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Hax Layer Evaluation Thread

Theglassman12 said:
One’s Amping someone’s ability to hax others and the other is a physical strength buff
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Both the Emeralds and Rings use Chaos Energy for their abilites, even if it was an Physical Strength feat there, A Chaos Emerald would need equlivent energy to that many Rings, and since they should function the same, they should have a simillar amount of layers
Theglassman12 said:
the fact that the most notable thing about the rings and emeralds is an increase of resilience and physical prowess is telling us that it’s more of a physical strength buff rather than bypassing hax a la any china verse ever, whose cultivation just results in bypassing hax of lower cultivators.
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Just cause it's one of the notable abilites doesnt mean it's always used, even it was, i adressed above
Also
Brogeefrong said:
During The Great Harmony, a crap load of Chaos Emeralds were gathered in the Zone of Silence, and shaped by Feist into the current 7
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?
 
Using chaos energy doesn't change the fact that the thing that's being amped is specifically their stats and not hax potency. You can repeat the same points over and over again but the scans doesn't back up your claims that it would increase hax potency, and instead just increase one's physical stats.

The great harmony stuff tells me nothing about layers in the first place, so yeah not really much to say.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The great harmony stuff tells me nothing about layers in the first place, so yeah not really much to say.
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Thousands Emerald’s through out the galaxy were brought together and shaped into 7, The Chaos Emeralds should still function like the Rings, More Emeralds can bypass the resistances of less
 
You got any scans that mentions that being the case for these emeralds? For these extraordinary claims you're gonna need extraordinary evidences.
 
them having the powers of the rings is not my point, my point is that nothing you've provided for the emeralds stuff has anything to do with hax layers, only AP, if you can't provide the evidence that the hax is getting stronger with the more emeralds to the point of bypassing resistances that they previously couldn't overcome, then your only option is to count any and all instances of power rings bypassing layers of resistances.
 
Theglassman12 said:
them having the powers of the rings is not my point, my point is that nothing you've provided for the emeralds stuff has anything to do with hax layers, only AP, if you can't provide the evidence that the hax is getting stronger with the more emeralds to the point of bypassing resistances that they previously couldn't overcome, then your only option is to count any and all instances of power rings bypassing layers of resistances.
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It's the case for the Power Rings, shouldnt it function the same for Emeralds
 
Your scans suggest otherwise when it's mentioning physical strength and not hax/abilities, if you're gonna repeat the same points over and over then I'm not seeing any need to continue the conversation. I've said my piece on the matter.
 
And the other scans do not show hax being amped, only physical stats, so like I said earlier, get some actual showcase of layers of bypassing resistances instead of using the emeralds since it's not helping on the layered hax case.
 
I got a question. In a novel I'm reading, there exists a Will pressure. When used normally, ie passively, it can inflict other people with fear.

I assume that's baseline. However, the character who can do that can also reduce the range and increase the intensity. There was an opponent who was not affected by the normal aura, but when the mc increased the intensity, they were affected and were unable to do anything due to fear. This should be one layer above baseline, no?

The problem is, said pressure, when reducing its range, was stated to be two times stronger than normal passive. Would this be enough to assume that any 2 times multiplier increase to the Will Pressure will equate a layer?

Ps. I will add scans later with a new post obviously, but I wanted to confirm if that's the case in order to actually bother and get the scans on my laptop.
 
@Rikimarox2 if that 2 times pressure was used to bypass the resistance earlier then you could make the argument that it can equate to a layer, if it doesn’t then we have to go off of actual feats since we’d go into assumption territory there.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@Rikimarox2 if that 2 times pressure was used to bypass the resistance earlier then you could make the argument that it can equate to a layer, if it doesn’t then we have to go off of actual feats since we’d go into assumption territory there.
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This whole proof is for a novel that is not yet indexed. The name of the novel is Lightning is the only way, and it can be added on the OP if it qualifies or not.

Anyways, to start, Gravis (The MC) can release his Will in a 360 direction, and can compress it as well. (Chapter 51). This is further supported when he released his Will Aura in order to demonstrate to the Guild Masters its usage/used for a challenge, and shown to have a radius of 30 meters. (Chapter 56). In his fight inside the wilderness, he activated his Will Aura (Most likely 360 degrees) to lure out a spider.

