In order to search for the source, they descended from on high.

The "Vylon", who modified themselves to serve as equipment, equipped themselves to the main forces of each tribe. This increased their fighting power while also serving to protect them from being corrupted by the "Steelswarm".

The Evilswarm still managed to corrupt the Vylon despite this

Spoiler: Evilswarm bypassing Vylon resistance

The Thoughts of the Steelswarm Corrupt the "Vylon"

"Noellia", who was on the side of the "Steelswarm", had feigned her true motivations by siding with the "Vylon" camp, but she'd also desired to corrupt the "Vylon" by assimilating with their hivemind. Her scheme succeeded, and she managed to transmit the thoughts of the "Steelswarm" among the "Vylon".

"Vylon Tetra"

"Noellia" had equipped herself with "Vylon Tetra" by changing into "Tetrogre" through a Ritual, and she'd slowly corrupted him since then. The connected consciousness of the "Vylon" then allowed for every member to be infected.

Characters such as Gem-Knight Pearl and the Constellars can resist the effects of the Evilswarm virus despite being fighting against those who are infected by it

Spoiler: People resisting the Evilswarm

The rapid spread of the corruption of the awakened "Evilswarm" threw the surface world into a period of confusion. It was at this point that the "Constellar", knights of salvation mentioned in myth and lore, descended onto the world. They launched an all-out assault against the "Evilswarm" in order to shatter the continually-growing chain of evil thoughts.

The "Steelswarm" Were the Hosts of the Psychic Organism, "Evilswarm"

The "Steelswarm" were creatures that were compatible with "Evilswarm"-ization and hosting the "Evilswarm" inside their bodies. But did the creatures that became their hosts come from another world, or did they use to be a species that existed on the surface? The truth is unknown.

Higher-grade "Steelswarm"
They were the first to adapt to "Evilswarm"-ification by having the evil thoughts dwell inside their bodies. Alongside their absolute malice, they possessed an incredibly high intellect, and the power to transmit the "Evilswarm" into the corpses and wreckage of their "prey".

There are other examples if you want more

Tldr;
Vylons<Evilswarm Virus<Steelswarm resistances=Constellar Resistances=Other People who can resist the Evilswarm
(Now there may be other things being layered I would be forgetting so I'll just make another post for that if necessary)

 

[WHYNAUT]

@Theglassman12

Oh, that wasn't what I was getting at. The point is that Auryx gained considerably greater Sword Logic from giving them 'true deaths' and this greater Sword Logic allowed him to resist Akka's layered hax and kill him, which wouldn't have been possible otherwise. The deaths were just a means to an end.

EDIT: And as mentioned in the post, all of the examples point towards greater paracausal power in general giving layers, not just Sword Logic. It's only a specific expression of Darkness after all, not its own thing.

To further back this up, here the Guardian is able to affect an immune enemy after absorbing paracausal power. Not specifically Sword Logic or Taken power, just paracausal.

 

[Theglassman12]

@WHYNAUT that helps for layered hax yeah.

@deonment that looks fine by me.

 

[deonment]

@deonment that looks fine by me.

nice

 

[WHYNAUT]

@WHYNAUT that helps for layered hax yeah.

@deonment that looks fine by me.

So is something still missing? And if so, what exactly? Because I feel like I've made a pretty complete argument for greater paracausal power equaling more layers.

 

[Seracle]

@Seracle I can somewhat see the Mysteries and Authorities being treated as some form of layers, however some scans make it a bit vague like the whole "I can't hurt tiamat thing" sounds more AP focused rather than resisting an ability. Furthermore having an infinite supply of mana doesn't mean infinite layers, you'd need to affect an infinite number of folks with established resistances and being capable of focusing that onto a specific target to amplify its magnitude for it to count.

Ok, so after some research I got 2 cases, with 2 specific haxes, that scaled to infi layer for nasuverse.
1. Touko with her paralysis through Mystic Eyes
This one is very straightforward. Two mages, Touko and Alice, used their Mystic Eyes to try to paralyze each other. And due to Alice having more Magical Energy, her eyes are normally stronger than Touko's and therefore resisting Touko's. But Touko had placed mirrors in her Mystic Eyes, so they reflected one another infinitely, effectively multiply the amount of Magical Energy specifically used for this hax to infinite and focus them on one target. This also supported my claim that using infinite amount of Magical Energy means that hax has infinite layers.
2. Kama with her mind hax
So Kama can make others fall in love for her (here is her profile on vsb) and the more she fighted, the more her opponents got more debuffs (yes, the material specifically described this in-game fight). These debuff reduced one's resistance to her debuffs even more, so she can more easily use her hax. And to prove it's not just gameplay, her opponents indeed started losing their mind in the story. She also could and in fact, had created enough clones to fill her whole universe, which is infinite in size, effectively making its number infinite. That further proved that she can, at some point, use infinite Magical Energy in a finite amount of time, because she had created infinite clone, and using finite amount of energy in a finite amount of time couldn't achieve that, and we surely can't have infinite amount of time.