Gravity Falls General Discussion Thread

[ThanatosX]

WOOOOOOOOOOOOW, DEFINITELY NOT STRAWMANNING MY ARGUMENTS!

Calm down, man. We are just discussioning...

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Yeah, the real world is also that I dont understand the point

The point is I wouldn't take the 4th wall break ARGs as anything cosmology related and that Dennis residing in same reality is also further not supported by my point here

When Bill refers to the READER he also talks about Dennis in terms of him being outside even the readers world or at least separate from them.

 

[ShionAH]

The point is I wouldn't take the 4th wall break ARGs as anything cosmology related and that Dennis residing in same reality is also further not supported by my point here

So what you mean is Dennis is even beyond our universe? Tbh is the Reader a Real World being or just someone within Gravity Falls verse, ‘cause Bill straight up says he can start Weirdmageddon in Readers World

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

So what you mean is Dennis is even beyond our universe? Tbh is the Reader a Real World being or just someone within Gravity Falls verse, ‘cause Bill straight up says he can start Weirdmageddon in Readers World

Relatively speaking I guess. But I wouldn't seriously consider there being an actual reader's world.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually, from how Bill describes Dennis' world, and how affecting the card affects also the world within it... I think it's just a massive outlier for Bill and TB.

Affecting the card does the same to the multiverse within it, clearly meaning QS. However...

Secondly, a 1-A level cannot be attained by a process in which the lower level quantitatively "adds up" to itself to break through into the higher one, due to the total lack of structural continuity between the two; the higher level cannot be attained, nor expressed by, any expansions of the lower one, and therefore things from the latter cannot interfere with the former by means of their own lower existences. Put simply: A non-1-A cannot reach the level of 1-A by appealing to another non-1-A

Bill reached Dennis' world from just beating up with TB hard enough, and none of them had other stuff for 1-A prior.

Calm down, man. We are just discussioning...

I am being strawmanned twice for the exact same reason. Having stuff put into my mouth isn't something I like.

But anyway, I never said that Bill can't be 1-A because of dimensionality. He can't be because it'd completely contradict the whole story of Gravity Falls.

 

[ShionAH]

Bill reached Dennis' world from just beating up with TB hard enough, and none of them had other stuff for 1-A prior.

I think that criteria is talking about situations where a character absorbs/steals the power of a character that is very obviously not Outer and then doing an “Outer” feat like beating up and Outer character

Atleast thats what I understood

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think that criteria is talking about situations where a character absorbs/steals the power of a character that is very obviously not Outer

Atleast thats what I understood

Getting in a 1-A world from simply punching hard with a non-1-A isn't better either...

Bill and TB have clearly no other feats to be put on that level outside of really iffy 4th wall breaks. Just label it as outlier and move on.

 

[ThanatosX]

But anyway, I never said that Bill can't be 1-A because of dimensionality. He can't be because it'd completely contradict the whole story of Gravity Falls.

I think you mean it in sense that in the show he couldn't affect the 3 dimension without having a physical body, right? Correct me if I am wrong.
But in this case wouldn't the Book of Bill also retcon this? Since he is stated to have destroyed planets (3 dimensional objects) while being 2-D, which goes against the notion of him needing a physical body in order to affect the 3rd dimension. But again, I could be misunderstanding your argument.
Honestly, I might need to read the Book of Bill to have a better understanding of this, since it is a bit confusing all things considered.

 

[ShionAH]

Getting in a 1-A world from simply punching hard with a non-1-A isn't better either...

Unless both of them are Outer, which supported by other stuff imply it

Bill and TB have clearly no other feats to be put on that level outside of really iffy 4th wall breaks. Just label it as outlier and move on.

I’ll think about it, it would be sad sight to see such a big feat end up as a note

 

[RedReaper616]

I think it'd be absolutely hilarious.

