Guilty Gear CRT

[HammerStrikes219]

I removed it here as well:

Error | VS Battles Wiki | Fandom

vsbattles.fandom.com

Hold on. You misunderstood what Mad Dog is saying.

 

[Antvasima]

??? We didn’t have to necessarily do that just to appeal to a minority as it sounds like something akin to preferences with semantics

Well, we try to avoid controversy as much as possible, so we can work more seamlessly in collaboration without recurrent hostility due to hurt feelings.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Well, it seems like some transgendered people consider it acceptable whereas others do not then, so it seems safest to not include it in order to try to please as many of them as possible.

I have removed the offensive information from the Bridget and Yamato pages. Are they acceptable now?

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Bridget_(Guilty_Gear)

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Yamato_(One_Piece)

This is definitely the preferable option, yes. It seems as though the majority of this thread had people agreeing with the notion of just listing their gender and nothing else, so I think this will appease the majority of people here.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Well, we try to avoid controversy as much as possible, so we can work more seamlessly without recurrent hostility due to hurt feelings.

The problem is Fuji is saying it isn’t a inherently offensive thing for what is being stated in the profile. Also technically speaking I am pretty sure the guidelines still applies to all fandom pages

 

[Antvasima]

This is definitely the preferable option, yes. It seems as though the majority of this thread had people agreeing with the notion of just listing their gender and nothing else, so I think this will appease the majority of people here.

Okay then. I have informed our Fandom wiki representative about this. He has yet to respond though.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

The idea is that being trans is something you are born with. Internally a girl with a male body or vice versa. It's not a switch, you were always that gender you just didn't present that way before

Female, formerly male just has really bad implications

I am just point out something. Trans gender technically don’t correlate with biological sex… There is even evidence of this in the past so it is not something you inherently born with necessarily.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, if we are going to be even stricter than Fandom about how to handle pages featuring transgender characters, we will preferably need a new Editing Rules addition.

Anyway, about this...

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

The problem is Fuji is saying it isn’t a inherently offensive thing for what is being stated in the profile. Also technically speaking I am pretty sure the guidelines still applies to all fandom pages

Ant was aware of that. See here:

Well, it seems like some transgendered people consider it acceptable whereas others do not then, so it seems safest to not include it in order to try to please as many of them as possible.

He is merely trying to use the most broadly accessible terms to please as many people as possible. Nobody will be offended if we merely list trans characters as their gender, but a small handful of people may be upset at the use of AMAB/AFAB.

Anyways, would it be a good idea to start a thread dedicated to editing the listed gender of trans characters where necessary?

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Ant was aware of that. See here:

He is merely trying to use the most broadly accessible terms to please as many people as possible. Nobody will be offended if we merely list trans characters as their gender, but a small handful of people may be upset at the use of AMAB/AFAB.

Anyways, would it be a good idea to start a thread dedicated to editing the listed gender of trans characters where necessary?

Actually I will prefer if what exactly are the ppl’s actual stances about this as by definition and according to Wikipedia.

Transgender - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

“Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from the sex that they were assigned at birth.”

 

[Antvasima]

I am just point out something. Trans is technically technically to the fact there is surgeries that let you change sex… There is even evidence of this in the past so it is not something you inherently born with necessarily.

HammerStrikes219, I am aware of that you have a history of serious mental illness, so you do not understand social or cultural contexts very well, but this is considered an extremely sensitive and explosive topic in society currently, so to avoid getting in trouble, it seems safest if you try to not accidentally cause any problems for yourself or others here.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

HammerStrikes219, I am aware of that you have a history of serious mental illness, so you do not understand social or cultural contexts very well, but this is considered an extremely sensitive and explosive topic in society currently, so to avoid getting in trouble, it seems safest if you try to not accidentally cause any problems for yourself or others here.

I understand. But right now, there seems to being some confusion here as what exactly are staff members and regular members’s stance on this as it is kinda annoying to sort out these comments.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

I am just point out something. Trans is technically technically to the fact there is surgeries that let you change sex and other factors … There is even evidence of this in the past so it is not something you inherently born with necessarily.

Surgery has 0 relation to being transgender. Even ignoring those who choose not to undergo surgery, many trans people lack the funds or legal safety in order to undergo surgery. What you are saying here can essentially be boiled down to "poor people and those living in countries with transphobic laws cannot be transgender". Furthermore, there are still many ways to transition without surgery, such as hormone replacement therapy, voice training, or even things as simple as a change in self-presentation and pronouns.