He was constantly fighting other beasts and they were not frozen, and his will aura was unleashed since he was still in the forest (This is further proven by stating that him releasing his Will Aura is his actual normal state, and does not take any energy. This is chapter 58 btw), and then stated to be able to freeze a scorpion that was about to him despite being already in his Will Aura range by concentrating the will aura on the scorpion, freezing it on the spot (Chapter 64).

However, it appears I was mistaken, because it was not mentioned that it was a 2 times increase in this chapter, we just know that it increases in effectiveness. However, in chapter 81 where he is much stronger, it was stated that he can now compress his Will Aura to a 90 degree cone, increasing its strength by 4 times, and stated that it would be too much for the guy sitting next to him (Who can withstand the normal will aura he was releasing that could freeze and even make other people unconscious).

Not sure if these are enough, but there is another thing that was weird. In chapter 105, it was stated that the level/realm of a cultivator did not increase their will power (Since Will Power can only be increased in certain situations like a lot of Life or Death battles), but it can decrease the enemy's resistance. It was also stated that cultivators at the same level as him would have some resistance, while those below his level had no resistance at all, and that those at his level would be unconscious (Keep in mind that Gravis' will aura is far stronger than other people at this point). It was also stated that with every level increase, the level of resistance would double. Would this be considered resistance negation and would it be layered?

Not sure if these are enough to consider every 4 times increase, increases the layering, or whether the whole cultivator thing would have layered resistances and resistance negation. If they are not enough, I can try to find other feats.

Edit: More proof for Cultivator's bypassing/negating resistance is shown in chapter 164. Gravis used his Will Aura on bunch of disciples and they were frozen solid, but one guy managed to awaken his own will aura and fled. Gravis then proceeded to level up from a level 7 to a level 8, and all the disciples who were frozen instead became unconscious, and the guy who was running, froze. Skye (Gravis' companion/pet) was also stated to not be able to resist the new Will Aura of Gravis, despite previously being able to resist it.
 
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Rikimarox2 said:
This whole proof is for a novel that is not yet indexed. The name of the novel is Lightning is the only way, and it can be added on the OP if it qualifies or not.

Anyways, to start, Gravis (The MC) can release his Will in a 360 direction, and can compress it as well. (Chapter 51). This is further supported when he released his Will Aura in order to demonstrate to the Guild Masters its usage/used for a challenge, and shown to have a radius of 30 meters. (Chapter 56). In his fight inside the wilderness, he activated his Will Aura (Most likely 360 degrees) to lure out a spider.

He was constantly fighting other beasts and they were not frozen, and his will aura was unleashed since he was still in the forest (This is further proven by stating that him releasing his Will Aura is his actual normal state, and does not take any energy. This is chapter 58 btw), and then stated to be able to freeze a scorpion that was about to him despite being already in his Will Aura range by concentrating the will aura on the scorpion, freezing it on the spot (Chapter 64).

However, it appears I was mistaken, because it was not mentioned that it was a 2 times increase in this chapter, we just know that it increases in effectiveness. However, in chapter 81 where he is much stronger, it was stated that he can now compress his Will Aura to a 90 degree cone, increasing its strength by 4 times, and stated that it would be too much for the guy sitting next to him (Who can withstand the normal will aura he was releasing that could freeze and even make other people unconscious).

Not sure if these are enough, but there is another thing that was weird. In chapter 105, it was stated that the level/realm of a cultivator did not increase their will power (Since Will Power can only be increased in certain situations like a lot of Life or Death battles), but it can decrease the enemy's resistance. It was also stated that cultivators at the same level as him would have some resistance, while those below his level had no resistance at all, and that those at his level would be unconscious (Keep in mind that Gravis' will aura is far stronger than other people at this point). It was also stated that with every level increase, the level of resistance would double. Would this be considered resistance negation and would it be layered?

