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Golden Frieza vs. Ultra Instinct Goku.
- Thread starter Omegas03
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lolDragomer said:
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the stupidity knows no bounds here lmao.
the fact that normal final form frieza didnt die on contact with ssj broly's fist throws all of that frieza surviving for an hour out of the window. it was a horribly bad written excuse for the failed fusion gag. any1 who actualy uses that as a feat for frieza is a joke. also , why didnt frieza simply beat goku and vegeta in the first place if he is that strong? frieza surviving for one hour vs an bloodlusted broly means golden frieza would be able to drink tea while goku and vegeta throw their strongest atack on him. its bullshit.period. its the equaliant of base goku clashing his fist with a broly that just tanked a punch from ssjg vegeta. UI goku destroys him.
the fact that normal final form frieza didnt die on contact with ssj broly's fist throws all of that frieza surviving for an hour out of the window. it was a horribly bad written excuse for the failed fusion gag. any1 who actualy uses that as a feat for frieza is a joke. also , why didnt frieza simply beat goku and vegeta in the first place if he is that strong? frieza surviving for one hour vs an bloodlusted broly means golden frieza would be able to drink tea while goku and vegeta throw their strongest atack on him. its bullshit.period. its the equaliant of base goku clashing his fist with a broly that just tanked a punch from ssjg vegeta. UI goku destroys him.
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While I agree with you that Goku wins, you don't have to be so confrontational, buddy.
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KKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta both exist. Kaio-Ken Blue and SSBE (Or MSSB depending on who you ask) exists in the manga. Frieza also has no indication of whether or not Goku can use UI and had zero interest in Vegeta's status as a potential threat until he witnessed Gogeta.
The only point you make that's actually worth discussing is Broly not instantly killing Frieza's base form, which is a blatant outlier (akin to Goku not instantly dying to Broly in base or how the novel and movie both depict SS Goku as somehow being comparable to Wrath Broly, despite Wrath Broly being powerful enough to make SSG Vegeta nervous).
I could point to the simple fact that Frieza consistently scales to SSG-levels of power (Refer to the ToP where Base Frieza scales to Dyspo who scales to SSG Goku or Base Frieza who scales to handling Mystic Gohan briefly who scales to having fought SSB Goku briefly and Dyspo or even the RoF arc, where Goku had absorbed the power of SSG into base, which was arguably retconned in the ToP in the anime). So the gap between base Frieza and Broly isn't nearly as large as it appears at first.
Of course, it's not like Frieza doesn't have bizarre scaling in Super. He scales perfectly to SSB Goku in speed and power but then Golden Frieza can dodge or block all of Dyspo's attacks, Base Frieza can tank all of Toppo's attacks and Base Frieza could also knock Jiren away with a kick. You can argue that Toppo was holding back (due to the rulings) but I can't picture how Base Frieza could even remotely kick Jiren away, even if Jiren didn't expect him.
Overall, Frieza's base form should roughly scale to around (likely above) SSG Goku and his Golden is stronger than Blue in multiplier. He would likely be a match for Post-ToP KKX20 Goku.
Before you say Goku fled, Frieza couldn't hurt Broly even remotely in over an hour of constant fighting. He could slow Broly down and knock him away when transforming into Golden but not much else. He has also always had vastly superior endurance to Goku whereas Goku would have to contend with Kaio-Ken strain and would do absolutely nothing to Broly.
So, overall? Your only argument here would equate to a (likely) SSG-level base Frieza tanking Broly for less than a minute. Certainly an outlier but nowhere near as gross as people would assume, at first.
The only point you make that's actually worth discussing is Broly not instantly killing Frieza's base form, which is a blatant outlier (akin to Goku not instantly dying to Broly in base or how the novel and movie both depict SS Goku as somehow being comparable to Wrath Broly, despite Wrath Broly being powerful enough to make SSG Vegeta nervous).
I could point to the simple fact that Frieza consistently scales to SSG-levels of power (Refer to the ToP where Base Frieza scales to Dyspo who scales to SSG Goku or Base Frieza who scales to handling Mystic Gohan briefly who scales to having fought SSB Goku briefly and Dyspo or even the RoF arc, where Goku had absorbed the power of SSG into base, which was arguably retconned in the ToP in the anime). So the gap between base Frieza and Broly isn't nearly as large as it appears at first.
Of course, it's not like Frieza doesn't have bizarre scaling in Super. He scales perfectly to SSB Goku in speed and power but then Golden Frieza can dodge or block all of Dyspo's attacks, Base Frieza can tank all of Toppo's attacks and Base Frieza could also knock Jiren away with a kick. You can argue that Toppo was holding back (due to the rulings) but I can't picture how Base Frieza could even remotely kick Jiren away, even if Jiren didn't expect him.
Overall, Frieza's base form should roughly scale to around (likely above) SSG Goku and his Golden is stronger than Blue in multiplier. He would likely be a match for Post-ToP KKX20 Goku.
