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Golden Frieza vs. Ultra Instinct Goku.

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Mickey1940 said:
1. I mnever said that i believe that they are all equal, I'm saying there is no proof other than physical appearance (for example, Champa) saying that they AREN'T equal to each other, at least not in the anime
2. Can't say much for Broly cause idk if Beerus > Frieza is tru at this point or not

3. Frieza is trying his best to kill goku in this fight, so why would he hold himself back? Also, once again, I DON'T CARE ABOUT UIO.


Just to make sure you don't mention UIO again, I will cast my vote that Goku would lose in Round 1 and probably Round 2. I'm only arguing the bonus Round
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I know you aren't referring to UIO Goku. I even specifically acknowledge and state this. I am not only arguing you but myself when I am making posts. I have to organize my thoughts and depict them truthully, honestly, so I can argue for all rounds and show where my logic leads.

I also never claimed that you said the GoDs are all equal. I specifically stated that you claimed they are 'around' the same level of power which is what you outright said. So with your statement, that the GoDs are treated as being all around the same similar level of power (barring Beerus and Belmod who are compared). If this is the case than Frieza is capable of handling someone far stronger than a God of Destruction for over an hour. If this is the case then he can, by all means, handle 100% Jiren and UIO3 Goku perfectly fine...considering the only source for UIO3 Goku's power (who is depicted as equal to Jiren's full base power) is a magazine statement 'quoting' Beerus as claiming Goku is 'probably' stronger than he is.

We have no actual method of scaling MUI Goku and LB Jiren. So we can not argue how strong they are relative to UIO3 Goku and 100% Jiren outside of some vague handwaving that MUI Goku blitzed 100% Jiren with extreme ease. But for that to be the case Goku would only really have to be...what? 2x the power of base Jiren? To achieve this. So if Frieza can tank somebody far stronger than the GoDs like Broly for over an hour (even phasing him) which is roughly equivalent to UIO3 Goku and 100% Base Jiren and if our only real 'scale' for MUI Goku relative to UIO3 Goku is him being at least 2x stronger than before then...I don't see how we can logically claim that Frieza CAN'T tank MUI Goku for over a minute and then kill base Goku.

And, again, I don't seen why Goku would be aiming to kill Frieza. Frieza is always going to be bloodlusted in-character against Goku but Goku isn't going to be bloodlusted against Frieza nor would it even be accurate to Ultra Instinct itself for Goku to be bloodlusted in the first place...Of course the standard battle assumptions refer to the character being in-character but still being willing to kill so I will reluctantly drop this argument.

Overall, I am going to vote, based on my arguments and Schnee's approval of said arguments, for...

Round 1: Frieza - Arguable stomp in Frieza's favour due to my argued scaling and Frieza tanking somebody equivalent to or above UIO3 Goku and 100% Base Jiren for over an hour.

Round 2: Frieza - Arguable that he would lose due to UIO3 having no hard, known, limit but based on UIO2 and UIO as well as Frieza's feats...it seems reasonable that Frieza can outlast UIO3 Goku's stamina. It is also arguable that Frieza scales above UIO2 Goku.

Round 3: Inconclusive - Unable to ascertain the gap between UIO3 and MUI outside of MUI blitzing someone equal to UIO3 Goku of which Frieza could still endure for the one minute limit.
 
So what you're saying is:

Round 1: Frieza AP stomps

Round 2: Frieza wins despite AP difference via outlasting

Round 3: Incon

I agree now.
 
Yes. Many arguments can be made for him defeating MUI regarding time limit but it can't conclusively be resolved unless we have a way to judge how it scales from UIO3. Frieza could easily tank it for over a minute if the difference is only a few times but we can't judge the scaling.

The votes are (regarding UIO2 and UIO3)

6 for Frieza, 7 if Mickey is voting by saying he agrees

1 for Goku

The votes are (regarding MUI Goku)

2 votes for inconclusive regarding Frieza vs MUI Goku.

