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GT doesn't follow the anime

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Kid Buu being stronger than Buuhan [Much stronger than S.Buu, who was going to casually oneshot SS Goku] makes no sense since he fought at similar terms with SS3 Goku, Goku said that he needed to fuse with Vegeta to stand a chance against Buuhan, the latter with his combined minds stated that if they normally fused they would be still not a problem for him. When Buu shrinked they thought to have more chances against him.
 
How is 4-A the most backed up option? There are no 4-A feats outside of Syn Shenron busting a galaxy in thepast.
 
I'm still astounded how Broly stopped being an outlier... He used to be the poster boy of outlier.
 
I'm surprised we didn't realize the 4-A feats earlier honestly.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'm still astounded how Broly stopped being an outlier... He used to be the poster boy of outlier.
Click to expand...
I heard in the past that the same thing was said about Sephiroth.
 
I heard in the past that the same thing was said about Sephiroth.

Sephiroth was never an outlier. It was just contested on being an illusion or not, which if DB is anything to go by, is still being discussed.
 
Broly's feat doesn't scale to GT, there's no proof the movie villains are canon to that series. Each movie has a different continuity, so Cooler appearing doesn't mean Broly is canon.

The powerscaling of GT contradicts the powerscaling of Z. It has Gohan-Boo as the strongest majin, even though Kid Boo is stated to be the strongest by Goku, who sensed both Gotenks and Gohan-Boo.

@Dark679

Goku also fought Ultimate Gohan as a Super Saiyan and won, and he stated the Fake Gohan had the same power as the real one.

Each of Toei's arcs contradicts the last one. If you remember correctly, M6 Cooler states Goku is stronger than before when he fought him as base. That would make Base Goku from Movie 6 stronger than SSjin Goku from Movie 5, which is ridiculous, but stated.

Toei likes to retcon and inflate power-levels a lot. Pikkon defeating Super Perfect Cell with one-blow is further proof of that. Even if you think Cell was suppressed, he'd still need to be stronger than SSjin Goku from the Cell Games in order to think he could defeat Goku, and Base Goku matched Pikkon, who felt the need to take his weights off. c

Toei has Goku lampshade this on GT.
 
Pretty sure we've already established movie is apart of Toei continuity thanks to being, well, Toei movies. That said, the movies have the same continuity, Paragus (from broly) for example appeared in Fusion Reborn.

But it would still contradict the scaling of the manga. If it contradicts both that way, then it means that its a moot point. And it doesn't even contradict it, the scaling ignores the fact that Gohan did not power up and got affected by transmutation hax.
 
Broly appeared in the cover of fusion reborn, through he did not appeared, but Goku said that Broly likes to rampage in hell, so he could have escaped whatenever there was his chance.

The Anime Buu Saga things, i repeat they are outlier since it implies that SS3 Goku is stronger than Buuhan and SS Gogeta, which is a massive outlier.

Cooler said that Goku improved, meaning his base was stronger than before since he fought with base Goku and did not referred to the SS State, which obliviosly also improved.

Pikkon is just that strong, also it doesn't cause scaling problems since SS2 Vegeta needed the Majin boost to match SS2 Goku.
 
GT is not part of the Toei continuity. It's a Toei work, but we've already established that it doesn't follow the anime.

Fusion Reborn is the same as GT?...

They are not outliers. Even the episode title states that "Goku was the strongest afterall". Toei believes Goku to be the strongest, and has Kid Boo as the strongest, therefore it's true and overrides everything that came before (a common Toei habit. They like to retcon everything, this has been present since the early DBZ movies)

Are we supposed to believe the statements that outright imply that Kid Boo's ki increased after Fat Boo's pod was removed, and didn't decrease after that are false?

Are we supposed to believe Goku lied when he directly said Kid Boo was stronger than all the Boos that came before, and that the omniscient narrator, who repeats what Goku said about Kid Boo, is lying?

Sorry, but I prefer what Toei established to be true; that is, that Kid Boo's ki > All the other Boos. Retcons are a thing that Toei abuses.