Before you say Goku fled, Frieza couldn't hurt Broly even remotely in over an hour of constant fighting. He could slow Broly down and knock him away when transforming into Golden but not much else. He has also always had vastly superior endurance to Goku whereas Goku would have to contend with Kaio-Ken strain and would do absolutely nothing to Broly.
So, overall? Your only argument here would equate to a (likely) SSG-level base Frieza tanking Broly for less than a minute. Certainly an outlier but nowhere near as gross as people would assume, at first.
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KKX20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta both exist. Kaio-Ken Blue and SSBE (Or MSSB depending on who you ask) exists in the manga. Frieza also has no indication of whether or not Goku can use UI and had zero interest in Vegeta's status as a potential threat until he witnessed Gogeta.
The only point you make that's actually worth discussing is Broly not instantly killing Frieza's base form, which is a blatant outlier (akin to Goku not instantly dying to Broly in base or how the novel and movie both depict SS Goku as somehow being comparable to Wrath Broly, despite Wrath Broly being powerful enough to make SSG Vegeta nervous).
I could point to the simple fact that Frieza consistently scales to SSG-levels of power (Refer to the ToP where Base Frieza scales to Dyspo who scales to SSG Goku or Base Frieza who scales to handling Mystic Gohan briefly who scales to having fought SSB Goku briefly and Dyspo or even the RoF arc, where Goku had absorbed the power of SSG into base, which was arguably retconned in the ToP in the anime). So the gap between base Frieza and Broly isn't nearly as large as it appears at first.
Of course, it's not like Frieza doesn't have bizarre scaling in Super. He scales perfectly to SSB Goku in speed and power but then Golden Frieza can dodge or block all of Dyspo's attacks, Base Frieza can tank all of Toppo's attacks and Base Frieza could also knock Jiren away with a kick. You can argue that Toppo was holding back (due to the rulings) but I can't picture how Base Frieza could even remotely kick Jiren away, even if Jiren didn't expect him.
Overall, Frieza's base form should roughly scale to around (likely above) SSG Goku and his Golden is stronger than Blue in multiplier. He would likely be a match for Post-ToP KKX20 Goku.
Before you say Goku fled, Frieza couldn't hurt Broly even remotely in over an hour of constant fighting. He could slow Broly down and knock him away when transforming into Golden but not much else. He has also always had vastly superior endurance to Goku whereas Goku would have to contend with Kaio-Ken strain and would do absolutely nothing to Broly.
So, overall? Your only argument here would equate to a (likely) SSG-level base Frieza tanking Broly for less than a minute. Certainly an outlier but nowhere near as gross as people would assume, at first.
so basicly bullshit.
The only point you make that's actually worth discussing is Broly not instantly killing Frieza's base form, which is a blatant outlier (akin to Goku not instantly dying to Broly in base or how the novel and movie both depict SS Goku as somehow being comparable to Wrath Broly, despite Wrath Broly being powerful enough to make SSG Vegeta nervous).
I could point to the simple fact that Frieza consistently scales to SSG-levels of power (Refer to the ToP where Base Frieza scales to Dyspo who scales to SSG Goku or Base Frieza who scales to handling Mystic Gohan briefly who scales to having fought SSB Goku briefly and Dyspo or even the RoF arc, where Goku had absorbed the power of SSG into base, which was arguably retconned in the ToP in the anime). So the gap between base Frieza and Broly isn't nearly as large as it appears at first.
Of course, it's not like Frieza doesn't have bizarre scaling in Super. He scales perfectly to SSB Goku in speed and power but then Golden Frieza can dodge or block all of Dyspo's attacks, Base Frieza can tank all of Toppo's attacks and Base Frieza could also knock Jiren away with a kick. You can argue that Toppo was holding back (due to the rulings) but I can't picture how Base Frieza could even remotely kick Jiren away, even if Jiren didn't expect him.
Overall, Frieza's base form should roughly scale to around (likely above) SSG Goku and his Golden is stronger than Blue in multiplier. He would likely be a match for Post-ToP KKX20 Goku.
Before you say Goku fled, Frieza couldn't hurt Broly even remotely in over an hour of constant fighting. He could slow Broly down and knock him away when transforming into Golden but not much else. He has also always had vastly superior endurance to Goku whereas Goku would have to contend with Kaio-Ken strain and would do absolutely nothing to Broly.
So, overall? Your only argument here would equate to a (likely) SSG-level base Frieza tanking Broly for less than a minute. Certainly an outlier but nowhere near as gross as people would assume, at first.
so basicly bullshit.
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1. Don't quote massive walls of text. You only need to quote the name.Hazardsan said:
2. No counter-argument made.
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You quoted THAT much and that's all you responded with?
