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Goku Vs Sakuya

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Ss3micah said:
But can anyone actually provide somewhat solid evidence or statements of Sakuya's EE being able to affect people?
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Attack potency description and the EE description on her powers and abilities says it affects beings too so it should technically work on Goku. I don't have scans tho so
refer below
JED said:
As for this battle, Fr can someone call more Touhou supporters please? Lol
Click to expand...
this plz lol
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
Attack potency description and the EE description on her powers and abilities says it affects beings too so it should technically work on Goku. I don't have scans tho so
refer below
Click to expand...
I would have preferred something from Touhou itself (manga or game information) but since i asked for somewhat solid evidence I'll settle on that for now
TheGreatJedi13 said:
this plz lol
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Yeah
We need lots of exposition for this match
 
"ZUN also said that "Manipulation of Time" is synonymous with "Manipulation of Space" (as it's well-known space and time are related as a 4-dimensional Lorentzian space within a pseudo-Riemannian manifold). By manipulating space-time, Sakuya is able to create parallel universes to some degree of extent, allowing her to make another Sakuya appear in front of her, which will execute a different action to that of the original, and thus creating a time paradox."

isn't this low 2-C time stop since it's basically manipulation of Space-Time to the point it can create a parallel universe.

I think her time stop would work against Goku since Hit's time stop is the only baseline if that is the case

As for her EE this is the best I could find.
 
TheGreatJedi13 said:
"ZUN also said that "Manipulation of Time" is synonymous with "Manipulation of Space" (as it's well-known space and time are related as a 4-dimensional Lorentzian space within a pseudo-Riemannian manifold). By manipulating space-time, Sakuya is able to create parallel universes to some degree of extent, allowing her to make another Sakuya appear in front of her, which will execute a different action to that of the original, and thus creating a time paradox."
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That's sorta impressive I guess
TheGreatJedi13 said:
isn't this low 2-C time stop since it's basically manipulation of Space-Time to the point it can create a parallel universe.
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No for a few reasons
1. She's manipulating Space-Time, NOT Creating NOR destroying Space-Time. It's like utilizing the rules of how Space-Time functions to make a parallel world rather than creating on from scratch. Similarly to how DBZ Characters can cause the creation of alternate timelines by manipulating the events of the past. Their not creating a timeline through their own power but creating one through manipulating the rules of the space-time continuum.
2. This doesn't reflect at all on her time stop as stopping time and space-time manipulation are different abilities.
TheGreatJedi13 said:
I think her time stop would work against Goku since Hit's time stop is the only baseline if that is the case
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ACTUALLY Hit's time stop has WAY more reason to be above baseline while I cannot say the same about Sakuya

The Effect of Hit's Time Stop Improves with every Improvement as seen in the U6 vs U7 Saga and Hit has feats of being able to relatively affect beings who resist time stop as well as transcend time

While the only reason why people assume Sakuya's is superior is because it work's on POSSIBLY Low 2-C (4-D) Scale which honestly according to way I've seen the Wiki operate could only be interpreted as a Range Feat
Sakuya's time stop has never shown to be capable of working on beings who resist time stop nor does it ever shows feats of improving and If anything it seems to have the same limitations as DIO's The World as Items that she uses also become frozen in stop time

TheGreatJedi13 said:
Sakuya
As for her EE this is the best I could find.
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YOU KNOW WHAT
I'm almost completely convinced she CAN'T erase beings and that someone only had that written on her profile so that she could be a high contender for matches and because no one has ever questioned it till now it's engraved in the subconscious of many that Sakuya can erase people with a thought when absolutely no evidence exists detailing that to be the case

Believe it or not, this tends to happen
 
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Bernkastelll said:
Touhou danmaku is way better than kefla one
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1. Hi Bernkastell

2. Bernkastell? How could you?

Are you saying that Characters in Touhou who DO NOT possess ACROBATICS and have COMPLETELY DODGE danmaku attacks with just LINEAR MOVEMENTS is plausible
BUT Goku, who possesses ACROBATICS, COMPLICATED MOVEMENT PATTERNS, ANALYTICAL PREDICTION AND INSTINCTIVE REACTIONS wouldn't be able to do the same just because Touhou is a hard as $%@! bullet hell game

Also side note:
Kefla's is way better considering you need heightened instinctive reactions and amped acrobatic abilities to dodge her Danmaku while Touhou Danmaku's are often slow moving and can be easily dodged with LEFT, RIGHT, UP, DOWN Movements
 
Ss3micah said:
1. Hi Bernkastell
Click to expand...
Hewllo
Ss3micah said:
2. Bernkastell? How could you?
Click to expand...
ye
Ss3micah said:
Are you saying that Characters in Touhou who DO NOT possess ACROBATICS and have COMPLETELY DODGE danmaku attacks with just LINEAR MOVEMENTS is plausible
BUT Goku, who possesses ACROBATICS, COMPLICATED MOVEMENT PATTERNS, ANALYTICAL PREDICTION AND INSTINCTIVE REACTIONS wouldn't be able to do the same just because Touhou is a hard as $%@! bullet hell game

Also side note:
Kefla's is way better considering you need heightened instinctive reactions and amped acrobatic abilities to dodge her Danmaku while Touhou Danmaku's are often slow moving and can be easily dodged with LEFT, RIGHT, UP, DOWN Movements
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its due the number of danmaku, and the whole left right up down is kinda of mechanic, but touhou characters spam their danmaku too much
 
Bernkastelll said:
its due the number of danmaku, and the whole left right up down is kinda of mechanic, but touhou characters spam their danmaku too much
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Evidently it isn't considered a mechanic because no touhou character possesses acrobatics and the fact that they can dodge these danmaku's without taking a hit is proof that even without acrobatics movements, these Danmakus are completely dodgable