If Mickey is voting for Frieza this can enter grace period.
 
wait, I thought that you only needed to be like 25%-30% stronger than your opponent to stomp in DBZ, like what happened in Vegeta vs Kiwi

If MUI Goku is a "few times" stronger than Frieza then he would one-shot

either way, for Round 1 I'm voting Frieza, Round 2 I'm voting Incon for now
 
Mickey1940 said:
So what you're saying is:

Round 1: Frieza AP stomps

Round 2: Frieza wins despite AP difference via outlasting

Round 3: Incon

I agree now.
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Agreed. Also Round 3 goes to UI Goku. He obliterates Frieza with a Kamehameha
 
Mickey1940 said:
wait, I thought that you only needed to be like 25%-30% stronger than your opponent to stomp in DBZ, like what happened in Vegeta vs Kiwi
If MUI Goku is a "few times" stronger than Frieza then he would one-shot

either way, for Round 1 I'm voting Frieza, Round 2 I'm voting Incon for now
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Depends. Broly is 40-50x stronger than SSB Goku yet Frieza can tank him for over an hour. It seems doubtful that Frieza would be 40-50x the power of Goku so it brings into question where exactly Frieza would scale between the two saiyans.
 
With Joyce voting for Frieza it seems that, even with Mickey claiming inconclusive, that Frieza is at 7-1-1. Seems to me like grace period should pass in 21 hours.
 
That's why you kept talking about the bonus round despite the instance where I told you the main focus was the second round.

How is that he has only one vote if you were arguing that he stand no chance against MUI? The vote count is for UIO3.
 
Yeah, all of the votes are for UIO3. I have argued extensively why Frieza would stomp UIO2, why he would probably win against MUI and why, overall, he would win against UIO3.
 
Are you kidding me? It has already been stablished that MUI Goku is stronger than Jiren, who stomps Evolution Vegeta and GoD Toppo.

MUI Goku and Jiren are confirmed stronger than Beerus by a loy while Broly just barely was comparable to him.

MUI Goku stomps in the time he has it active no difficulty to the point i would consider this a stomp.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
Yeah, all of the votes are for UIO3. I have argued extensively why Frieza would stomp UIO2, why he would probably win against MUI and why, overall, he would win against UIO3.
Click to expand...
ah ok
 
Hans0l013123897 said:
Are you kidding me? It has already been stablished that MUI Goku is stronger than Jiren, who stomps Evolution Vegeta and GoD Toppo.
MUI Goku and Jiren are confirmed stronger than Beerus by a loy while Broly just barely was comparable to him.

MUI Goku stomps in the time he has it active no difficulty to the point i would consider this a stomp.
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my arguement except ruder
 
Hans0l013123897 said:
Are you kidding me? It has already been stablished that MUI Goku is stronger than Jiren, who stomps Evolution Vegeta and GoD Toppo.
MUI Goku and Jiren are confirmed stronger than Beerus by a loy while Broly just barely was comparable to him.

MUI Goku stomps in the time he has it active no difficulty to the point i would consider this a stomp.
Click to expand...
You can only argue that based on your own interpretation. There is no canonical source that gauges how Beerus compares to Goku and Jiren. We also have no reason to believe Goku knows the extent of Beerus' power or what he can do. What we DO know is that Frieza can sense Ki, as well as God Ki and has fought both Toppo and Jiren yet claimed 'no one in existence' could defeat Broly. He is effectively claiming that SS Broly >>> GoD Toppo.

Due to how Frieza was presented at the end of the tournament it is also reasonable to believe he would have sensed the extent of Jiren's limit broken power...meaning, if we interpret it as such, SS Broly > LB Jiren. If we take this interpretation of the scenes we can effectively claim that Frieza tanked someone stronger than LB Jiren for over an hour straight. MUI Goku just isn't going to beat Frieza with his time limit of one minute.