Begone
Begone
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what counter argument? nothing you said needs to be countered becouse nothing you said excuses frieza surviving for an hour in the slightest.
even if broly was only 2 times stronger than golden frieza , according to db logic broly should have Ko'd or killed frieza a long time ago , i can see him surviving alittle beat if broly didnt give his best to ko or kill him but for one whole hour? the basis of the whole scene doesnt make sense from beginning to the end. i.e horribly written way to show the unnecessary fusion fail gag. imagin goku turning ssj2 on namek instead ssj , goku literaly would be able kill frieza with a punch , higher endurence is irrelevant when some1 is >>>>> you. lets even say broly is only 1.5 times stronger than frieza. still wont make sense unless broly didnt want to kill or KO him which makes this thread pointless becouse if broly doesnt want goku or vegeta to die or get Ko'd they could have survived for one hour , too.
in the end of the day if broly actualy tried to kill frieza and failed trying for an hour that means broly would be barely stronger becouse a higher diffrence than 1.5 would have resulted in frieza dieing. ssj goku o namek who was like only 20% stronger than frieza didnt even need 5 mins to realise he could kill frieza and even turned back to base. now imagin friezas full power was actualy his 50% ? would you think ssj after one hour of beating frieza he cant kill or Ko him? goku on namek was only 20% stronger than frieza yet could kill him in five means if he actualy wanted proven by future trunks. frieza's endurence is headcanon btw atleast the endurence some fans try to argue. trunks easiely killed a frieza who was stated to be even stronger than on namek iirc and future trunks was more or less on gokus ssj level back then. so yh, in short basicly bullshit.
even if broly was only 2 times stronger than golden frieza , according to db logic broly should have Ko'd or killed frieza a long time ago , i can see him surviving alittle beat if broly didnt give his best to ko or kill him but for one whole hour? the basis of the whole scene doesnt make sense from beginning to the end. i.e horribly written way to show the unnecessary fusion fail gag. imagin goku turning ssj2 on namek instead ssj , goku literaly would be able kill frieza with a punch , higher endurence is irrelevant when some1 is >>>>> you. lets even say broly is only 1.5 times stronger than frieza. still wont make sense unless broly didnt want to kill or KO him which makes this thread pointless becouse if broly doesnt want goku or vegeta to die or get Ko'd they could have survived for one hour , too.
in the end of the day if broly actualy tried to kill frieza and failed trying for an hour that means broly would be barely stronger becouse a higher diffrence than 1.5 would have resulted in frieza dieing. ssj goku o namek who was like only 20% stronger than frieza didnt even need 5 mins to realise he could kill frieza and even turned back to base. now imagin friezas full power was actualy his 50% ? would you think ssj after one hour of beating frieza he cant kill or Ko him? goku on namek was only 20% stronger than frieza yet could kill him in five means if he actualy wanted proven by future trunks. frieza's endurence is headcanon btw atleast the endurence some fans try to argue. trunks easiely killed a frieza who was stated to be even stronger than on namek iirc and future trunks was more or less on gokus ssj level back then. so yh, in short basicly bullshit.
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even if broly was only 2 times stronger than golden frieza , according to db logic broly should have Ko'd or killed frieza a long time ago
Frieza has survived far worse. It takes him being vaporised to die. You could argue him being KO'd but, logically, speaking, who is to say Frieza isn't simply above half of Broly's power?
i can see him surviving alittle beat if broly didnt give his best to ko or kill him but for one whole hour?
Frieza survived being bisected, blown up by Goku, blown up with Namek and floating in space for multiple days. If Broly isn't blowing Frieza apart and Frieza's stamina isn't getting screwed (like it was on Namek) then...I don't see how Frieza is going to die here. The only times Frieza has died is Trunks (who was far more powerful) atomising him and Goku, who was in SSB and using Super Kamehameha against a heavily exhausted base Frieza that was beaten badly by Vegeta Blue.
Frieza's endurance and overall survivalbility has always been ridiculous.
gher endurence is irrelevant when some1 is >>>>> you.
No, no it isn't.
still wont make sense unless broly didnt want to kill or KO him
Broly didn't seem to be aiming to kill anyone but the novel (which is considered canon on the wiki) makes it clear that he stopped attacking Frieza after Frieza could no longer fight back. In other words, Broly wasn't aiming to kill but was perfectly fine with beating a person to the point of immobility (see SSG Goku nearly dying from Broly and Broly ceasing to attack when Goku could no longer move).
which makes this thread pointless becouse if broly doesnt want goku or vegeta to die or get Ko'd they could have survived for one hour
Broly mercilessly tore through all of Goku and Vegeta's attacks and caused Goku to flee with Vegeta, with the both of them clearly being heavily exhausted. The gap between Goku and Vegeta in Blue, vs Broly, would also be around 50x...whereas Frieza vs Broly is reasonably a gap of 2.5x. Goku's only method of handling Broly would be going X20, which would strain Goku's body heavily overtime and have no effect (considering Frieza couldn't even hurt Broly slightly). Vegeta is stated numerous times to be inferior to Goku and scaling (questionable as it is) seems to indicate Vegeta is much weaker than Goku.
ssj goku o namek who was like only 20% stronger than frieza didnt even need 5 mins to realise he could kill frieza and even turned back to base.
