Golden Frieza vs. Ultra Instinct Goku.

[ABoogieYesSir]

Yeah Bonus Round, MUI should just blitz Frieza.

 

[Dragomer]

I mean, yeah Freezer tanked Broly for an hour but it seems pretty obvious Broly just wanted to maul him, not kill him, since he stopped paying attention to Freezer once he stopped moving.

So i doubt it can be used as an argument for him outlasting UI, though the scale between UI and Broly is unclear at best.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

The main uncertainty stems from Frieza's statements in the novel. There is no doubt that Frieza is much stronger than SSB Goku but we don't know how strong SSB Goku would be currently, or how SS Broly scales.

SSB Goku was already surpassing UIO1 Goku after the second UIO and SSB Goku, after the first UIO, was capable of briefly keeping up with someone comparable to the Spirit Bomb (Kefla) despite being heavily exhausted.

Spirit Bomb should be considerably stronger than Pre-UIO1 KKX20 Goku so we can ascertain that Post-UIO1 Goku is dozens of times stronger. Post-UIO2 would be much stronger than that, potentially dozens, so with that pattern you would think Post-UIO3 would surpass UIO2 Goku and that Post-MUI would be somewhere between UIO2 and UIO3.

Post-UIO1 SSB Goku =/> SSBKKX20 Spirit Bomb (Likely much higher due to being heavily exhausted)

Post-UIO2 SSB Goku > UIO1

Post-UIO3 SSB Goku > UIO2

Post-MUI <=> ??? (Potentially stronger than UIO3?)

So we can conclusively state that SS Broly and Golden Frieza should scale considerably or far above UIO2 Goku and that SS Broly may scale to or above UIO3 Goku.

We have Frieza claiming that Broly is too powerful for 'anyone in existence' to defeat him so it's possible that he is referring to LB Jiren, which would scale SS Broly above MUI Goku in raw power which would thus mean Frieza could scale to handling MUI Goku for a minute.

However, if we take magazine scans as the word of god we can see that Beerus refers to MUI Goku as 'possibly' surpassing him and that Goku claimed, at the end of the film, that Broly is 'probably' stronger than Beerus. Goku is likely referring to FPSS Broly so...if we take the magazine as fact then that means MUI Goku = FPSS Broly roughly.

So with the magazine scan, we can state objectively that MUI Goku would stomp Golden Frieza in under a minute (due to the huge gap in scaling between SS Broly and FPSS Broly) or we disregard the magazine scan as a soruce of data and argue over Frieza's statement.

In other words, MUI Goku vs Golden Frieza is inconclusive.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

I just still feel MUI Goku would stomp Golden Frieza.

 

[JackJoyce]

I just still feel MUI Goku would stomp Golden Frieza.

Yes he will

 

[MadGibbs]

Frieza wins due to godly durability+stamina in the first two rounds, Goku stomps third round

EDIT: I COMPLETELY misread rounds 1 and 2 and thought they were UIO1 & 2, my answer for 1 doesn't change, unsure about 2, and Goku still stomps in round 3, my bad

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Yeah but I wonder how Frieza is gonna outlast Goku in roun one and two I mean Ultra Instinct Sign is still fast af!

 

[MadGibbs]

Yeah but I wonder how Frieza is gonna outlast Goku in roun one and two I mean Ultra Instinct Sign is still fast af!

Think about it like this, Goku & Vegeta towards the end of the ToP were able to put up a fight against a Jiren who was using way more power than he did against Ultra Instinct -Sign- even in SSJB, and since they would have gotten zenkai boosts after the tournament they should have been stronger when they fought Broly during the movie in which they got dominated pretty easily near the end. Frieza was able to last an hour against a Broly that should be able to stomp Ultra Instinct -Sign- level characters.

EDIT: Also Ultra Instinct -Sign- has a time limit much shorter than one hour, as well as Goku not being able to use UI Sign's offense to the fullest anyway

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

I mean even though Broly as the AP advantage, He still can't hit Ultra Instinct Sign Goku.

 

[MadGibbs]

Kefla was able to graze Sign Goku since Broly is stronger he should be able to hit him as greater ki(in most cases at least) correlates to speed as well

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

... Are we all forgetting Instinstive Reaction like darn.