Not sure if these are enough to consider every 4 times increase, increases the layering, or whether the whole cultivator thing would have layered resistances and resistance negation. If they are not enough, I can try to find other feats.
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There is also more, like how he either couldn't compress his will aura further due to how "strong" it was, or it got so strong that he could no longer compress it while it retained its previous potency which I think could help in determining layers and stuff
 
deonment said:
There is also more, like how he either couldn't compress his will aura further due to how "strong" it was, or it got so strong that he could no longer compress it while it retained its previous potency which I think could help in determining layers and stuff
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That's true. In chapter 153, Gravis' Will got upgraded, and he couldn't compress (for now) due to how strong it has become. He also stated that when compressing his Will Aura on a single person back then, its power would increase by several dozen fold. And it was stated that his new aura, in its 300 meter radius and uncompressed, was stronger than his compressed version.
 
Theglassman12 said:
@RoTt35 seems like 4 layers at best looking at the scaling. The telepathy amp and Jean getting stronger would need to be backed up by bypassing resistances she previously couldn't overpower.
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The layer would be for Professor X while having his telepathy heightened by Phoenix Jean to an unimaginable extent, as normally he is far below Jean's potency/resistance (Professor X Mind Hax/Resistance < Jason Stryker Mind Hax/Resistance < Storm Resistance < Cerebro < Magneto's Helmet Resistance < Base Jean Grey Resistance), but with the amp he was able to, initially, have an even mind battle with Phoenix Jean while overcoming her psychic defenses, but ultimately he was unable to stop her in any way as her power gets stronger and stronger

In summary, I think that the mind hax of an amped Professor X could be a layer above Base Jean's resistance since he is able to access the mind and briefly have an even battle with Phoenix Jean (when before he couldn't even read or access the mind of her base self), who is far more powerful than her base self since she broke the psychic barriers that suppressed her power. Something like this:
  • A suppressed Jean Grey can read and manipulate Wolverine's mind, who is unaffected by Silverfox's mind hax [1 Layer]
  • Professor X can access Jean's mind and suppress her mind powers [2 Layers]
  • Jason Stryker can access Professor X's mind and create illusions [3 Layers]
  • Professor X with Cerebro can harm, and eventually kill, Storm's mind, who is unaffected by Jason Stryker's mind hax [4 Layers]
  • Phoenix Jean Grey heightened Professor X's mind Hax, being able to briefly have an even mind battle with her, who is far more powerful than her base self, whose resistance is superior than that of Magneto's helmet which can block the psychic wave from Cerebro [5 Layers]
 
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the powers getting stronger and stronger and the whole "unimaginable extent" stuff needs to be supported with being able to overcome resistances that previously couldn't be beaten, without them it doesn't help with the layers stuff
 
Theglassman12 said:
the powers getting stronger and stronger and the whole "unimaginable extent" stuff needs to be supported with being able to overcome resistances that previously couldn't be beaten, without them it doesn't help with the layers stuff
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Yeah, amped Professor X was able to access Phoenix Jean's mind and had a mind battle with her when he couldn't even access Base Jean's mind before
 
Rikimarox2 said:
Snip
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Kind of close to making the profile (At least for Lower Elemental World), so I want to know if this is fine? If each cultivation layer gives a layer, then they'll have around 25-30 layers for Unity Realm (The Realms are: Body Tempering (5 levels), Energy Gathering Realm (10 layers), Spirit Forming Realm (5 layers, to potentially 10 layers since each level is quadruple the energy compared to energy gathering where they double only), Unity Realm (5 layers)).

Of course, that's assuming each level is a layer, but considering the scans above, I believe that is the case.
 
I would like an evaluation on whether unquantifiable/infinite layers is possible in this case.

Status in Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint is a kind of representation of the level of existence of a being and the power of its stories. During a confrontation between two opponents, the difference in Status will not be played on the physical abilities that can be increased but on the HAX. Indeed, skills and abilities working with Status will be ineffective against an opponent with a comparable or higher Status and vice versa.


 
Theglassman12 said:
them having the powers of the rings is not my point, my point is that nothing you've provided for the emeralds stuff has anything to do with hax layers, only AP, if you can't provide the evidence that the hax is getting stronger with the more emeralds to the point of bypassing resistances that they previously couldn't overcome, then your only option is to count any and all instances of power rings bypassing layers of resistances.
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TLDR: layers for the rings and one emerald is ok, but emeralds layering over each other is not?
 