Frieza was power-weighted. His stamina, and therefore power, was being rapidly drained. I also don't recall Goku ever going back to base against Frieza even ONCE.
now imagin friezas full power was actualy his 50% ? would you think ssj after one hour of beating frieza he cant kill or Ko him? goku on namek was only 20% stronger than frieza yet could kill him in five means if he actualy wanted proven by future trunks.
Potentially, yes. Considering SS Goku couldn't even kill a heavily weakened, bisected, Frieza with an energy blast and Frieza then survived being blown up with Namek and floating in space for several days.
Are you implying Goku didn't grow any stronger in an entire year? You seem to forget that Future Goku defeated King Cold and Mecha Frieza combined so it's quite clear there is a considerable gap. Future Trunks objectively curbstomped both King Cold and Mecha Frieza and was then shown to be inferior to Goku. It's a scaling chain of Goku > Trunks >> King Cold + Mecha Frieza and the gaps in the chain aren't even quantifable, as we have no measuring stick for how strong Goku was, after a year.
frieza's endurence is headcanon btw
haha what?
Frieza has survived far worse. It takes him being vaporised to die. You could argue him being KO'd but, logically, speaking, who is to say Frieza isn't simply above half of Broly's power?
i can see him surviving alittle beat if broly didnt give his best to ko or kill him but for one whole hour?
Frieza survived being bisected, blown up by Goku, blown up with Namek and floating in space for multiple days. If Broly isn't blowing Frieza apart and Frieza's stamina isn't getting screwed (like it was on Namek) then...I don't see how Frieza is going to die here. The only times Frieza has died is Trunks (who was far more powerful) atomising him and Goku, who was in SSB and using Super Kamehameha against a heavily exhausted base Frieza that was beaten badly by Vegeta Blue.
Frieza's endurance and overall survivalbility has always been ridiculous.
gher endurence is irrelevant when some1 is >>>>> you.
No, no it isn't.
still wont make sense unless broly didnt want to kill or KO him
Broly didn't seem to be aiming to kill anyone but the novel (which is considered canon on the wiki) makes it clear that he stopped attacking Frieza after Frieza could no longer fight back. In other words, Broly wasn't aiming to kill but was perfectly fine with beating a person to the point of immobility (see SSG Goku nearly dying from Broly and Broly ceasing to attack when Goku could no longer move).
which makes this thread pointless becouse if broly doesnt want goku or vegeta to die or get Ko'd they could have survived for one hour
Broly mercilessly tore through all of Goku and Vegeta's attacks and caused Goku to flee with Vegeta, with the both of them clearly being heavily exhausted. The gap between Goku and Vegeta in Blue, vs Broly, would also be around 50x...whereas Frieza vs Broly is reasonably a gap of 2.5x. Goku's only method of handling Broly would be going X20, which would strain Goku's body heavily overtime and have no effect (considering Frieza couldn't even hurt Broly slightly). Vegeta is stated numerous times to be inferior to Goku and scaling (questionable as it is) seems to indicate Vegeta is much weaker than Goku.
ssj goku o namek who was like only 20% stronger than frieza didnt even need 5 mins to realise he could kill frieza and even turned back to base.
Frieza was power-weighted. His stamina, and therefore power, was being rapidly drained. I also don't recall Goku ever going back to base against Frieza even ONCE.
now imagin friezas full power was actualy his 50% ? would you think ssj after one hour of beating frieza he cant kill or Ko him? goku on namek was only 20% stronger than frieza yet could kill him in five means if he actualy wanted proven by future trunks.
Potentially, yes. Considering SS Goku couldn't even kill a heavily weakened, bisected, Frieza with an energy blast and Frieza then survived being blown up with Namek and floating in space for several days.
Are you implying Goku didn't grow any stronger in an entire year? You seem to forget that Future Goku defeated King Cold and Mecha Frieza combined so it's quite clear there is a considerable gap. Future Trunks objectively curbstomped both King Cold and Mecha Frieza and was then shown to be inferior to Goku. It's a scaling chain of Goku > Trunks >> King Cold + Mecha Frieza and the gaps in the chain aren't even quantifable, as we have no measuring stick for how strong Goku was, after a year.
frieza's endurence is headcanon btw
haha what?
