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GT doesn't follow the anime

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Also, just saying, since Dark649 has accepted that we should alter the powerscaling, but not the 4-A rating (which i'm inclined to agree with), but the "Super Boo was going to one-shot Goku, so what came before the statement contradicts it" argument is flawed.

If we were to go by that logic, we should ignore Goku's power level of 416 and Piccolo's power level of 408 in the Beginning of Z, because they contradict Old King Piccolo stating he used less than half of his power against Goku on their first fight, and Goku becoming "many, many" times stronger after training with Korin in the Tao-Pai Pai Arc. If Goku had the same power level as Master Roshi back then, becoming many, many times stronger would make him AT LEAST three times as strong as he was. That would make Goku in the Korin Saga stronger than he was in the Beginning of Z, which makes no sense.

We don't do that, because Toriyama simply didn't care and pulled some power levels out of nowhere to get on with the manga, retconning the Korin and King Piccolo arcs in the process.

Similarly, Toei wanted to make Kid Boo and Goku the strongest, so they ignored everything and made the characters say Kid Boo was stronger.
 
Goku getting weaker doesn't ring a bell on me; having less stamina on the other hand totally.

Base Goku was already stronger than Base Rildo who iirc he was stated to be stronger than Kid Buu...so yeah getting weaker doesn't seem the case.
 
Toei scaling has always been inconsistent and wacky. Feats and statements always contradict each other.
 
Yeah, I don't think it was ever confirmed about GT Goku being weaker, more so that he had less control over his power. But SSJ4 nullifies that weakness.
 
Akreious said:
No offence kepekley, but you seem really desperate to downgrade the GT cast....
Click to expand...
Considering the fact that I actually enjoy watching GT, I'd appreciate fewer accusations, if you dont't mind.
 
GT is the direct continuation of the Toei Anime, carrying I've many anime only Elements such as Gogeta, Pikkon, the anime depiction of Hell, and the Tuffles.

Even movies are referenced.

First Arc Base Kid Goku matched General Rildo. Who is much stronger than Kid Buu. Who has a 4-A feat.

Also, Kid Buu is not stronger even in the anime. Those are mistranslations. Kid Buu is the most dangerous and fearsome form of Buu because he is pure evil and madness, unrestrained destruction. Not for being the strongest.

I disagree with everything in the OP.
 
"Also, Kid Buu is not stronger even in the anime. Those are mistranslations"

Those translations are from Steven Simmons, who had his translations reviewed and approved by Herms. I don't think I need to tell anyone who that is.

So no. They are far from mistranslations.
 
So what? They are still wrong. Kid Buu is weaker. SSJ3 Goku could have beat Kid Buu but admits that he can't beat Super Buu.
 
Approving them, simply means they had permission to keep them, that does not make the translation accurate.

Super Buu is clearly a more powerful fighter than Kid Buu; Kid Buu is more dangerous simply because Kid Buu is pure rage incarnate and actively tries to destroy everything. Where as Super Buu would much rather have some fun while eating a whole bunch of candy and deserts.
 
"So what? They are still wrong. Kid Buu is weaker. SSJ3 Goku could have beat Kid Buu but admits that he can't beat Super Buu."

Goku also said Kid Boo was in a whole different level of power and speed when compared to other Boos. Parroted by Kibitoshin and the omniscient narrator. Also parroted by the Dragon Books twice.

This isn't the manga, this is the anime, aka Toei.

I also agreed with maintaining their 4-A ratings, but definitely not the powerscaling, which is completely different from the Z anime.
 
Also, Pikkon never appeared on GT. Gogeta is from Fusion Reborn, not the anime.
 
Feats > Statements.

Goku states both in the manga and in the anime that he could beat Kid Boo if he had full stamina, while he admits both in the manga and the anime that he can't beat Super Boo or Super Boo with Piccolo absorbed.

To top it off, he gets beat up easily by Gotenks Boo. While Ultimate Gohan holds his own for a while.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Also, Pikkon never appeared on GT. Gogeta is from Fusion Reborn, not the anime.
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Yes, and Fusion Reborn follows the anime. Also Garlic Junior is in the anime, meaning that his movie is canon. And at least the first Cooler movie is canon. And stuff with the Tuffles is anime-only and canon too for the anime. The Toei Continuity also has its own explanation for Future Trunks' sword which is only in the anime. He uses Dragon Fist in GT which is a move from that movie.
 