HEY POWERSCALERS, HERE'S YOUR GOLDEN GOOSE, THE PERFECT FEAT TO GET ME TO YOUR STINKY INTERNET GODHOOD. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO TO GET IT IS IGNORE ALL CONTINUITY AND EVIDENCE AN EMBRACE THE CHAOS OF NONSENSE! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Feels very Bill.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think you mean it in sense that in the show he couldn't affect the 3 dimension without having a physical body, right? Correct me if I am wrong.
But in this case wouldn't the Book of Bill also retcon this? Since he is stated to have destroyed planets (3 dimensional objects) while being 2-D, which goes against the notion of him needing a physical body in order to affect the 3rd dimension. But again, I could be misunderstanding your argument.
Honestly, I might need to read the Book of Bill to have a better understanding of this, since it is a bit confusing all things considered.

You clearly didn't understand, again.

I talk about his raw power. Why would he need the Weirdmageddon if he was already 1-A?

Unless both of them are Outer, which supported by other stuff imply it

It's ok to be wrong.

 

[RedReaper616]

You clearly didn't understand, again.

I talk about his raw power. Why would he need the Weirdmageddon if he was already 1-A?

It's ok to be wrong.

Personally I think it's just a matter of Bill's range. Also, given Time Baby confirms there's infinite Bill's, and Bill can travel timelines, this means Bill can meet himself if he wanted.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Personally I think it's just a matter of Bill's range. Also, given Time Baby confirms there's infinite Bill's, and Bill can travel timelines, this means Bill can meet himself if he wanted.

Bill didn't just go in Dennis' world, he physically knocked him out, that requires 1-A AP.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bill didn't just go in Dennis' world, he physically knocked him out, that requires 1-A AP.

Knocked out? He didn't do that at all. He just knocked around the card in his backpack.

"TANTRUM"

...and there was a moment where they both clipped through reality jostled the card carrier in Dennis’s backpack.

That's it.

EDIT: Though, shaking the card is in effect shaking the whole multiverse, sooooooo 2-A Mindscape Bill? (I JEST, I JEST.)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Knocked out? He didn't do that at all. He just knocked around the card in his backpack.

...I had the impression it did.

Cipher and TB lunged at each other. It was hard to see the exact nature of the time fight but there were a lot of clocks, portals, and paradoxes involved. At one point someone used nunchucks made out of two Abe Lincolns, and there was a moment where they both clipped through reality jostled the card carrier in Dennis’s backpack. But ultimately Cipher’s henchmaniacs dealt TB a devastating blow. We Time Agents were leaderless, forced to regroup back in 20712.

So if I got it right, both somehow went outside the card and even physically moved the card carrier.

Reading the R>F page, we have this:

Particularly in the latter cases, the portrayal of the real world can also play a relevant role in the evaluation. Specifically: While a generic superiority in power to lower-world beings on the part of the inhabitants of the higher world serves as supporting evidence at best, cases where the superiority in question is treated as "size-like" (Not in the sense of being literally correlated with space, but in the sense of the real world being depicted as somehow "vaster" and more immense than the fiction) in some way are also great material to build a case for a genuine transcendence.

Which makes sense, because the multiverse is literally inside Dennis' card, and whatever happens to the card reflects to the multiverse inside.

However in the diqualifiers we have this:

The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it by being something rooted in a higher reality. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated. For more detailed information, see here.

Bill and TB simply did from... fighting against each other really hard. They didn't exactly transcend their world.

So... idk.

 

[StrymULTRA]

EDIT: Though, shaking the card is in effect shaking the whole multiverse, sooooooo 2-A Mindscape Bill? (I JEST, I JEST.)

I talked with Ultima and... in short...

Bill and TB affecting the Card Holder is an anti-feat for Dennis, as that's an unexplained interaction, unless we discard it as a complete outlier. I'd lean towards that, as Bill in his mindscape form has casually made a feat far stronger than the Weirdmageddon stuff... which affected only one timeline/multiverse.

And Bill finds the Weirdmageddon state far stronger than his Mindscape form ofc, to the point he claims to have infinite power multiple times when having the 3D body.

 

[RedReaper616]

...I had the impression it did.



So if I got it right, both somehow went outside the card and even physically moved the card carrier.