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>frieza's endurance is headcanon
Frieza got bisected, and still managed to survive SSJ Goku's Angry Kamehameha and being at the center of Namek's explosion
after that he survived getting cut into slices by Trunks(he died from being atomized)
and in Super, he tanked and controlled Sidra's hakai energy and survived Toppo's Hakai(and even after that, the dude had suficient stamina to transform into Golden Frieza, twice)
he also survived being brutilized by a bloodlusted SSJ Broly, and just brushed off the damage like it was no big deal(he is so durable that he didn't go out of Golden)
i'm pretty sure it's not headcanon
Frieza got bisected, and still managed to survive SSJ Goku's Angry Kamehameha and being at the center of Namek's explosion
after that he survived getting cut into slices by Trunks(he died from being atomized)
and in Super, he tanked and controlled Sidra's hakai energy and survived Toppo's Hakai(and even after that, the dude had suficient stamina to transform into Golden Frieza, twice)
he also survived being brutilized by a bloodlusted SSJ Broly, and just brushed off the damage like it was no big deal(he is so durable that he didn't go out of Golden)
i'm pretty sure it's not headcanon
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We don't actually consider Frieza being atomized by Trunks. Also Frieza survived a lot of that bs on Namek because Goku gave him energy. It was heavily implied he would've simply bled out if Goku didn't. Plus Frieza was certainly incapacitated and out cold after Namek's explosion until King Cold found him. Also, Frieza being diced up did kill him. RoF implies that Frieza would only shortly be alive after being brought back because he came in pieces. Also keep in mind he died to far less BS in RoF than it took from his original skirmish.
Though yes, Frieza is probably the most durable DB character that doesn't have Regenerationn.
Though yes, Frieza is probably the most durable DB character that doesn't have Regenerationn.
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Freeza has the obvious edge in stamina, UI canonically only lasts a couple of minutes at most,so unless he has such a massive advantage that he can finish the battle in seconds Goku is screwed as the post UI drop in power forces him to slowly regain his energy starting from base.
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@Cryo
You said that Final Form Frieza is about equal to SSJG Goku
and then you said that Golden Frieza surpasses SSGSS in multiplier
how does this make sense
You said that Final Form Frieza is about equal to SSJG Goku
and then you said that Golden Frieza surpasses SSGSS in multiplier
how does this make sense
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Uh...IDK? Maybe the entire existence of RoF where the Movie version has Base Frieza and Base Goku being complete equals or Base Frieza being weaker than Base Goku but both versions have Golden Frieza with a considerable edge in power over Blue Goku?Mickey1940 said:
Bear in mind that I am going at this with the perspective of Beyond God as having been a thing back then. Beyond God being SSG with no visual change.
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You'd have to explain. How was Frieza not atomised by Future Trunks after being sliced into chunks then vaporised?The real cal howard said:
Yeah, Goku gave Frieza energy but if you take a simple look it's pretty clear Goku only gave Frieza a casual, tiny, bit of his Ki and Frieza then expended it on a huge energy wave, that Goku promptly overpowered with nearly zero effort. So are you saying Goku's tiny bit of Ki was enough for Frieza to expend most of it but magically be sustained for several days, after being blown into Namek, blown up with Namek and then left in space for several days with no assistance?
You'd have to refer me to where RoF implied Frieza would eventually die, when in pieces. I don't seem to recall it ever being implied.
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This is based off interviews (Goku nearing the level of gods, Vegeta trying to catch up), scaling (SSG Vegeta being afraid of Broly but SS Goku matching Broly) and multiple sources to support it (Movie and Novel both support SS Goku matching Broly despite Broly overpowering SSG Vegeta).Ovrhide said:
Pretty sure the wiki doesn't really accept the scaling due to the gap being so absurd though.
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a 2.5x gap is enough to one shot in db.
how does the fact that its stated in the novel make it somehow make more sense? its irrelevant if its canon or not. so broly didnt try to kill him , fine. did he try tp KO him?
if no , than how exactly does this put frieza on UI level? or even on goku and vegetas level? if yes , its bullshit.period.
go read the manga he beat him and turned back to base before the kienzen thing.
it was not even a year and back then the power increases were not that big. assuming future trunks or goku post namek are more than 2 times stronger than frieza is far fetched considering what gains they made after that with even better training and longer training.
lmao did you imply a 50% frieza could survive ssj goku for an hour when 100% frieza was beaten and was stated by goku that he could have kill him right there in less than 5 mins? and when future trunks easiely killing him when he was even stronger?
yh, sry but you are exactly like the ppl i said that overrate frieza's endurence.
yes , its headcanon as i just proved it. vegeta survived so much vs goku yet was easiely beaten by zarbon who was at best 2 times stronger than him.
nothing else you said helps you trying to make sense of it. it is what it is. a horribly written excuse for the fusion gag , being written in the novel wont make it somehow logical.
how does the fact that its stated in the novel make it somehow make more sense? its irrelevant if its canon or not. so broly didnt try to kill him , fine. did he try tp KO him?
if no , than how exactly does this put frieza on UI level? or even on goku and vegetas level? if yes , its bullshit.period.
go read the manga he beat him and turned back to base before the kienzen thing.
it was not even a year and back then the power increases were not that big. assuming future trunks or goku post namek are more than 2 times stronger than frieza is far fetched considering what gains they made after that with even better training and longer training.
lmao did you imply a 50% frieza could survive ssj goku for an hour when 100% frieza was beaten and was stated by goku that he could have kill him right there in less than 5 mins? and when future trunks easiely killing him when he was even stronger?
yh, sry but you are exactly like the ppl i said that overrate frieza's endurence.
yes , its headcanon as i just proved it. vegeta survived so much vs goku yet was easiely beaten by zarbon who was at best 2 times stronger than him.
nothing else you said helps you trying to make sense of it. it is what it is. a horribly written excuse for the fusion gag , being written in the novel wont make it somehow logical.