There is also the fact that Vegeta knows the fusion dance in GT meaning that he would have had to have learnt it before. The only logical explanation is that Fusion Reborn is canon to GT.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
Feats > Statements.

Goku states both in the manga and in the anime that he could beat Kid Boo if he had full stamina, while he admits both in the manga and the anime that he can't beat Super Boo or Super Boo with Piccolo absorbed.

To top it off, he gets beat up easily by Gotenks Boo. While Ultimate Gohan holds his own for a while.
Click to expand...
But most of the stuff you mentioned is composed of statements, not feats.

Even the last one can be countered by SSjin Goku beating a version of Ultimate Gohan stated by several sources, including the anime itself, to be as strong the real thing. A feat that is supplemented by a statement

Also both the Daizenshuu and Perfect Files are full of contradictions.

The Perfect Files has been analyzed several times and only one mistake has been found: it states nobody ever used SSjin2, but Goku used it against Rildo for a few moments.

Nothing beyond that was found, which means it is generally a very reliable guidebook, and it should be held in contrast to the Naruto databooks (which is full of hyperboles) or the Daizenshuu (which is sometimes reliable, but not always)

It helps that it was written by the scriptwriters of GT, too.

Don't bring up the "SSjin Vegito >= SSjin4 Goku" "mistake". It comes from a chinese anime comics, not from the Perfect Files. Herms himself has stepped up to clear this rumor up.

Yes, and Fusion Reborn follows the anime.

Fusion Reborn makes the villains of the older movies appear. A lot of them are non-canon, the only exception being Garlic Jr as you pointed out yourself.

Cooler is not canon to the Z anime. He is never mentioned or even seen in filler arcs, and the Pikkon Arc debunks him being canon. Him appearing on GT is evidence of it not following the anime's continuity, but that's beside the point. I agree with scaling them to 4-A, I just don't agree with powerscaling.

The Toei Continuity also has its own explanation for Future Trunks' sword which is only in the anime.

Tapion's sword is not Future Trunks's sword. That'd require an enormous time paradox.

He uses Dragon Fist in GT which is a move from that movie.

Seems like a homage. If the Dragon Fist he used in GT was the same one he used in the movies, why didn't Hirudegarn appear after the portal to Hell was opened?
 
"There is also the fact that Vegeta knows the fusion dance in GT meaning that he would have had to have learnt it before."

Vegeta said he saw it in the afterlife when he and Goku were inside Super Boo.
 
Outliers exist in the anime continuity. Goku fighting a version of Ultimate Gohan inside Buu is nonsense.

"Tapion's sword is not Future Trunks's sword. That'd require an enormous time paradox."

No, but it is GT Trunks' sword. He gives it to Kid Trunks at the end of his movie and GT Trunks wields it.

The Pikkon Arc doesn't debunk Cooler. That's like saying that it debunks every villain who doesn't have a cameo in it.

Fusion Reborn is also canon as Vegeta knows the Fusion Dance. Cooler is canon as he has a cameo in both Fusion Reborn and GT I think. Bojack also cameos in Fusion Reborn.
 
I'm also pretty sure Hirudegarn doesn't even have a soul to go to Hell, and even then absence =/= retcon or removal from continuity. That's not a real argument. Otherwise they'd have to constantly show and remind us of every villain.

Raditz didn't have a cameo leaving Hell. Doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
 
The Pikkon Arc debunks Cooler being canon, because it shows the entire Cold family side-to-side, but Cooler isn't present there. There's no reason for him not to appear there.

Also, the only movie villain to appear on GT was Cooler. Therefore, the only movie villain who is provably canon to GT is Cooler. You can make a case for a few others, but i'm not seeing how this proves GT follows the anime's continuity.

Raditz didn't have a cameo leaving Hell. Doesn't mean he doesn't exist.

Raditz HAD a cameo leaving Hell.
 
Cooler not appearing is probably because he's not usually with the rest of the family, ie look at all of his appearances. Even GT had him alone.

I'm pretty Matt's analogy still stands, do we have a scene of General White?
 
It doesn't show the entire Cold Family side-to-side, only Cold and Freeza. Also, Cold and Freeza were close. Freeza was his favored son while Cooler was an outcast. If anything, it makes sense for them to be distant from each other even in Hell.
 