 

[Caleb3429]

... Are we all forgetting Instinstive Reaction like darn.

I was gonna say the same thing.

 

[MadGibbs]

It isn't relevant here

 

[Dragomer]

Yeah, it's not as much a question of Freezer being able to even land a hit on Goku as much as it is a question of Freezer tanking until UI wears off.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

It will run out soon though.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

People also seem to forget in this thread that UIO canonically has awful offensive power. UIO2 Goku couldn't put down LSS2 Kefla after all and I'd laugh off anyone that tries to claim Kefla is stronger than GoD Toppo who Broly is objectively multiple times stronger than.

The only way Goku is going to seriously take down Frieza is with the Kamehameha and I find it hard to believe that one Kamehameha from UIO3 Goku would put down Frieza when Frieza could tank all of Broly's attacks for over an hour, react to them and outright resist for the full hour.

The novel even outright states that Frieza ran out of stamina. He didn't get taken out due to damage, but Frieza's own stamina not being enough to keep up after over an hour straight.

Jiren could also tag MUI Goku multiple times in their fight and UIO3 Goku was evenly matched with Jiren in speed. So it's true that Broly would be able to tag and injure UI Goku if they fought, simply due to Broly's own power and speed being enough to surpass Goku's reflexes.

The question of MUI Goku vs Frieza thus scales off Frieza's ability to endure Goku's attacks for the minute or so duration before the godly drawback nearly kills Goku. If the Beerus 'quote' in the magazine is accepted then MUI Goku would kill Frieza in under a minute. But if it isn't then Frieza's statements in the novel can be used as reasonable evidence that Frieza may be capable of handling Goku for the full minute.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Frieza was getting mollywopped by Broly. Don't really think his beating can be used for like, anything.

 

[MadGibbs]

All he has to do is outlast UI Sign...so yeah it kinda can

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Sign lasts a while though. Longer than MUI and doesn't have the nasty drawback if blowing Goku up. UIO3 sh*ts on Frieza and even if Frieza survives, he has significantly less ki than Goku after the beatdown.

UIO2 however, yeah. Frieza wins.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Frieza was getting mollywopped by Broly. Don't really think his beating can be used for like, anything.

Except the novel, which is accepted as canon here, has Frieza fighting back against Broly. It wasn't a one-sided ragdolling. Sure, Frieza's attacks were ineffective but he was still capable of fighting back and slowing Broly's movements.

The closest thing to a confirmation that Frieza was being stomped around the entire time is the novel referring to Frieza as being treated like a sandbag but IIRC it referred to Frieza 'becoming a sandbag again' which implies that it was more of a back-and-forth of Frieza adapting to Broly's attacks and trying to counter attack.

And, as I already said, the novel states Frieza lost due to his stamina hitting its limits. He wasn't defeated due to being too damaged. Which shows that Frieza's durability and stamina can handle Broly's power where Frieza's AP can not.

All that matters here is durability and stamina. So Frieza can tank and outlast UIO3 Goku. The only one that can take him down is MUI Goku and that requires arguing with questionable evidence to dictate whether or not that would be the case.

 

[MadGibbs]

@Cryo do u happen to have a link to the novel, im actually curious

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

If the novel at all implies that Frieza put up a fight against Broly, it's outright contradicted by the stompfest we see in the movie.

 

[MadGibbs]

I thought portions of the fight weren't shown in the movie because they were showing off Goku & Vegeta trying to learn the fusion dance? If so then Frieza could have put up a little bit of a fight during the portions the movie didn't show if thats what the novels are trying to say

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@Cryo do u happen to have a link to the novel, im actually curious

https://www.narutoforums.org/threads/dragon-ball-super-broly-novel-translations.1158464/

Golden Frieza's punches were able to dull Broly's movements a bit if landed properly, and if he were to throw blows with all of his might, Broly would go for avoiding them. However, that was all he could do.

"Gyaaaaaaaa!"

Frieza continued being a sandbag. However, being able to take Broly's attacks over and over again for over 30 minutes is nothing short of amazing. As expected, he's not called the Emperor of the universe for nothing.

And so, Goku and Vegeta's training to perform fusion resumed after 30 minutes had passed.

"Fuuuu~, sion! Ha!"

The figure that showed up this time around was that of a emaciated individual who could barely stand. Piccolo's ruthless scolding followed instantly.