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"a 2.5x gap is enough to one shot in db."
I said the gap could be less than 2x.
"how does the fact that its stated in the novel make it somehow make more sense? its irrelevant if its canon or not. so broly didnt try to kill him , fine. did he try tp KO him?"
Yes? You can look at Broly beating SSG Goku to the point of being unable to move in mere moments. Why would Broly change his disposition with Frieza?
"if no , than how exactly does this put frieza on UI level? or even on goku and vegetas level? if yes , its bullshit.period."
Hmm...I wonder if the entire thread is filled with people saying Frieza ISN'T UI-level but scales to a high enough level to survive UI? Hmm I wonder if there are statements putting Pre-UIO3 SSB Goku above UIO1 Goku and statements putting SSBE Vegeta at 20x SSB and matching someone who stomped Frieza in under a minute...I wonder if Super Saiyan is accepted as 50x on the wiki...
Golly, it's almost as if Broly is at least several times the power of the Toppo that reasonably scales to UIO2 Goku.
I wonder how Frieza could POSSIBLY scale above Goku and Vegeta for tanking someone 50x their power for over an hour straight...
"go read the manga he beat him and turned back to base before the kienzen thing."
Funny. It's almost as if he went Super Saiyan as soon as he could react to Frieza flubbing his control over the disk.
it was not even a year and back then the power increases were not that big. assuming future trunks or goku post namek are more than 2 times stronger than frieza is far fetched considering what gains they made after that with even better training and longer training.
Ah yes. Dragon Ball, the franchise with reasonable gains from training. How could I be so deluded to think Goku and Gohan surpassed Vegeta with just half their power in the span of a single year? How in the world could I be so deluded to think Goku became dozens of times stronger in a year, a dozen in a month or, god forbid, 33x stronger in the span of a single day?
"lmao did you imply a 50% frieza could survive ssj goku for an hour when 100% frieza was beaten and was stated by goku that he could have kill him right there in less than 5 mins? and when future trunks easiely killing him when he was even stronger?"
Wow...I can't believe I was wrong that Frieza's 100% power state rapidly drains his stamina or that Frieza was already half-dead from tanking a Spirit Bomb.
"yes , its headcanon as i just proved it."
No-pe~
I probably won't respond to you after this. As, I'm sure anyone reading can tell, I'm being overly sarcastic due to your points being ridiculously flawed. Arguing with someone, that I respect so little, would lead to...going off-topic.
I said the gap could be less than 2x.
"how does the fact that its stated in the novel make it somehow make more sense? its irrelevant if its canon or not. so broly didnt try to kill him , fine. did he try tp KO him?"
Yes? You can look at Broly beating SSG Goku to the point of being unable to move in mere moments. Why would Broly change his disposition with Frieza?
"if no , than how exactly does this put frieza on UI level? or even on goku and vegetas level? if yes , its bullshit.period."
Hmm...I wonder if the entire thread is filled with people saying Frieza ISN'T UI-level but scales to a high enough level to survive UI? Hmm I wonder if there are statements putting Pre-UIO3 SSB Goku above UIO1 Goku and statements putting SSBE Vegeta at 20x SSB and matching someone who stomped Frieza in under a minute...I wonder if Super Saiyan is accepted as 50x on the wiki...
Golly, it's almost as if Broly is at least several times the power of the Toppo that reasonably scales to UIO2 Goku.
I wonder how Frieza could POSSIBLY scale above Goku and Vegeta for tanking someone 50x their power for over an hour straight...
"go read the manga he beat him and turned back to base before the kienzen thing."
Funny. It's almost as if he went Super Saiyan as soon as he could react to Frieza flubbing his control over the disk.
it was not even a year and back then the power increases were not that big. assuming future trunks or goku post namek are more than 2 times stronger than frieza is far fetched considering what gains they made after that with even better training and longer training.
Ah yes. Dragon Ball, the franchise with reasonable gains from training. How could I be so deluded to think Goku and Gohan surpassed Vegeta with just half their power in the span of a single year? How in the world could I be so deluded to think Goku became dozens of times stronger in a year, a dozen in a month or, god forbid, 33x stronger in the span of a single day?