Goku states that Vegito can still defeat Kid Boo (which can be explained as Vegito having stronger forms that could make the job easier) and he defeats a version of Ultimate Gohan stated (in the anime, not the guidebooks) to be as powerful as the true Gohan. He also knocked a full-on guard Gohan-Boo back as a Super Saiyan.
 
The real cal howard said:
I'm still astounded how Broly stopped being an outlier... He used to be the poster boy of outlier.
Click to expand...
When did it stop being an outlier? Broly being 3-C/4-A is possibly the most ridiculous thing in Dragon Ball. Are we accepting it now?
 
The original poster:

"This was a case of Toei taking huge liberties with what Akira Toriyama laid out in the manga. Up until Gotenks was absorbed, Toei kept to the manga's hierarchy fairly well, but after that, things began to spiral into contradiction after contradiction as they decided to go their own way while still keeping key parts of the manga intact. Naturally, they would want Son Goku and Kid Boo to be the strongest fighters since they are the main participants in the "final battle." Unlike Toriyama, who knew full well that Goku and Kid Boo were not the strongest despite being in the final battle, Toei thought it fit to change things and, in a twisted, half-brained way, made Super Saiyan 3 Goku and Kid Boo the strongest fighters in the Z anime; this would include even Super Saiyan Vegetto.

To close this chapter of the saga up, as the Genki-Dama was being prepared, the narrator reaffirmed that Kid Boo was the strongest form of Majin Boo."
 
You are quite literally saying it is not part of anime continuity from one scaling inconsistency, which I already pointed out is because you're blatantly ignoring the fact that the scaling is ignoring that Gohan did not power up fully yet and was struck by transmutation hax.
 
I'm not blatantly ignoring anything. I hadn't seen your comment.

Also, Base Gohan is still stronger than Ultimate Gohan, since he trained for five years.
 
The original poster's comments:

After all of this, the trouble should be beginning to show itself. By Toei's Z logic

Super Saiyan 3 Goku >= Kid Boo > Super Saiyan Vegetto > Gohan-Boo = Base Vegetto > Gotenks-Boo > Super Saiyan Goku > Super Saiyan Vegeta > Ultimate Gohan >= Base Goku > Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = Super Boo > Base Vegeta > Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks > Super Saiyan Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Base Gotenks (post-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan Gotenks (pre-RoSaT) > Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Goku > Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta

Yet Base Goku is only barely stronger than General Rild, who was stated stronger than some form of Majin Boo. If that form was Kid Boo, then by the logic set up in Z, Goku should have surpassed that level of power by the beginning of GT, let alone after increasing his strength multifold by the time he fought Rild. Any other form of Boo does not make sense with what is stated in Z, given that Base Goku was already nearly on par with Ultimate Gohan, then trained for ten years, then trained for another five years with Kid Boo's reincarnation that was already stronger than Good Boo, then gained a rather large power-up before fighting Rild. Going by Z's logic, the only power Goku could have be expecting from Oob was Kid Boo's power, whom he was the reincarnation of, after all. That would put Base Goku on par with Kid Boo by the end of Z, effectively making him and an enraged Oob the strongest beings until GT.

Gotenks-Boo does not make sense because according to the Perfect Files, Base Gohan at the beginning of GT is at least on par with his Ultimate self from Z, and then gains power from Baby possessing him and Super Saiyan, which would no doubt put him above said Boo considering that, by addition, said Boo is not even twice as powerful as Ultimate Gohan. As a Super Saiyan with Baby's power, Gohan was at best slightly stronger than Base Goku (post-space battles).

Gohan-Boo also does not make sense as, by addition, he would not be twice as strong as Ultimate Gohan either.

Super Boo, Fat Boo, Skinny Boo, and Good Boo do not make sense because Base Goku was already shown to be superior to them, at least in Toei's collective mind.

Base Goku (M2) > Rild > Super Mega Cannon Sigma > Sigma Bots > Super Saiyan Goku (Imegga) > Redjic > Base Goku (Imegga) = Oob (BOGT) > Kid Boo ~ Oob (EOZ) = Base Goku (EOZ) > All other Boos

...simply does not work.

