(GRACE) Garou VS Madara

[Qawsedf234]

Due to Madara's Edo physiology, the temperature and cosmic radiation from space will not affect him and this also grants Madara the ability to survive without the need for oxygen.

That's not the claim I was making. To win with BFR Garou needs to either incap Madara for a day or prevent him from returning to the battlefield within a week

Victory Conditions: Death of the opponent, removing the opponent from the battlefield for at least one week (BFR), knocking the opponent out for at least one hour, or incapacitating the opponent by putting him in a state in which he can not harm the other fighter(s) for over a day, are to be assumed as victory conditions.

Unless you can prove Madara has the travel speed to get from Jupiter (or any distant plant) to Earth within this timeframe its a win condition. Or escaping a black hole or escaping from the Sun.

Madara can also materialize the wings of his Perfect Susano'o to return to the battlefield.

What is Madara's travel speed?

Genjutsu itself is something Madara has already used on figurative characters, so it's not OoC. G

The Genjutsu he used on randos and on A was to paralyze them and Garou can resist paralysis inducement. Has he ever used complex illusions in the middle of a fight?

Garou manipulating chakra is NLF

Its not, Chakra is a natural energy source that exists in the world and with animals. Things can be made completely out of chakra as well without a chakra network being mandatory.

RW with Izanagi

Which he can only use once or twice unless the Edo Tensai nullifies that weakness.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

You are definitely underestimating Madara's EMS which allows you to anticipate and predict any Garou move as well as simply incapacitate and defeat him with Layered Mind, Illusion, Perception, Sleep, Soul, Light and Paralysis Manip, and all abilities further enhanced by the EMS. Genjutsu itself is something Madara has already used on figurative characters, so it's not OoC. Garou is definitely not getting around this and is a totally valid wincon.

genjutsu really isn't valid here since Garou being unconcious in any way would just be useless, and would actually probably make madara let his guard downif he thinks sleeping Garou can't fight
also Garou has his own analytical prediction, so.

Garou manipulating chakra is NLF, chakra and cosmic energy in OPM have different concepts as I already mentioned, and therefore verse equalization is inapplicable. Also, Garou's RW is not applicable in combat and Madara also has his own RW with Izanagi, which allows him to simply **** Garou off guard with any hard neg he prefers.

Garou has combat applicable cosmic awareness, which would let him understand chakra and utilize it, considering he steals abilities from blast and can use nuclear fission without having had those abilities to begin with
and "cosmic energy" is not an energy system to begin with, you quite literally made that up.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Madara can avoid BFR via

• Substitution Jutsu, (most deadly of all)
• Reverse summoning jutsu

* Izanagi

 

[Qawsedf234]

Madara can avoid BFR via

• Substitution Jutsu, (most deadly of all)
• Reverse summoning jutsu
• Izanagi

• Substitution Justu is just an illusion based on a burst of speed. If Madara gets thrown through a portal he can't use this to escape
• Reverse Summoning Jutsu does not prevent him from being BFR'ed again
• Izanagi can reverse the BFR.... and then he can be BFR'ed again

 

[TauanVictor]

• Substitution Jutsu, (most deadly of all)

I simply forgot that Madara can avoid this with a jutsu introduced in the first episodes of Naruto lol.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

• Substitution Justu is just an illusion based on a burst of speed. If Madara gets thrown through a portal he can't use this to escape

it's not we had an entire thread about this (and how much it really doesnt make sense even in universe), characters have substituted despite being literally sealed and immobile.

• Reverse Summoning Jutsu does not prevent him from being BFR'ed again

reverse summoning jutsu would allow him to return to the jutsu right after being BFR

 

[ZillertheBucko]

if garou can bfr madara like this then what's stopping him from opening a portal and just physically beating the shit out of madara through it, and then throwing what's left of him into some black hole in deep space

 

[TauanVictor]

if garou can bfr madara like this then what's stopping him from opening a portal and just physically beating the shit out of madara through it, and then throwing what's left of him into some black hole in deep space

Regen...