I'll assume that this post comes from a place of ignorance, but please do not say something similar to this again.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, it seems like some transgendered people consider it acceptable whereas others do not then, so it seems safest to not include it in order to try to please as many of them as possible.

Our pages should be based on accuracy; not pleasing as many people as possible.

I hope people aren't suggesting that we be even stricter than Fandom when it comes to this.

Yamato's page was already matching their guidelines.

 

[MrKerf]

Can we just wait for fandom's answer? We can work things out from there.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Surgery has 0 relation to being transgender. Even ignoring those who choose not to undergo surgery, many trans people lack the funds or legal safety in order to undergo surgery. What you are saying here can essentially be boiled down to "poor people and those living in countries with transphobic laws cannot be transgender".

What? I not saying that at all. The point is anyone can been a transgender as well.
Should just make that clear and phrase it better.

 

[Mad_Dog_of_Fujiwara]

Our pages should be based on accuracy; not pleasing as many people as possible.

I hope people aren't suggesting that we be even stricter than Fandom when it comes to this.

Yamato's page was already matching their guidelines.

As someone pointed out earlier, we can and do alter certain parts of character profiles for the sake of being tactful in regards to certain topics. This is one of those cases, I believe.

 

[Damage3245]

Can we just wait for fandom's answer? We can work things out from there.

If we're going to wait, I think that the page should be reverted back to what it was before until we have an official answer.

 

[Antvasima]

Can we just wait for fandom's answer? We can work things out from there.

That seems best, yes.

 

[Damage3245]

As someone pointed out earlier, we can and do alter certain parts of character profiles for the sake of being tactful in regards to certain topics. This is one of those cases, I believe.

I'm fine with being tactful. I was the one who edited Yamato's page in the first place to be compliant with Fandom's guidelines. What is being done right now is too strict and information is being removed unnecessarily.

 

[Antvasima]

If we're going to wait, I think that the page should be reverted back to what it was before until we have an official answer.

Let's wait with that please. It might be labelled transphobic if we do so, and I have no interest in seeing our community quickly decimated by Fandom, which is a part of Silicon Valley, especially as it isn't a big issue if a few of our pages are affected in this manner.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I'm fine with being tactful. I was the one who edited Yamato's page in the first place to be compliant with Fandom's guidelines. What is being done right now is too strict and information is being removed unnecessarily.

Yeah, I agree with this as this is being too overly strict about one’s own gender.

Anyway, I will remain neutral overall given this topic give me a headache.

 

[Damage3245]

Let's wait please. It might be labelled transphobic if we do so, and I have no interest in seeing our community quickly decimated by Fandom, which is a part of Silicon Valley, especially as it isn't a big issue if a few of our pages are affected in this manner.

I can assure you, it will not be labelled as transphobic. It's Fandom's own guidelines. They'd have to ban themselves.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I can assure you, it will not be labelled as transphobic. It's Fandom's own guidelines. They'd have to ban themselves.

https://community.fandom.com/wiki/Gender_Identity_Guidelines#General_Style_Guide

Damage is correct in this regard

 

[Antvasima]

I can assure you, it will not be labelled as transphobic. It's Fandom's own guidelines. They'd have to ban themselves.

Okay. I suppose that you can probably undo the most recent changes that I made to the three pages in question that I linked to above then.

We will reinstate them if Fandom decides otherwise though.

 

[Jasonsith]

If we're going to wait, I think that the page should be reverted back to what it was before until we have an official answer.

I agree, and by this I mean recover the profiles back to this timestamp (Revision as of 21:12, 12 August 2022 according to VBW clock) as this is before Ant sent a request for the Fandom staff to evaluate.

Okay. I suppose that you can probably undo the most changes that I made to the three pages in question that I linked to above then.

We will reinstate them if Fandom decides otherwise though.

I have listed those latest revision before Ant sent a request:

Revision as of 21:12, 12 August 2022

Bridget (Guilty Gear)

Bridget was born in a village in England where the birth of twins of the same gender was considered bad luck, and one twin was traditionally sacrificed or exiled in that case. Her parents were unwilling to lose one of their children, and instead they decided to raise her as a girl so that they...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Yamato (One Piece)

Yamato is the child of Kaidou, one of the Four Emperors of the Sea. Groomed from a young age to be his heir, Yamato instead developed a profound admiration for the samurai Kozuki Oden. After his death, Yamato chose to become Oden, and adopted his mannerisms. This path has put Yamato at odds with...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

However, I do think that you are taking a very unnecessary risk here.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I suppose that you can probably undo the most recent changes that I made to the three pages in question that I linked to above then.