What's more, it would beg the question of why Goku did not comment that Redjic, the Sigma Bots, or the combined Sigmas were stronger than Majin Boo if that was the case, which it would have been going by Z's anime logic.

It should be noted that Toei abandoned their idea of having Base Goku slightly superior to Weighted Pikkon, who was shown to be heavily superior to "Super" Perfect Cell, by the time the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai happened.

Conclusively, if Toei could not be bothered to stick with one asinine chain of anime hax, and could not be bothered to make things consistent in the latter half of the Boo arc, it should be reasonable to claim that they either did not remember what they had done with the Z anime, or simply did not go about GT in that manner.
 
Joseph619 said:
When did it stop being an outlier? Broly being 3-C/4-A is possibly the most ridiculous thing in Dragon Ball. Are we accepting it now?
Click to expand...
For a long time we accepted it, i think that's fine and we accepted worst things than that.

In that Filler Piccolo and SS3 Gotenks were shown to be comparable with eachother and Goku never defeated Mystic Gohan, since they turned into cake when they were sorrounded and felt to be screwed. Super Buu toyed with them and was going to oneshot Goku if Vegeta did not cutted the other char. Infact we should not use Toei logic on GT while keeping the 4-A ratings.
 
@Somebody: I wasn't around. Why was it not considered an outlier anymore? Is Goku being scaled from that as well?
 
Oh. Well if everyone gets scaled then I guess there's no problem. I remember Broly being a glass canon which is why I was concerned. Although I do not remember when it was changed, I was away for a long time
 
@Dark649

A few moments later, Kibitoshin states that Kid Boo's ki is increasing, Goku states Kid Boo is stronger than all the other Boos that came before, the narrator reaffirms Kid Boo's superiority over the previous Boos, and the episode titles state that "Goku really is the strongest, after all".

All of this points towards a retcon.
 
" Goku should have surpassed that level of power by the beginning of GT,"

Annnnnd that's where his argument fell apart. He forgot that Goku was weakened when he turned into a kid.

And even without that, it was an unspecified amount stronger than the Buu.
 
"Annnnnd that's where his argument fell apart. He forgot that Goku was weakened when he turned into a kid."

Debunked by him already. Goku getting weaker is a common fan misconception.

"In a brief series of unfortunate events, Goku was turned into a kid. He was not stated to have lost any power from this in the show itself, and the Perfect Files Volume 1 note: "His body's strength doesn't seem to be any different than when he was an adult, but apparently his small body has diminished his stamina."
 
We don't take Perfect Files here. That's one of the reasons why Omega Shenron was downgraded from 3-C.
 
That's Fake, i have heard in the interviews and in do you know anime that Goku was turned into kid since he was stronger as an adult, which decreased his stamina and control since he also had problems with the IT.

I say we should not use the Buu Saga Toei things on GT while keeping the 4-A ratings, simple.
 
@Dark his "inconsistencies" aren't actual inconsistencies as I've mentioned several times above. So we can keep the Buu Saga Toei scaling.
 
"We don't take Perfect Files here. That's one of the reasons why Omega Shenron was downgraded from 3-C. "

The GT Perfect Files doesn't specify how much time it took for Syn to destroy a galaxy, so it isn't contradictory to his current 4-A rating.

Also, if you're going to mention the PF stating that Vegetto is stronger than SSjin4, it never happened. It was a random chinese anime comics. So no contradiction.

Even if you take out the GTPF, which has shown itself to be very reliable, there's no evidence that Goku's power decreased, and saying it did goes against our guidebook policies.

@Dark679

I agree with that.
 
Goku said he was amazing as he expected, and he expected him to be stronger than Good Boo, and logically comparable to Kid Boo since Oob is his reincarnation.

@SD

The inconsistencies are very much real inconsistencies. Your argument for why they weren't was based off Goku supposedly getting weaker (which, mind you, isn't supported by anything)
 
I'm going to a concert right now, so I'll only be able to respond in two or three hours or so. So you guys will have to wait for any counters :p

I agree with Dark679's suggestion wholeheartedly. I was starting to think we shouldn't ditch all the feats, but we should ditch the powerscaling from the beginning.
 