This is why I am voting inconclusive for the bonus round. Whether or not Frieza could beat MUI Goku is PURELY based on how you interpret and argue the scene of Frieza saving Goku at the end of the ToP and whether or not Frieza was awake long enough to sense LB Jiren to compare it to SS Broly. We DO know that Frieza compared Broly based on how he faired against him however so we know that Broly, for a fact, curbstomps GoD Toppo.

Overall it is undeniable that SS Broly vastly surpasses someone who, by all means, is comparable to or above UIO2 Goku at his absolute minimum. The claim that SS Broly = 100% Jiren = UIO3 Goku is effectively valid no matter the interpretation of scaling or the scenes present in the anime.
 
Honestly I've never heard Frieza saying Broly is the strongest I've ever faced in the movie. Where did that notion come from? Also why did Broly get Paralysis inducement in his profile? I have no clue

Frieza has been decimated by a much weaker SSB Goku in Ressurection F'. So I highly doubt if he can actually tank a charged up Kamehameha of UIO3 Goku.
 
Goku whoops his butt. Broly the berserker isn't placing well-off hits like Goku is. Frieza got manhandled. He barely scales to Broly. Not to mention that Broly is probably under UIO2, as he doesn't have feats on that level.
 
@JackJoyce

The statement from Frieza is in the novel which is regarded as canon on the wiki.

@The real cal howard

I've already gone over this with thousands, tens of thousands, word count but I'll entertain the claim.

Goku was stronger than UIO1 after he used UIO2. Goku was fighting in fumes the entire tournament. Goku then went UIO3 and MUI which would have broken his limits way higher. Goku is likely stronger than UIO2 now. This doesn't consider the months of training he has had since the ToP.

Frieza personally fought Toppo and deemed Broly as, basically, the strongest in existence. This means he is judging Broly as far above Toppo who is over 20x stronger than someone stronger than UIO1. The minimum multiplier accepted for UIO is 40x Blue. Essentially, Broly IS UIO2 level at its minimum with barebones scaling.

It is also, based on presented, very reasonable for me to claim Frieza sensed LB Jiren and is claiming Broly is stronger than him. Considering the timeframe for Frieza to wake up, transform and be ready to save Goku would have to be at least several seconds before Goku defeated Jiren... lest the pair have sensed him powering up.

So, effectively Broly is UIO2+ by scaling from Toppo. Goku himself is arguably UIO2+ himself based on scaling from his previous UI boosts and it has been agreed upon (last I checked) that Vegeta is considered equal to Goku.

So Broly is either UIO2+ level or stomped two opponents that are UIO2+ level and scales above LB Jiren.

Frieza takes this with sheer endurance and durability. Remember that UIO has poor offensive capability.
 
Come back with that when MUI vs Freeza is the main match. Right now is a bonus round of a concluded match between GF and UIO3.
 
Lmao any match like that would be a hard inconclusive from me. Literally impossible to argue the scaling objectively.
 
Frieza hasn't trained since ToP, he also can't attain Zenkai boosts therefore he's about as strong as UI1 Goku at best. The 1 hour beatdown is a joke. Can't prove me wrong.
 
Mythrillion said:
Frieza hasn't trained since ToP, he also can't attain Zenkai boosts therefore he's about as strong as UI1 Goku at best. The 1 hour beatdown is a joke. Can't prove me wrong.
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A joke? But that's part of the whole reason Frieza has Low 2-C. You'd need an anti-feat, and a strong one at that to keep that claim.
 
No, he doesn't need proofs because we can't prove him wrong :p

Indeed, Freeza is Low 2-C, at least Durability-wise.
 
Pretty high into Low 2-C in terms of durability, at that. He could tank a dude 50x a Low 2-C SSB Goku for over an hour. That SSB Goku is at least stronger than UIO1, probably UIO2. So arguably Frieza tanked someone over 50 x UIO2 Goku's power for over an hour straight.

Novel, taken into account, directly references Broly leaving Frieza after Frieza is unable to resist him. This has heavy implication that Frieza was completely conscious and constantly moving or fighting for the entire duration. Compare to GoD Toppo knocking Frieza out in under thirty seconds of fighting when GoD Toppo scales over 20x UIO1 Goku.