Figured I'd join on in for an evaluation test for layers.

So, Lupin III was accepted for 1 layer of mental and social resistance due to being able to break out of tomoe's control which she specifically needed to bypass Lupin's defenses in order to do.

I feel like that is pretty straight forward however there is admittedly a possibility of more layers that I want to fact check because, according to Tomoe, Lupin has a resistance to this for every single language he knows. That totals to 9 different resistances that Tomoe had to bypass in order to effect lupin, technically 18 since she not only needed to bypass language but needed 9 different women who were directly designed by Tomoe to fit Lupin's preferences in order to captivate his mind further. The story more or less outright shows that if Tomoe didn't bypass each one of these defenses, Lupin would've simply been unaffected (which he wasn't until the final girl said the final word to the puzzle)

For frame of reference of how easy it is for Tomoe normally, 1:14 shows her casually manipulating the mind of a maid into a believing she is Tomoe and getting her killed in Tomoe's place, a complete memory, personality, and mind rewrite
 
Rikimarox2 said:
That's true. In chapter 153, Gravis' Will got upgraded, and he couldn't compress (for now) due to how strong it has become. He also stated that when compressing his Will Aura on a single person back then, its power would increase by several dozen fold. And it was stated that his new aura, in its 300 meter radius and uncompressed, was stronger than his compressed version.
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Kind of finished with a profile, so is there any progress on whether this is enough? Additionally, this layering should kind of apply to the majority of the abilities in the verse, since a lot of abilities use Will-Aura as a medium, and it was shown that opponents weaker than the character will have their attacks kind of be meaningless due to the higher cultivation, and higher cultivation increases Body, Spirit, and Energy by quadruple:
"As soon as you reach the Unity Realm, your body, Spirit, and Magic all get quadrupled." ~Chapter 331
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And it was shown that having more Magic (Energy) allows one to devour the spirit of the other (As long as they used a soul attack):
"Yet, I, by gathering my power, have a Spirit that is six times stronger than you right now. My Spirit has six times the amount of Magic than yours in here. My Spirit and will can overpower your weak Spirit. Magic clashes against Magic, and with more Magic, I can simply devour your Spirit. You just don’t have enough Magic to overpower me." ~Chapter 331
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Energy, in this case, is a fundamental aspect of reality, as quite literally everything is made of it. Matter, Body, Soul, Mind, Laws (Which can be argued to be concepts), Time and Space, Life, etc... :
'I have never felt this force before! It's different than everything I have ever seen!' Gravis thought with shock.
'All the Laws I know have one thing in common.'
'They all work with Energy or by using things created with Energy, like my Will-Aura.'
'Yet…'
'There is no Energy in this force!'
'The very fundamentals are different!'
This was the greatest difference between this force and all the others.
The highest Heaven's Cosmos was built with Energy.
Everything was built with Energy.
Matter was built with Energy.
Souls were built with Energy.
Gravity was built with Energy.
Time was built with Energy.
Space was built with Energy.
Even the very Laws themselves were built with Energy.
Even Gravis' Void Lightning was just a different form of Energy.
Yet, this force had nothing to do with Energy.
Click to expand...
Oh and, Will-Aura works by suppressing the Spirit, Being, and Mind of the opponent:
The Will-Aura slowed the enemy by suppressing their Spirit, being, and mind. ~Chapter 833
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Is this enough to consider that layering does exist in the world, and it applies to a ton of abilities that use energy or use Will-Aura?
 
Digital_Franz said:
I would like an evaluation on whether unquantifiable/infinite layers is possible in this case.

Status in Omniscient Reader's Viewpoint is a kind of representation of the level of existence of a being and the power of its stories. During a confrontation between two opponents, the difference in Status will not be played on the physical abilities that can be increased but on the HAX. Indeed, skills and abilities working with Status will be ineffective against an opponent with a comparable or higher Status and vice versa.