"No good at all! The angle of your pose was slightly different. Try again in 30 minutes!"

And thus, Frieza's battle continued on for over an hour. However, his stamina was nearing its ends. On the other hand, Broly continued attacking without losing any power as if his stamina were limitless.

Broly did not step any closer. Could he have felt that Frieza no longer had any power left to resist?
As he let out a roar, Broly flared his aura and launched in a completely different location.

"Ugh... splendid... what splendid power!"

It was without a doubt, no being that could've won against this Broly existed. After the beating he had received, this much was clear to him. To Frieza, he represented a potential powerful weapon.

 

[MadGibbs]

@Cryo good looks bro

 

[JackJoyce]

Jiren could also tag MUI Goku multiple times in their fight and UIO3 Goku was evenly matched with Jiren in speed. So it's true that Broly would be able to tag and injure UI Goku if they fought, simply due to Broly's own power and speed being enough to surpass Goku's reflexes.

The question of MUI Goku vs Frieza thus scales off Frieza's ability to endure Goku's attacks for the minute or so duration before the godly drawback nearly kills Goku. If the Beerus 'quote' in the magazine is accepted then MUI Goku would kill Frieza in under a minute. But if it isn't then Frieza's statements in the novel can be used as reasonable evidence that Frieza may be capable of handling Goku for the full minute.

Jiren being able to tag MUI Goku has no relevance to Broly. Jiren is a far far superior martial artist. Broly is a simple brawler.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Jiren being able to tag MUI Goku has no relevance to Broly. Jiren is a far far superior martial artist. Broly is a simple brawler.

Can you point me to where Jiren is stated to be a god tier martial artist that can match the movements of the literal pinnacle of a master martial artist? Can you explain to me how UI Goku is meant to dodge someone dozens of times faster, even if he can react?

 

[JackJoyce]

Jiren has been portrayed as an extremely smart fighter with various ranged attacks throughout the entire TOP. If you don't agree then you must've been watching a different anime. Also how exactly is Broly dozens of times faster?

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Jiren has been portrayed as an extremely smart fighter with various ranged attacks throughout the entire TOP. If you don't agree then you must've been watching a different anime. Also how exactly is Broly dozens of times faster?

The dozens of times statement was an exaggeration to estimate your perception on UI. I know some people that claim it works like magic that can insta-dodge anything.

Practically every fighter in the franchise is extremely smart, even the barely sapient ones. Broly was capable of perfectly replicating Goku's God Bind technique within seconds of seeing it once and it was stated by Vegeta that Broly was learning as he fought him.

Broly's adaptation mutation isn't limited to just power, it extends to skill.

 

[Ovrhide]

Broly was beating freeza in his regular ssj form, that was shown to be inferior to gogetas ssj form. HOW THE HELL does anyone compare a LSSJ Broly, that required a ssb fusion to beat, to a broly that was getting outdone by a regular ssj gogeta?

Broly is only Jiren/MUI Tier when maxed out completely. That pretty much shows the massive power up that is UIO/UI. And even at his max, Broly was stated to perhaps be above beerus. Freeza gets stomped by 3rd UIO Goku, who was fighting a near full power jiren.


And to cryothemayo, jiren is an extremely skilled martial artist. Even when not having a power advantage, his LB form managed to trade blows, dodge, and somehow connect blows on MUI Goku. Its not like he hasnt spend all his life training on his own, to the point he achieved powers superior to a hakaishin.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

And to cryothemayo, jiren is an extremely skilled martial artist. Even when not having a power advantage, his LB form managed to trade blows, dodge, and somehow connect blows on MUI Goku. Its not like he hasnt spend all his life training on his own, to the point he achieved powers superior to a hakaishin.

Because. Jiren is stronger than MUI Goku. This is blatantly seen in the multiple clashes that he wins with MUI Goku. His blasts completely overpower Goku's blasts and Jiren can deflect Goku's blasts.

 

[JackJoyce]

I mean MUI Goku was seemingly stronger after he received the friendship boost. Not to mention how brawlers like Kefla was easily outmaneuvered but UIO2 Goku despite being equally strong

 

[Mickey1940]

And to cryothemayo, jiren is an extremely skilled martial artist. Even when not having a power advantage, his LB form managed to trade blows, dodge, and somehow connect blows on MUI Goku. Its not like he hasnt spend all his life training on his own, to the point he achieved powers superior to a hakaishin.