"lmao did you imply a 50% frieza could survive ssj goku for an hour when 100% frieza was beaten and was stated by goku that he could have kill him right there in less than 5 mins? and when future trunks easiely killing him when he was even stronger?"
Wow...I can't believe I was wrong that Frieza's 100% power state rapidly drains his stamina or that Frieza was already half-dead from tanking a Spirit Bomb.
"yes , its headcanon as i just proved it."
No-pe~
I probably won't respond to you after this. As, I'm sure anyone reading can tell, I'm being overly sarcastic due to your points being ridiculously flawed. Arguing with someone, that I respect so little, would lead to...going off-topic.
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now show me some1 surviving vs some1 who is even 1.3x stronger for an hour.
its bullshit, and no argument you have is gonna change it.
nothig implies goku made huge gains in the time future trunks arrived. and nothing implies the diffrence between namek ssj goku and future trunks is big or even if there is a diffrence. you are assuming. gains are entirely based on plot and how toriyama feels like. they are not consistent. we saw what vegeta can survive in the saiyan saga yet zarbon who was not even 2x stronger could handle him easiely. broly should have done to frieza what zarbon did to vegeta. so again , horribly written excuse.
the broly movie is toriyama'a canon. there was no ssbe or kaioken or mastered ssb. it ignored the anime and the manga as in both meduims they habe stronger forms than ssb which was used in the movie. nothing of what you said applys to the movie as toriyama straight up ignored the forms to the point he didnt even bother atleast making them a statement about them being no help. you must be crazy to believe toriyama actualy considered everything you posted about UIO1 and 3 and whatever. it was a bad excuse for the fusion gag , broly being stronger than frieza makes the whole one hour thing bullshit by default. wether he is 1.5x or 2x stronger.
broly couldnt even one shot base or ssj goku when he was strong enough to tank a punch from ssjg. call this outlier which makes frieza surviving for one hour an outlier by default. im not even arguing if frieza can survive at all, but for an hour which is already without the fusion gag excuse going against the basis of how db works makes it even more obviouse it was a badly written excuse in a movie who would be forgetable movie without the epic fights and animation. cell was > teen ssj gohan , ssj2 gohan could one shot him. its a 2x increase which makes ssj2 teen gohan less than 2x stronger than cell. dont reply, your argument literaly dont make it any less bullshit.
its bullshit, and no argument you have is gonna change it.
nothig implies goku made huge gains in the time future trunks arrived. and nothing implies the diffrence between namek ssj goku and future trunks is big or even if there is a diffrence. you are assuming. gains are entirely based on plot and how toriyama feels like. they are not consistent. we saw what vegeta can survive in the saiyan saga yet zarbon who was not even 2x stronger could handle him easiely. broly should have done to frieza what zarbon did to vegeta. so again , horribly written excuse.
the broly movie is toriyama'a canon. there was no ssbe or kaioken or mastered ssb. it ignored the anime and the manga as in both meduims they habe stronger forms than ssb which was used in the movie. nothing of what you said applys to the movie as toriyama straight up ignored the forms to the point he didnt even bother atleast making them a statement about them being no help. you must be crazy to believe toriyama actualy considered everything you posted about UIO1 and 3 and whatever. it was a bad excuse for the fusion gag , broly being stronger than frieza makes the whole one hour thing bullshit by default. wether he is 1.5x or 2x stronger.
broly couldnt even one shot base or ssj goku when he was strong enough to tank a punch from ssjg. call this outlier which makes frieza surviving for one hour an outlier by default. im not even arguing if frieza can survive at all, but for an hour which is already without the fusion gag excuse going against the basis of how db works makes it even more obviouse it was a badly written excuse in a movie who would be forgetable movie without the epic fights and animation. cell was > teen ssj gohan , ssj2 gohan could one shot him. its a 2x increase which makes ssj2 teen gohan less than 2x stronger than cell. dont reply, your argument literaly dont make it any less bullshit.
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Hazardan, could you lovingly pipe down with your attitude? Calling someone's counter argument bullshit so freely ain't gonna give you any points.
Anyway, my vote goes to Frieza.
Anyway, my vote goes to Frieza.
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You'd have to explain. How was Frieza not atomised by Future Trunks after being sliced into chunks then vaporised?
- Because Buu. DB characters can't atomize.
- If Frieza would've bled out on Namek then yes, I'd very much make that jump.
- Shenron outright said it iirc.
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Because Buu. DB characters can't atomize.
What about Cell?
If Frieza would've bled out on Namek then yes, I'd very much make that jump.
Wait, so you are saying that Frieza would somehow prevent blood loss, over the course of days in space, by simply having some energy that he mostly, if not entirely, wasted?
Shenron outright said it iirc.
Honestly, I'm a bit too tired to check for a source. I don't recall this but my memory is obviously flawed. I don't suppose anyone else can provide source?
What about Cell?
If Frieza would've bled out on Namek then yes, I'd very much make that jump.