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Bump
 
Minaaaa said:
this is for a verse im currently making but its not on the wiki yet

This should give Ultimate Madan Warriors 1 layer of soul manipulation
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It seems more like GrenGhost was boasting and being overconfident.

I loved Ryukendo growing up btw
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
It seems more like GrenGhost was boasting and being overconfident.

I loved Ryukendo growing up btw
Click to expand...
Shouldve added more context but this should help. Before he says it, Ultimate Ryukendo uses his finisher on his Larvae form. destroying it but leaving his soul unaffected
 
Minaaaa said:
Shouldve added more context but this should help. Before he says it, Ultimate Ryukendo uses his finisher on his Larvae form. destroying it but leaving his soul unaffected
Click to expand...

What you need to show is Ryukendo interacting with souls with his attacks beforehand

Otherwise, it would be an issue of interaction and not overpowering resistance
 
Proposal for 1 layer of Biological posession

Baseline resistance:
It is stated that the Yozakuras can overcome brainwashing,[74] such as the Sakuranbo Parasites that can hijack the bodies of ordinary spies[75]

1 Layer of Posession
Asa’s posession is able to take over Taiyo Yozakura’s body. Asa’s posession is regarded as impossible to resist by the entire Yozakura family as well.

Proposal for 1 Layer of Mind Manipulation

Baseline resistance
Spies such as the Yozakuras train to resist standard variety hypnosis.[41] It is noted Characters like Shinzo and Futaba have resistances that need to be broken through if you want to mind control them.[73]

1 Layer of Mind Manipulation
This guys brainwashing controls both Shinzo and Futaba

1 Layer of Mind Manipulation resistance
Those who have Tsubomi’s Blood in their bodies can resist this same mind control
 
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Quick power null +1 layer proposal for TenSura's Suspended World; I noticed we didn't have this even tho it was relatively simple

3 Layers: Yuuki's 3 Layered Power Null that is already accepted
3 Layer Resistance: Rimuru's Resistance which is also already accepted
4 Layers: Suspended World's Power Nullification effected Rimuru as well.
We can’t win like that! That’s a foul! It may be acceptable in manga or anime, but in real life, that’s just shocking.‘ Those who cannot reach the ‘suspended world’ are no match for those who can, no matter how strong they are.’—It seems that I was right in recognizing that. In fact, there was nothing I could do. ~ Volume 19 Chapter 4
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Astral_Trinity439 said:
Quick power null +1 layer proposal for TenSura's Suspended World; I noticed we didn't have this even tho it was relatively simple

3 Layers: Yuuki's 3 Layered Power Null that is already accepted
3 Layer Resistance: Rimuru's Resistance which is also already accepted
4 Layers: Suspended World's Power Nullification effected Rimuru as well.
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This has already been rejected by Glassman before. Suspended Worlds' powernull works on a completely different mechanism tied to stopping time and cannot be layered.
 
Been a while since I checked this thread out, I'll get as much out of the way as I can.

@Eseseso The layered hax for the rings is ok, the emeralds stuff I'm not ok with given the description is talking about stat increase and nothing to imply the abilities/hax potencies are increased.

@Jackof_noTrades068 looks ok.

@Wikisource that's one layer, not two. Gifts are where the Baseline resistances starts going off that description alone.

@Minaaaa Yeah that looks like some boasting and not actual layered scaling.

@Rikimarox2 The will condensing looks pretty straightforward and explicit, though it seems to be off the notion that 360 degrees is the baseline given how a 90 degree focus makes it 4 times stronger, so it looks good to me.

@Detective_Blizzard that doesn't really sound like 9 layers to bypass, just moreso he's shrugging off different aspects of the same kind of control. It would need to bypass someone's resistance and said resistances growing stronger 8 times each.

@Digital_Franz Idk how you got unquantifiable or infinite layers from these scans because they're not telling me anything on how it reaches that level.
 
Theglassman12 said:
The layered hax for the rings is ok, the emeralds stuff I'm not ok with given the description is talking about stat increase and nothing to imply the abilities/hax potencies are increased
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Maybe a possible rating, due to the somewhat ambious relationship of rings and emeralds?
 
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