"Also, the only movie villain to appear on GT was Cooler. Therefore, the only movie villain who is provably canon to GT is Cooler. You can make a case for a few others, but i'm not seeing how this proves GT follows the anime's continuity."

GT is literally Toei's continuation to their version of the continuity. It follows many of their own inventions such as the Tuffles, anime-only characters like Gregory, and references many of their movies such as Fusion Reborn, Cooler, and Wrath of the Dragon. It even started airing one week after Z ended, in the same timeslot, and is always said to be Z's anime sequel.

How in the world is it not following the Anime? It is.
 
@Ever

There is no evidence he is canon, no mention of his name, absolutely nothing tying him, or any other movie villain, really, to the Z anime (other than Garlic Jr). Therefore he isn't canon. Not to sound like an asshole, but we need solid evidence.

Yeah, Cooler is canon to GT. That can be proven.

That doesn't mean the others are, too. Especially because each movie takes place in an alternate continuity.

I'm pretty Matt's analogy still stands, do we have a scene of General Blue?

Yeah.

I grasp what you guys are talking about, but it's simply not the point i'm trying to make.
 
@Kep

Cooler is canon to Z and GT. GT is the sequel to Z. The GT anime uses the movie stuff many times, and Z itself uses Garlic Junior. The Z movies are based on the anime.
 
@Matt

Actually, I just realized I'm debating against something I've already conceded. I'm no longer arguing that GT isn't a sequel of Z, I'm arguing that its powerscaling and etc. are all different from Z.

Anyway, I still disagree with automatically making all the movie villains canon to GT just because one of them appears. The movies are all set on different continuities. Movie 2 ignores a lot of the stuff that happened in the anime, and so do Movies 6, 7, 8, 5, etc.
 
How is it different? Kid Buu is weaker than Super Buu even in the anime.

And I don't think all movies are canon, only those that can be fit into the continuity.

Garlic Junior, Cooler 1, Broly 1 and Broly 2, Bojack, Fusion Reborn, and Wrath of the Dragon all can be canon, and of these Garlic Junior, Cooler 1, Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon are all confirmed to be canon either in Z proper or GT.
 
I disagree with Kid Boo being weaker than Super Boo in the anime. Toei made several references to Kid Boo being the strongest in the original Japanese anime, and the Dragon Book (written by the Toei staff) reinforces what the narrator, Goku, and Kibitoshin all state.

"Majin Boo, you're a dense guy, but your power, speed, and recovery are all incredible. You're in a different level compared to any Boo up to now!" - Goku

"The initial, pure form of Boo, possessing the greatest of strength, that at least appears". - Dragon Book

I'll screencap the narrator and Kibitoshin's statements. In the manga, Kibitoshin states Kid Boo is the most troublesome Boo, but in the anime he outright says strongest. He also states Super Boo's ki was increasing while he was being turned into South-Kaioshin Boo, and he didn't say it decreased after he reverted to Kid Boo, while in the manga, Goku states Kid Boo had gotten weaker.

I'll dig up both of these up.

Toei made it clear that they'd like to throw all logic out the window and make the participants of the final battle the strongest, retconning every single statement suggesting otherwise.

Even without that, there are several examples of Toei ungodly bloating characters in their work. Filler Yamcha roflstomped Olibu, who temporarily kept up with a Weighted Pikkon. Mr Popo...self-explanatory. SSjin 2 Goku did FAR better against Transformed Hirudegarn than Ultimate Gohan did against Base Hirudegarn.

And the list goes on and on, really. Movie 6 Goku is confident in fighting a Metal Cooler who told him he had powered-up ever since their last fight. Even if Cooler was suppressed, Goku's confidence at fighting an opponent stronger than 100% Freeza (at least) in base isn't explained.
 
"I disagree with Kid Boo being weaker than Super Boo in the anime. Toei made several references to Kid Boo being the strongest in the original Japanese anime, and the Dragon Book (written by the Toei staff) reinforces what the narrator, Goku, and Kibitoshin all state."

But that's blatantly incorrect in the story itself.

"Toei made it clear that they'd like to throw all logic out the window and make the participants of the final battle the strongest, retconning every single statement suggesting otherwise."