Reading the R>F page, we have this:

Particularly in the latter cases, the portrayal of the real world can also play a relevant role in the evaluation. Specifically: While a generic superiority in power to lower-world beings on the part of the inhabitants of the higher world serves as supporting evidence at best, cases where the superiority in question is treated as "size-like" (Not in the sense of being literally correlated with space, but in the sense of the real world being depicted as somehow "vaster" and more immense than the fiction) in some way are also great material to build a case for a genuine transcendence.

Which makes sense, because the multiverse is literally inside Dennis' card, and whatever happens to the card reflects to the multiverse inside.

However in the diqualifiers we have this:

The fictional characters being able to attack the real ones without being shown to somehow have transcended their fictional world or having special abilities that allow it by being something rooted in a higher reality. Such instances often have to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis to judge how they are best rated. For more detailed information, see here.

Bill and TB simply did from... fighting against each other really hard. They didn't exactly transcend their world.

So... idk.

On a brighter note, straight up confirmation for Acausality Type 1. So yaaaay! Also, via his chrono-travel memetic effect (allowing him to live forever in the world of ideas), does that give him Acausality Type 3? Genuine question.

 

[RedReaper616]

I talked with Ultima and... in short...

Bill and TB affecting the Card Holder is an anti-feat for Dennis, as that's an unexplained interaction, unless we discard it as a complete outlier. I'd lean towards that, as Bill in his mindscape form has casually made a feat far stronger than the Weirdmageddon stuff... which affected only one timeline/multiverse.

And Bill finds the Weirdmageddon state far stronger than his Mindscape form ofc, to the point he claims to have infinite power multiple times when having the 3D body.

Well, actually, hold on. They were in the Nightmare Realm when they did this, not the Mindscape. The whole point of Weirdmageddon is to create a moment in which Bill's powers over reality then affect our own reality (as the worlds conjoin for a brief instant). Which means that within the Nightmare Realm, wouldn't he be in his PHYSICAL FORM? (Obviously not his 3rd Dimensional Physical Form, but his 2 Dimensional one.)

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, actually, hold on. They were in the Nightmare Realm when they did this, not the Mindscape. The whole point of Weirdmageddon is to create a moment in which Bill's powers over reality then affect our own reality (as the worlds conjoin for a brief instant). Which means that within the Nightmare Realm, wouldn't he be in his PHYSICAL FORM? (Obviously not his 3rd Dimensional Physical Form, but his 2 Dimensional one.)

The whole point of gaininig a physical form is to become 3D.

Aka I don't think so? Plus Bill is getting empowered from the dimensional rift in Weirdmageddon, something that doesn't happen outside of it.

BESIDES, if you wanna argue the feat is of the Physical one... There's the issue of it still being an anti-feat due to it having 0 explanations on how Bill and TB did it. It'd still be 1-B according to him though.

 

[Spinoirr]

What's the new sandbox looking like now?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What's the new sandbox looking like now?

This. It doesn't include the stuff from the website however.

StrymULTRA/Bill PA

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[RedReaper616]

Also, Robbie's thing implies Bill can unironically manifest into our world via his Urban Myth bits except without the overwhelming cosmic power?


Also also, Oroborous gives you pages from Stanford in J3 about when he got an Axolotl. Bill made him throw it out, but it's heavily implied that it was connected to THE AXOLOTL in some way, and that he saw through it. Also, he was named Frilliam. AXO and BILL are the same guy?!?!?!?!?

 

[Tyranno223]

I think the half alive stuff refers to the current Bill rather than his usual state.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I think the half alive stuff refers to the current Bill rather than his usual state.

It... makes sense, given that the reader's question is "where are you now", blatantly after the show.

 

[RedReaper616]

Gonna need to make a Post-Gravity Falls Key.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Gonna need to make a Post-Gravity Falls Key.

I feel like that the current names of the keys, "Mindscape" and "Physical Form", are outdated at this point.

We should call them "Pre-Weirdmageddon" and "Weirdmageddon", because I don't know how else to call those.

 

[RedReaper616]

I feel like that the current names of the keys, "Mindscape" and "Physical Form", are outdated at this point.

We should call them "Pre-Weirdmageddon" and "Weirdmageddon", because I don't know how else to call those.