Because. Jiren is stronger than MUI Goku. This is blatantly seen in the multiple clashes that he wins with MUI Goku. His blasts completely overpower Goku's blasts and Jiren can deflect Goku's blasts.

Not true. Did you realize that Goku won the fight?

The fight started out as MUI vs triggered LB Jiren, and ended with triggered MUI Goku vs triggered LB Jiren. When both were enraged, Goku was on top. Hence, Goku is stronger than Jiren.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Not true. Did you realize that Goku won the fight?

The fight started out as MUI vs triggered LB Jiren, and ended with triggered MUI Goku vs triggered LB Jiren. When both were enraged, Goku was on top. Hence, Goku is stronger than Jiren.

Yeah? I understand Dragon Ball is mostly about power but Jiren was objectively more powerful than MUI Goku. Jiren's entire 'point' is that he is the most powerful opponent in the entire franchise, up to this point. The point of UI is taking a person's abilities and pushing them to their absolute pinnacle, transcending their skill.

To imply that Jiren was 'keeping up' with such a legendary ability without having a notable power advantage is to imply that UI doesn't mean a damned thing. You might as well just claim that Goku would be better off unlocking SSBE and going SSBE X20.

Jiren was still matching UI Goku blow for blow, even when Goku was enraged. In-fact, I just rewatched how Jiren lost. Do you want to know how? It was from Goku DODGING and COUNTERING. Which is the entire point of the technique.

Goku, quite literally, could not overpower Jiren in a single instance of their fight, even when enraged. Goku only won because of UI's abilities, not its power.

 

[Mickey1940]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xjp2wkgAJQ

No, I think there were more than a few instances where Jiren successfully hits Goku, but couldn't do jack shit. Goku, on the other hand, even if you assume that UI was helping him instinctively land hits, was still able to send Jiren reeling on multiple occasions.

To say that Jiren > Goku is wrong. At MOST he should be equal to MUI Goku

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The exchange of punches right after Goku punches him in the face? Jiren only 'lands' a single punch, which doesn't really connect and Goku caught, using it to throw him. The exchange right after before Vegeta screams at Goku? Not a single visible attack from Jiren connects at all. The exchange right after? The only thing he really gets hit with is 'glare', evading everything else and finishing him off with a counter uppercut and a Kamehameha.

So yes, it's rather damn clear that as Cryo just said, Goku won against Jiren by doing exactly the thing UI is intended to do - evading and maximizing skill. So no, there's no basis for you to say Goku is equal or above Jiren.

 

[C2_of_Omegon]

Given how the fight went down between BUW Jiren and MUI Goku, I'd say that Jiren enjoyed a decent power advantage at least.

The fight is basically Jiren trying to pummel Goku into oblivion with a devasting offensive barrage and Goku weaving through it to deliver his own responses where he can. Most of Jiren's attacks get countered, dodged or blocked but what does get through tends to send Goku flying or overpower Goku's offense when they meet head to head. On the other hand, Jiren takes way more hits throughout the fight.

 

[Mickey1940]

Given how the fight went down between BUW Jiren and MUI Goku, I'd say that Jiren enjoyed a decent power advantage at least.
The fight is basically Jiren trying to pummel Goku into oblivion with a devasting offensive barrage and Goku weaving through it to deliver his own responses where he can. Most of Jiren's attacks get countered, dodged or blocked but what does get through tends to send Goku flying or overpower Goku's offense when they meet head to head. On the other hand, Jiren takes way more hits throughout the fight.

1:25 - 1:35

Goku goes "head to head" during this time period and it ended up with Jiren getting sent flying at the end

And when Goku was caught in the "glare", he was able to dispel it no problem, which he wouldn't be able to do if Jiren was stronger.

At the very least Jiren isn't much stronger than MUI Goku, if at all

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

The glare and their punches clashing is the only one you can justify, actually, which is far too little versus all the other stuff Goku is dealing with skillfully.

I really hope you aren't using their little exchange of punches while falling as proof, because you can't see anything clear.

 

[Fenryr1111]

I vote Frezia Via Hax