We will reinstate them if Fandom decides otherwise though.

I updated my post above.

 

[Jasonsith]

However, I do think that you are taking a very unnecessary risk here.

The real risk is when we are asking them the Fandom Central staff to evaluate on the appropriateness of certain character's presentation format, then change the presentation format mid-progress. This is like destroying evidence in a court trial and persuade the judge to make a judgement in favour of a certain side.

Post in thread 'Guilty Gear CRT' https://vsbattles.com/threads/guilty-gear-crt.140430/post-4993352

I have listed where we stopped at the last moment before Ant sent a request to the Fandom Central staff.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

I am just point out something. Trans gender technically don’t correlate with biological sex… There is even evidence of this in the past so it is not something you inherently born with necessarily.

Also corrected this comment of my own as it was a mistake on my part. Anyway, time to wait then

 

[Andytrenom]

The guildeline is to replace the terms biological male/biological female with amab/afab, not to add that detail whenever listing gender

But whatever, I will for Fandom to answer. This will just keep going in circles otherwise

 

[Jasonsith]

We shall wait for the Fandom staff.

 

[The_Impress]

Our pages should be based on accuracy; not pleasing as many people as possible.

Aren't you the person that literally has a screenshot posted around Discord equivalent to "we can literally ignore valid feats as long as it pleases 3 staff members"?

Don't act like people jump on the wiki to check if the ******* gender tag is 100% detailed and """" accurate""", which FYI it wouldn't even BE accurate since our pages list GENDER, they have never listed a person's sex.

We're stricter than FANDOM on a billion things, like page creation and edits, with many page exclusions being completely subjective too mind you, so no your framing like this is something wiki just is crossing is false, we've done this for literal years, we're not CSaP

So yeah point's meme-wrong.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Impress; I suspect that screenshot is taken out of context. Didn't we ignore Master Roshi's feat of destroying the Moon for years because we deemed it to be an outlier? That's probably the kind of thing I was referring to.

The rest of your post doesn't concern me. Us being stricter than Fandom on other concepts like page creation and editing through CRT's doesn't mean we have to be stricter than Fandom in other aspects.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the Fandom staff is usually off-duty during weekends, so we will likely have to wait until tomorrow for a response.

 

[Damage3245]

Well, the Fandom staff is usually off-duty during weekends, so we will likely have to wait until tomorrow for a response.

I suggest we close the thread for now until then.

 

[Jasonsith]

I suggest we close the thread for now until then.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/guilty-gear-crt.140430/post-4993352

Once the profiles have been reverted to before Ant sent the requests to the Fandom staff we can certainly close this thread for a while until the Fandom staff make an official feedback.

 

[Damage3245]

Okay. Reverted the profiles and closing the thread temporarily.

 

[The_Impress]

The rest of your post doesn't concern me. Us being stricter than Fandom on other concepts like page creation and editing through CRT's doesn't mean we have to be stricter than Fandom in other aspects.

Why because you happen to agree on those certain aspects since it matches your vision? What about my vision, Damage? There is no "us" or "we" here, if you're arguing against sensibilities of others in a trivial a field as gender and acting like irrelevant accuracy there is crucial over basic respectfulness, you'd better make sure you have actually voiced opinions in your support so people actually know which person is being this ridiculous publicly.

Who the **** IS REQUIRED TO BE INFORMED what GENITALS a fictional character has? Fetishists? Transphobes knowing which verse to label woke? Unless you're discussing the five possible matches that'll ever happen it's trivial as shit for you to list it, it ISN'T ACCURATE because nobody wants to know what her insides has, and you look like an exclusionist labelling ******** if you list her like this when NO CISGENDER CHARACTER ACROSS THE ENTIRE WIKI is listed this way. This is blatant double standard you're deeming as aCcUrAtE when you haven't ever demanded this accuracy for the bajillion other wacky gender listings across the wiki.

And I am genuinely angered that Damage is currently addressing me, he decides to nonsensically go "Oh you're wrong and I don't have to expand why" and asks Ant to close the thread, and he does. Makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Damage3245]

@The_Impress; I didn't say anything about us having to list what genitals a character has, stop blowing this ridiculously out of proportion and calm down.

 

[The_Impress]

@The_Impress; I didn't say anything about us having to list what genitals a character has,

Then why are you insistent on the character's biological sex to be listed?

stop blowing this ridiculously out of proportion and calm down.

Stop nulling multiple pages addressing why it's insensitive to label a character this way and instead hyperfocusing on your nonsensical version of accuracy.

You're being disrespectful.