Wait, so you are saying that Frieza would somehow prevent blood loss, over the course of days in space, by simply having some energy that he mostly, if not entirely, wasted?
Shenron outright said it iirc.
Honestly, I'm a bit too tired to check for a source. I don't recall this but my memory is obviously flawed. I don't suppose anyone else can provide source?
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Its when they try to revive Frieza and he says something about he'll be brought back in pieces. Then someone suggests the Regenerationn chamber.
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Don't know. I've only seen the movie. Only recap episode I've seen was ep. 12.
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Idk what this thread is becoming now, but 129 UIO Goku is beerus level, FP ssj Broly is far above ssj gogeta, but just probably above beerus. Ssj gogeta is stronger than regular ssj broly. Who beat the living crap out of golden freeza. The answer is pretty clear. Golden freeza gets stomped by anyone on beerus's level.
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@Ovr I have this odd and funny sensation you really didn't read literally anything of what Cryo said.
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Proof that SSJ Gogeta > Beerus?Ovrhide said:
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Broly's never been stated anywhere to be > Limit Breaker JirenJooCipher said:
Frieza's statement can be translated many ways
also Frieza can't sense God Ki
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Frieza refers to Broly as too powerful for anyone to defeat. Frieza has ambushed Jiren in both the manga and anime and there is no evidence that Jiren uses God Ki. It's overall up-to personal interpretation if Frieza was awake to sense LB Jiren or not in the anime. He definitely sensed Jiren in the manga though.Mickey1940 said:
Also, Frieza has sensed Goku Blue and seemingly sensed destruction energy.
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Frieza didn't sense SSGSS Goku last I checked. At least there was no direct showings of him saying so.
If Frieza could sense Hakai, then why did he tank a Low 2C Hakai which was capable of (and actually did) one shot him?
I never said anything about Frieza not sensing Jiren. The problem is that he's never sensed GoDs and other deities, so he can't scale their power to them.
some translation simply say "What a marvelous battle power!". Some specify that he is indeed too powerful to beat. It's confusing to know which one is accurate. Plus, at the end of the movie GOKu said that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, while LB Jiren and MUI Goku were outright stated to be so, so at the very least Broly should be comparable to them.
If Frieza could sense Hakai, then why did he tank a Low 2C Hakai which was capable of (and actually did) one shot him?
I never said anything about Frieza not sensing Jiren. The problem is that he's never sensed GoDs and other deities, so he can't scale their power to them.
some translation simply say "What a marvelous battle power!". Some specify that he is indeed too powerful to beat. It's confusing to know which one is accurate. Plus, at the end of the movie GOKu said that Broly MIGHT be stronger than Beerus, while LB Jiren and MUI Goku were outright stated to be so, so at the very least Broly should be comparable to them.
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"Frieza didn't sense SSGSS Goku last I checked. At least there was no direct showings of him saying so."
See image.
"If Frieza could sense Hakai, then why did he tank a Low 2C Hakai which was capable of (and actually did) one shot him?"
Why does Frieza do many of the things he does? You can chalk it up to arrogance. Or maybe Frieza can sense Hakai but not gauge its strength. Alternatively, he has absurd sensory ability on a physical level to detect a Hakai sphere. IIRC Frieza specifically states it's energy from a god after controlling it and getting the chance to feel it so it's likely that he couldn't actually gauge it but could detect its presence.
"some translation simply say "What a marvelous battle power!". Some specify that he is indeed too powerful to beat. "
No. That's only what he says in the movie. I am referring to the novel, which has Frieza say "What marvelous power!" and then monologue about how Broly is too powerful to defeat. You are referring to two completely different statements.
"while LB Jiren and MUI Goku were outright stated to be so"
No. The only thing to even imply they surpass Beerus is a single magazine scan that 'quotes' Beerus as saying Goku 'possibly' surpasses him. It has never been outright stated that they surpass him.
See image.
"If Frieza could sense Hakai, then why did he tank a Low 2C Hakai which was capable of (and actually did) one shot him?"
Why does Frieza do many of the things he does? You can chalk it up to arrogance. Or maybe Frieza can sense Hakai but not gauge its strength. Alternatively, he has absurd sensory ability on a physical level to detect a Hakai sphere. IIRC Frieza specifically states it's energy from a god after controlling it and getting the chance to feel it so it's likely that he couldn't actually gauge it but could detect its presence.
"some translation simply say "What a marvelous battle power!". Some specify that he is indeed too powerful to beat. "
No. That's only what he says in the movie. I am referring to the novel, which has Frieza say "What marvelous power!" and then monologue about how Broly is too powerful to defeat. You are referring to two completely different statements.
"while LB Jiren and MUI Goku were outright stated to be so"
No. The only thing to even imply they surpass Beerus is a single magazine scan that 'quotes' Beerus as saying Goku 'possibly' surpasses him. It has never been outright stated that they surpass him.
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