I'd love to see the argument for how Frieza hasn't grown stronger and doesn't have the durability to easily outlast UIO3 Goku.
 
CryoTheMayo said:
I'd love to see the argument for how Frieza hasn't grown stronger and doesn't have the durability to easily outlast UIO3 Goku.
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Not saying he didn't get stronger. But he was running around from Broly for an entire hour. Something Goku and Vegeta could also do if they had a senzu bean. UIO3 will obliterate him with a charged up kamehameha. Unless you can show that Frieza has tanked an energy attack of that magnitude from Broly and still survived
 
No, the novel, which is accepted as canon, explicitly states Frieza actively FOUGHT Broly for at least half an hour. Frieza then fought Broly for another half hour. The novel states that Broly likely left, not due to Frieza being damaged but because Frieza was too exhausted to even move. It even says that it was likely due to Frieza being unable to RESIST.

Frieza recovered in just a few minutes of rest.

Goku and Vegeta absolutely can not perform this feat. Senzu beans can't just be spammed. It's stated in the manga, to memory, that too many Senzu Beans is dangerous and Yajirobe even suffers weight gain from eating multiple in a row. To add further, it's hilarious that you use the magic, instantly fully healing, beans just so Goku and Vegeta have a chance at comparing to Frieza's endurance.

To add further, it has been accepted in the wiki that Broly stacked SS with Wrath, making him over 50x SSB Goku in power. Broly even casually tore through a full Power Galick Kamehameha with generic ki blasts.

Can YOU show me an example of the Kamehameha being over 50x stronger than Goku's baseline power? If not then Goku can't even damage Frieza slightly. It took over an hour of constant punches from 50x the power of SSB Goku to just EXHAUST Frieza.

You could mention Goku vs Frieza but that debunks the entire argument of Frieza only surviving Broly due to durability. Goku was only a little over twice the power of 50% Frieza but effortlessly curbstomped him in under five minutes. This indicates Frieza would have to be over 25x stronger than SSB Goku to handle Broly for over an hour.

Now, how strong is UIO3 Goku? We know SSB Goku scales far above UIO1, he is likely above UIO2 due to more limit breaks and fully healing. UIO is accepted as a minimum 40x multiplier. In other words, Minimum mult UIO3 Goku would be WEAKER than SS Broly. Anything above minimum is just pure speculation due to lack of data.
 
Going to point out that even if Frieza was somehow baseline Low 2C and only his Durability was that high, Goku reverts to 3A when his firm dies anyway.
 
I mean both Frieza and Android 17 recovered within 5 minutes or so (in TOP timeframe) after getting beaten up by FP Base Jiren. Who's somewhat comparable to SSJ Broly. So it's not like Frieza suddenly increased his durability to astronomically high level

Also UIO2 Goku could finish Kefla with Kamehameha while his normal punches were not that effective
 
JackJoyce said:
I mean both Frieza and Android 17 recovered within 5 minutes or so (in TOP timeframe) after getting beaten up by FP Base Jiren. Who's somewhat comparable to SSJ Broly. So it's not like Frieza suddenly increased his durability to astronomically high level
Also UIO2 Goku could finish Kefla with Kamehameha while his normal punches were not that effective
Click to expand...
17 has limitless stamina. Frieza consistently can recover from exhausation in just a few minutes of resting.

Jiren was nowhere near full power. At most he was suppressing to a high enough level to stomp them but not kill them. Even then, Frieza was one shot by Jiren super casually.

Whis specifically explains UIO as being limited offensively due to the difficulties associated with using UI on offense AND defense. Goku using the Kamehameha works around that weakness due to it being a concentration of his raw power rather than an augmentation of his power...or at least that's my theory. It might just be using Kamehameha is the easiest method of shifting to Offense UIO.
 
That doesn't change the fact that Kefla was stronger than UIO2. Anyways Frieza will likely withstand UIO3 long enough for it to fade off.
 
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