 

[Qawsedf234]

it's not we had an entire thread about this

If you did then the P&A section of the profiles I went to do not reflect this properly.

Regen...

Regen that's not hyperspeed. It still time to come back, especially when every attack utterly obliterates his body.

reverse summoning jutsu would allow him to return to the jutsu right after being BFR

Yes, and then he and and whatever summoned him is BFR'ed again.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

Yes, and then he and and whatever summoned him is BFR'ed again.

right but this only works on the assumption that Garou is going to constantly just use portals as oppose to trying to kick madara's ass.

also it's gonna be hard to constantly grab madara with Equal speed.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Regen...

a black hole by brother in christ
it'd be a permanent incap even if he technically could regen
and cosmic awareness would make this possible
wait, garou can also just make a black hole himself too. neat

 

[V999]

I think this is a stomp cosmic garou is too op

 

[ZillertheBucko]

I think this is a stomp cosmic garou is multi solar system

I can see you're new to this, so here's a word of advice
when the character with a lower tier has 1000 pages worth of p&a, it's probably not a stomp

 

[Qawsedf234]

garou is multi solar system

Only after he copied Saitama. Unless the OP meant Garou in that state.

 

[Shadowbokunohero]

I should prob clarify I dont think madara is going to always be able to avoid BFR as that would be NLF, just that I dont think it's nearly as of definitive wincon for Garou

 

[Qawsedf234]

when the character with a lower tier has 1000 pages worth of p&a, it's probably not a stomp

Madara vs Lumi when

 

[ZillertheBucko]

can someone recite madara's win cons again?

 

[Kachon123]

can someone recite madara's win cons again?

Regen lol

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Regen lol

garou skill stomps, one shots, adapts, copies, ADs, gg gg gg gg gg

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

• Substitution Justu is just an illusion based on a burst of speed. If Madara gets thrown through a portal he can't use this to escape

The official explanation of the technique never really reflected its actual usage in practice. Everyone agreed that, in practice, the substitution Jutsu is basically teleportation, but we didn't index that way because people were against "ignoring the official explanation".
Regardless its mechanics, however, the technique clearly works even if the user is completely immobilized.

• Here it is being used while Pain is literally encircled by Jiraiya's hair.
• Here it is being used by a Madara who was caught within Gaara's Sand Mausoleum sealing Jutsu.
• Here it is being used by a Madara who was caught by Naruto and Sasuke, and immobilized by Naruto's sealing Jutsu.

It should be noted that in all of these cases the Jutsu is being used against people who are comparable to the user in speed, if not faster in the NaruSasu example. Furthermore, Naruto and Sasuke have several layers of sensory and precognitive abilities, so them being blitzed by Madara's raw speed just doesn't work. The technique just "works", for lack of a better term.

• Reverse Summoning Jutsu does not prevent him from being BFR'ed again

It doesn't, but that kinda creates a bit of an Incon situation, especially because Madara can't be incapacitated due to his regeneration and infinite stamina.

• Izanagi can reverse the BFR.... and then he can be BFR'ed again

Same as above tbh, because the Rinnegan negates Izanagi's cost.

The Genjutsu he used on randos and on A was to paralyze them and Garou can resist paralysis inducement. Has he ever used complex illusions in the middle of a fight?

Madara is not stupid. If the paralysis doesn't work, he'll switch to a different flavor of genjutsu. Also, his genjutsu is layered, so it could just work against Garou regardless.
And yes, he has used more complex applications before. He used complex illusions against Obito and mind control against Kurama.

 

[Qawsedf234]

can someone recite madara's win cons again?

Basically:

• Genjutsu: Stuff like mind control / hypnosis
• Sealing: If Garou is stuck in a state where he can't move or resist sealing can be a win con
• Soul Stealing with the Rinnegan

Regardless its mechanics, however, the technique clearly works even if the user is completely immobilized.

I can agree with that, but my point is that the profiles do not reflect such a thing, which is what I was working off of.