They didn't. The instances which show and state that Kid Buu isn't the strongest are in the anime

"Filler Yamcha roflstomped Olibu, who temporarily kept up with a Weighted Pikkon. Mr Popo...self-explanatory."

Both are blatant outliers which we don't accept.

"SSjin 2 Goku did FAR better against Transformed Hirudegarn than Ultimate Gohan did against Base Hirudegarn."

That takes place 2 years after the Buu Saga. Goku could simply have grown in power.

"Movie 6 Goku is confident in fighting a Metal Cooler who told him he had powered-up ever since their last fight. Even if Cooler was suppressed, Goku's confidence at fighting an opponent stronger than 100% Freeza (at least) in base isn't explained."

Sure it is. Years of training = Goku being stronger.

Fusion Reborn Base Gohan, which is pre Elder Kai training meaning he is weaker than Base Teenage Gohan, casually one-shots Final Form Freeza. The Toeiland characters simply have immense gains.
 
"But that's blatantly incorrect in the story itself."

How is it incorrect in the story? A lot of the stuff I provided is composed of direct statements from the anime itself. The guidebook is only there to nail it.

"They didn't. The instances which show and state that Kid Buu isn't the strongest are in the anime"

Nobody states Kid Boo isn't the strongest in the anime. Super Boo was stated to be stronger than Goku, and then Kid Boo came out and Goku, Kibitoshin, and the Narrator all stated he was the strongest Boo. Elder Kaioshin agreed with Kibitoshin, and he had seen Gohan-Boo in action. Thus retconning Super Boo's superiority.

It is asisine as hell, and I really don't like it and I'd like to agree with you guys, but that's the mess Toei made.

"Both are blatant outliers which we don't accept."

It shows Toei is more than willing to bloat the characters up and retcon their powers, even if it goes against the logic of the story.

"That takes place 2 years after the Buu Saga. Goku could simply have grown in power."

According to Daizenshuu 7, the Wrath of the Dragon movie takes place in Age 774, the same year they place Kid Boo's rampages. It is the Daizenshuu, but there is literally nothing else to suggest the time other than this, and I don't know where you got the 2 years from.

"Sure it is. Years of training = Goku being stronger."

Goku fought Cooler in base, after being told Cooler was stronger than before. Thus making Base Goku at least close to the Cooler from the previous film, unless he is crazy and wants to dive face-fist into the fight without turning into a Super Saiyan.

I'll concede the years part, though. Movie 5 was Age 764 and Movie 6 was Age 767.

Still a pretty huge gain, nonetheless.

"Fusion Reborn Base Gohan, which is pre Elder Kai training meaning he is weaker than Base Teenage Gohan, casually one-shots Final Form Freeza. The Toeiland characters simply have immense gains."

An even bigger, bloated gain:

Kami-sama fighting against opponents comparable to 2nd Form Freeza in the Garlic Jr. Saga.

Anyway, I promised to dig up some statements and I'll do this, so my next response might take a while.
 
>Stuff about Kid Buu statements

They are meaningless. They are incorrect by feats. SSJ3 Goku could fight Kid Buu while he can't fight base Super Buu.

All those bloated gains have an explanation behind it. Training.

Kid Buu being stronger than a form which is literally Kid Buu + South Kai + Grand Kai - All disadvantages makes zero sense, and should be ignored.
 
I completely agree with Matthew Schroeder here.
 
I am leaning towards agreeing with Matthew. Sorry.
 
@Matt

Remember, Goku being unable to fight base Super Boo comes from a statement, not a feat. The only thing we're shown is him losing to Gotenks-Boo (who is >> Super Boo). Then that is retconned by everything in the Kid Boo fight.

Kami-sama was not shown training, and somehow he did better against First Form Garlic Jr. than Piccolo did.

Kid Boo absorbing South Kai and Grand Kai was outright stated in the anime to weaken him. In the manga, the absorption of South Kai strengthens him. In the anime, his power at most stays the same.
 
No it didn't. South Kai matched Kid Buu. Then Kid Buu absorbed him and got stronger. Then he absorbed Grand Kai, but his goodness turned him into Fat Buu, weakening him. Then Fat Buu is split into Good and Evil, and the Evil half takes over, thus ruling out all the good in him, allowing him to receive the actual power of Grand Kai without the weakness that being good gave him.

Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu is the same thing as Base Goku being stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Makes absolutely no sense.
 
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