I share the same sentiment, mostly because of the various ways Bill seems to be able to manifest, and the fact Bill has a physical form outside of the Mindscape itself with his original 2-D existence. It just makes more sense to consider it as Weirdmageddon.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I feel like that the current names of the keys, "Mindscape" and "Physical Form", are outdated at this point.

We should call them "Pre-Weirdmageddon" and "Weirdmageddon", because I don't know how else to call those.

Wouldnt he still need a separate section for mindscape related abilities

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldnt he still need a separate section for mindscape related abilities

Given that Dipper % co. managed to do a lot of impossible stuff because of it... maybe?

 

[ShionAH]

Tbh I think Bill can still use the stuff that he used in Mindscape, because you know he is much more different than Dipper and other human

He is a DREAM DEMON so I feel like he can use his DREAM powers everywhere Idk

 

[StrymULTRA]

Tbh I think Bill can still use the stuff that he used in Mindscape, because you know he is much more different than Dipper and other human

He is a DREAM DEMON so I feel like he can use his DREAM powers everywhere Idk

Ngl I'd feel better safer than sorry and use assumptions like that.

Also because when Dipper was forced outside his body, Bill does say that he was "in the mindscape", but he was completely powerless in that case.

 

[RedReaper616]

Bill also pretty frequently states he exists as an idea and is imaginary, so I actually have to rescind my previous comments because Bill's very existence is an idea (ala Mindscape.) So his 2-D and Mindscape forms are the same...Somehow? It's all very confusing.

 

[RedReaper616]

Ngl I'd feel better safer than sorry and use assumptions like that.

Also because when Dipper was forced outside his body, Bill does say that he was "in the mindscape", but he was completely powerless in that case.

Dipper was capable of exhibiting the power of possession (even talking through the inanimate) in the Mindscape, so maybe it's a matter of just knowing what you need to do?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bill also pretty frequently states he exists as an idea and is imaginary, so I actually have to rescind my previous comments because Bill's very existence is an idea (ala Mindscape.) So his 2-D and Mindscape forms are the same...Somehow? It's all very confusing.

I'd still put everything he did in the midscape in another tabber, while saying in the "normally" something like

• Likely all the abilities showcased in the Mindscape (reasons)

Dipper was capable of exhibiting the power of possession (even talking through the inanimate) in the Mindscape, so maybe it's a matter of just knowing what you need to do?

I talk about stuff like laser beams or creating cats outta nowhere.

 

[RedReaper616]

I'd still put everything he did in the midscape in another tabber, while saying in the "normally" something like

• Likely all the abilities showcased in the Mindscape (reasons)

I talk about stuff like laser beams or creating cats outta nowhere.

That's what I mean. Given Dipper could possess the inanimate, like Bill can, maybe him not being capable of that is a matter of him not having experience in the Mindscape.

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's what I mean. Given Dipper could possess the inanimate, like Bill can, maybe him not being capable of that is a matter of him not having experience in the Mindscape.

But Dipper losing his body happened after the whole Mindscape thing... He already had experience lol.

 

[StrymULTRA]

On a good side I think I gathered enough information to make an update on the cosmology blog based on the new info.

I won't do it today though as I am super tired rn.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Let’s stop with 1-A bill (I disagree for strym’s reasons ofc) but can we at least rest knowing that bill shook the card (the fact that there’s a binder implies the existence of other multiverses)

Also timebaby said that the weight of the multiverse rested on his shoulders

 

[StrymULTRA]

but can we at least rest knowing that bill shook the card (the fact that there’s a binder implies the existence of other multiverses)

That's still an outlier given it happened pre-weirdmageddon.

Also timebaby said that the weight of the multiverse rested on his shoulders

That was blatantly a metaphor for saying that TB winning would have saved the multiverse from Bill.

 

[RedReaper616]

Let’s stop with 1-A bill (I disagree for strym’s reasons ofc) but can we at least rest knowing that bill shook the card (the fact that there’s a binder implies the existence of other multiverses)

Nah, still only one card.

Also timebaby said that the weight of the multiverse rested on his shoulders

Actually, that was outside narration. So it's straight up just the truth of the matter.