• Here it is being used by a Madara who was caught by Naruto and Sasuke, and immobilized by Naruto's sealing Jutsu.

Is this substation jutsu or Madara just being able to swap with his Limbo clones?

Madara is not stupid.

Neither is Garou. Him being able to copy chakra and with him randomly gaining knowledge on stuff like time travel and atomic control means he could also find a valid win condition against Madara as well.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Basically:

• Genjutsu: Stuff like mind control / hypnosis
• Sealing: If Garou is stuck in a state where he can't move or resist sealing can be a win con
• Soul Stealing with the Rinnegan

I can agree with that, but my point is that the profiles do not reflect such a thing, which is what I was working off of.

As the guy who implemented the substitution Jutsu into the profiles, I'm telling you its best to ignore the actual abilities listed and focus more on the descriptions as well as the examples I provided. It's not that people disagreed on how the ability functioned, they were just being difficult about listing the word "teleportation" is all.

Is this substation jutsu or Madara just being able to swap with his Limbo clones?

Nah, it's the substitution Jutsu. He did the same thing in the Gaara example, but with a Wood Clone. (Chapters 577 and 674 in case you wanna check them out in context)

Neither is Garou. Him being able to copy chakra and with him randomly gaining knowledge on stuff like time travel and atomic control means he could also find a valid win condition against Madara as well.

I never said he was dumb. I'm just pointing out that Madara can easily just switch his strategies if one doesn't work. If paralysis doesn't work, he'll go for something else.
And also, again, I'm not sure that people put genjutsu's layering into consideration.

 

[TauanVictor]

What is Madara's travel speed?

Tbh the only travel speed achievement was to approach the moon in seconds, but already in his Juubidara form. Idk if it's enough, but Madara has infinite chakra replenishment in his Edo form and can amplify his attributes with chakra, as well as use Shunshin which was described in the databook as an instantaneous displacement.

The Genjutsu he used on randos and on A was to paralyze them and Garou can resist paralysis inducement. Has he ever used complex illusions in the middle of a fight?

No, however, because all his opponents already had prior knowledge of the Genjutsu and could avoid it, or even resist it. Garou don't have that knowledge or resistance of experienced shinobis.

Its not, Chakra is a natural energy source that exists in the world and with animals. Things can be made completely out of chakra as well without a chakra network being mandatory.

If we are to consider it that way, then Madara can avoid the BFR by absorbing any and all of Garou's energy attacks, including the portals.

Which he can only use once or twice unless the Edo Tensai nullifies that weakness.

Yes, he does. Itachi died without both eyes and revived with both in perfect condition in his Edo form.

 

[TauanVictor]

Regen that's not hyperspeed. It still time to come back, especially when every attack utterly obliterates his body.

Madara regenerated almost instantly after having his body entirely crushed by Tengai Shinsei.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Madara regenerated almost instantly after having his body entirely crushed by Tengai Shinsei.

After being blown apart people had enough time to recover and talk before his body restored itself. In a constant fight against an oppoent as fast as he that will casually blow up his body with every hit that's not instant regen.

achievement was to approach the moon in seconds

That was debunked forever ago. His helmet that he ripped off dropped from the sky and landed near Tenten. He didn't fly that far up.

If his travel speed can't be proven then just sending him to Jupiter or a similarly distant planet is a automatic win for Garou.

If we are to consider it that way, then Madara can avoid the BFR by absorbing any and all of Garou's energy attacks, including the portals.

Portals are just openings in space. He needs to get in contact with them to absorb and that isn't required to happen.

Chakra and subspace portals are also different things. Saying Garou can copy chakra is not the same as saying hyperspace portals are the same as chakra.

Itachi died without both eyes and revived with both in perfect condition in his Edo form.

Because Kabuto designed it that way. its why Madara had a bunch of extra powers when he was in his Edo form.

But that's not proving that he wouldn't go blind if he used Izanagi

 

[Kachon123]

Just vaporize the paper with a nuclear explosion

 

[LordGriffin1000]

And also, again, I'm not sure that people put genjutsu's layering into consideration.