From kanzenshuu themselves

"Q: Why did Gokuu become a child!?

A: You know that the anime "Dragon Ball" series had the concept of "We'll depict the process and growth of Gokuu getting stronger," right? However, the Gokuu who had defeated the ultimately strong Majin Boo in "Z" was, to speak conversely, "Getting too strong." For that reason, it was very difficult to depict growth as an adult. Therefore, he was reverted to a child, and made to bear a handicap of being unable to use Shunkan Idou. However, even if he's smaller, Gokuu is Gokuu. Since he defeated the ultimately strong Baby, he was strong after all!!"
 
If Base Goku reached Kid Buu level in EoZ, then I've been downplaying him this entire time.

Then we throw in the time skip prior to GT and Super 17 Saga.
 
That doesn't suggest Goku became weaker. All they speak of is him growing stronger faster as an adult than as a kid. In fact, they state that Goku is still Goku, even if he's smaller, and his only handicap was being unable to use IT.

By the way, the same people who said that wrote a guidebook saying otherwise, and on clear terms. Therefore it overrides a casual statement.

You have the following:

1. Goku didn't get any weaker.

Evidence: A guidebook written by the scriptwriters of Dragon Ball GT, and also the fact that the anime doesn't say anything about the matter, which means using the guidebook goes hand-in-hand with our regulations.

2. Goku got weaker.

Evidence: An indirect statement by one of the scriptwriters that can be explained by other means. The anime doesn't say anything about it.

Now, notice the fact that even the interview can be reconciled with what the guidebook said (that Goku's stamina diminished, but not his bodily strength), and ask yourself which is more likely, that Goku didn't become weaker, or that he became weaker?

Occam's Razor supports my point of view, and therefore the burden of proof is on you.
 
They quite literally state the issue was that he was too strong, which gave way to other issues.

Even if you are correct, Kid Goku being equal in terms of strength that is, that is quite literally only one small supporting point for the overall argument which I already pointed out was flawed.

Also just realized his argument also hinges on Uub EoZ (not even GT) = Kid Buu = Son Goku Base. Which is quite absurd given his lack of mastery at that point.
 
They state that Adult Goku was growing too strong, so they hindered his growth by turning him into a kid. The GTPF was written by them, and it expands on this by stating that Goku's bodily strength was the same, but his stamina greatly dropped due to it being condensed into a smaller body. This is shown in the anime after he turns into SSjin3.

This would logically fit perfectly into the growing too strong statement, as his low stamina would hinder his growth.

In other words, it doesn't contradict what I said.

You pointed out his argument was flawed because Goku was weaker. This is conjecture disproved by the GTPF, which is generally very reliable and has very little goofs, at least compared to the Daizenshuu, which has 1 mistake per 50 pages.

In fact, the same guy I linked to in the OP has analyzed the entire GTPF, both volumes, and he found only ONE mistake: they imply that SSjin2 was never used in the anime, but it was presumably used briefly by Goku in his fight against Rildo. Even this isn't set in stone.

So GTPF has almost no mistakes, it expands on the anime, and it was written by the same people who wrote GT. Therefore it stands in great contrast to other databooks, such as the Naruto ones (lightspeed Light-Fang, multi-galaxy busting Madara, planet-splitting Kinshiki, multi-continental Temari, etc.) or the Daizenshuu, which, while somewhat reliable, still has 1 mistake per 50 pages.

Expanding on what I said above, you so far have shown nothing to suggest the guy's argument is flawed, other than the Goku point and the Rildo vs. Gohan one; which is not THAT relevant, because Base GT Gohan >> Ultimate Gohan and Rildo traded blows with him before he used his transmutation.

Also, this new argument you presented is also flawed. Lack of mastery and lack of power aren't mutually exclusive, unless you believe Enraged Gohan from the Freeza Saga is weaker than 1st Form Freeza because he has "no mastery".

Not to mention the fact this goes against Goku saying Oob was as amazing as he expected. Even before he saw Oob, he expected him to be considerably above Good-Boo, and logically at least around Kid Boo's level of power.
 
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