Wouldn't Garou just evolve and make said layers useless? Or is that a NLF?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Wouldn't Garou just evolve and make said layers useless? Or is that a NLF?

Definitely sounds NLF-ish to me, unless he's been shown to do something like that before.

 

[Kachon123]

Definitely sounds NLF-ish to me, unless he's been shown to do something like that before.

At the end of the day, layers are just levels of potency. RE increases the potency of whatever ability/stat Garou is evolving in, therefore it should work.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I think a NLF would be assuming he can gain higher dimensional resistance or smurf resistance. Just getting higher resistance to stuff is backed by some other showings, like his heat resistance.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Garou’s limiter is broken so evolving further and further to counter a finite gap is definitely completely available to him

 

[TauanVictor]

After being blown apart people had enough time to recover and talk before his body restored itself. In a constant fight against an oppoent as fast as he that will casually blow up his body with every hit that's not instant regen.

I mean, Juubito blitzed Hashirama and within a few pages he was fully recovered, and Juubito is superior to Edo Hashirama in all aspects. In Naruto, Edo's regeneration speed was never a relevant issue.

That was debunked forever ago. His helmet that he ripped off dropped from the sky and landed near Tenten. He didn't fly that far up.

In which thread was this discussed?

Portals are just openings in space. He needs to get in contact with them to absorb and that isn't required to happen.

My point is that if we assume that Garou can mold chakra, their ability to open portals would be considered a ninjutsu, and by the use of chakra can be absorbed normally. There was no mention of some limit on Rinnegan absorption so Madara is unable to absorb portals, and Madara still has NPI which makes an interaction possible.

Because Kabuto designed it that way. its why Madara had a bunch of extra powers when he was in his Edo form.

But that's not proving that he wouldn't go blind if he used Izanagi

Honestly, I can't see why not. If Edo's regeneration allows you to regenerate from having your body crushed, why would the cornea or retina of the eye be exceptions?

 

[TauanVictor]

I think a NLF would be assuming he can gain higher dimensional resistance or smurf resistance. Just getting higher resistance to stuff is backed by some other showings, like his heat resistance.

16. No Limits Fallacy (NLF): This is when someone states that because something has not demonstrated any limits (or only certain limits) then it has none (or only the ones demonstrated).

In the case, you are claiming that Garou's RE has no limits because it has never been shown to have any beyond Saitama's RE. It probably fits in with NLF.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

In the case, you are claiming that Garou's RE has no limits because it has never been shown to have any beyond Saitama's RE. It probably fits in with NLF.

Nlf means that you have to prove you have no limits
in this case, garou has a broken limiter similar to Saitama, so they actually are some of the few characters who can DEFEAT no limits fallacy
I’m serious, time and time again the whole thing with limiters has been stated, they really do have infinite potential, which is convenient when you can adapt and develop

 

[Kachon123]

In the case, you are claiming that Garou's RE has no limits because it has never been shown to have any beyond Saitama's RE. It probably fits in with NLF.

How is saying that his RE would give him higher resistances when it has done that in the manga NLF?

 

[TauanVictor]

in this case, garou has a broken limiter similar to Saitama, so they actually are some of the few characters who can DEFEAT no limits fallacy

Okay, so answer me this: can your RE adapt to and overcome a Tier 0 HAX?

 

[Kachon123]

Irrelevant to the debate

 

[TauanVictor]

Irrelevant to the debate

How irrelevant if Ziller stated that Garou DEFEATS the NLF?

 

[TauanVictor]

And even used that as a basis to say that Garou can adapt to Genjutsu.

 

[Alexander]

And even used that as a basis to say that Garou can adapt to Genjutsu.

crazy, even garou in his monster state (pre centipede) was put to sleep, and unconsciously managed to beat his master and learn the bang and bomb technique. and all that while he was unconscious, a genjutsu would not be a problem for garou, he simply adapts and that's it, or even if it works, he fights unconscious and continues to defeat madara.