Also Side Note:
Also in that video I spotted lotsa gaps in those danmukus that Goku would be able to take advantage of
 
Ss3micah said:
Evidently it isn't considered a mechanic because no touhou character possesses acrobatics and the fact that they can dodge these danmaku's without taking a hit is proof that even without acrobatics movements, these Danmakus are completely dodgable

Also Side Note:
Also in that video I spotted lotsa gaps in those danmukus that Goku would be able to take advantage of
Click to expand...
Dunno about that, in Touhou matches, it always is mentioned, but I am not really expert about Touhou except few stuff
 
Bernkastelll said:
Dunno about that, in Touhou matches, it always is mentioned, but I am not really expert about Touhou except few stuff
Click to expand...
That's because no has ever pointed it out before or failed to realize it
But hey you can check the profiles of Touhou characters if you want

You'll see none of them has Acrobatics
 
What the heck happened when I was asleep.

Did someone just said Sakuya Danmaku don't works? This is an outside verse battle and Danmaku can be impossible to dodge, the only way Goku can get out of the Danmaku is overpowering it or instant transmission, cuz dodging here won't be an option.
 
FluffyCreatureZ said:
Goku can either glare her and her danmaku away, or dodge them and ki blast her, she'll probably dodge or counter that, and then Goku can either try to attack her with IT into an incap or she uses EE or something, Goku anticipates and finishes her quickly.
Click to expand...
Except the Danmaku won't move because time is stop and Goku is stuck there unless instant transmission which Sakuya just need to duplicate and EE. (Yeah I also forgot the Danmaku doesn't move)

Also what the heck is this not able "to erase a person", Goku is an object, of course she can erase it. And what is this "EE that works differently" Sakuya just erase time and that's it.
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
What the heck happened when I was asleep.

Did someone just said Sakuya Danmaku don't works? This is an outside verse battle and Danmaku can be impossible to dodge, the only way Goku can get out of the Danmaku is overpowering it or instant transmission, cuz dodging here won't be an option.
Click to expand...
It won't for reasons I'm tired of stating by now but will again, cause why not?

The Danmaku attacks in Touhou have been dodged numerous times be other Touhou Characters with Linear Movement alone as no character in all of Touhou possesses Acrobatics

What are arguing is that Touhou characters you possesses no acrobatic capabilities can completely dodge danmakus but Goku who DOES possess Acrobatic capabilities, advance movements, analytical prediction and heightened instinctive reacts wouldn't just because he's not a Touhou character or because Touhou is a hard as $%@! bullet hell game

And btw

Danmakus that require instinctive reactions, analytical predictions and acrobatics to dodge are far superior to Danmakus that require no acrobatics and simple linear movements to dodge

The fact that goku can dodge the former literally makes the latter weak sauce and Touhou danmakus are the latter
 
Ss3micah said:
The Danmaku attacks in Touhou have been dodged numerous times be other Touhou Characters with Linear Movement alone as no character in all of Touhou possesses Acrobatics
Click to expand...
Except you're assuming Sakuya will starts off with the normal OG Danmaku in this battle when she's clearly not.

Now that I think about it, I feel like Sakuya will start off EE since no spellcard rule being applied here.
 
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OnsokunoSonic said:
Except the Danmaku won't move because time is stop and Goku is stuck there unless instant transmission which Sakuya just need to duplicate and EE. (Yeah I also forgot the Danmaku doesn't move)
Click to expand...
That's assuming Goku is affected by her time stop
OnsokunoSonic said:
Also what the heck is this not able "to erase a person", Goku is an object, of course she can erase it. And what is this "EE that works differently" Sakuya just erase time and that's it.
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This contradicts your argument
It makes a clear distinction on what Touhou classifies objects to be

And I asked for proof or statements of it affecting people not just objects.
Saying goku is an object isn't a good argument

If you can show me a statement of EE affecting objects and people are also considered as objects then I'll concede
Otherwise it's just headcanon assumption
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
Also what the heck is this not able "to erase a person", Goku is an object, of course she can erase it. And what is this "EE that works differently" Sakuya just erase time and that's it.
Click to expand...
How fast is her EE?
I'm not talking about the activation
I'm talking about the execution and resolution of the effect after the fact
 
Ss3micah said:
That's assuming Goku is affected by her time stop
Click to expand...
Yeah but he won't be able to move since the Danmaku are stopped in time and Goku can't move it, get it?
Ss3micah said:
If you can show me a statement of EE affecting objects and people are also considered as objects then I'll concede
Otherwise it's just headcanon assumption
Click to expand...
You know her power works via time manipulation right? Since she can stop someone, then she can erase someone it's pretty simple, really.

Also she can still use deflation world and makes knives appear instantly to the heart.
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
Except you're assuming Sakuya will starts off with the normal OG Danmaku in this battle when she's clearly not.
Click to expand...
Every Danmaku in all of Touhou can be dodged. Watch speed run videos. And it's done through Linear Movements or at least nothing even remotely comparable to advance movements like gokus
OnsokunoSonic said:
Now that I think about it, I feel like Sakuya will start off EE since no spellcard rule being applied here.
Click to expand...
OK fair point. Now just prove that EE can affect people and we got a direction going
 
OnsokunoSonic said:
Yeah but he won't be able to move since the Danmaku are stopped in time and Goku can't move it, get it?
Click to expand...
Yeah, but then again he really wouldn't need to, given that he could glare or IT blitz while Sakuya is busting out Thousands of Non-Moving Knives

EDIT: Assuming Goku isn't affected by her time stop and since her own knives are
OnsokunoSonic said:
You know her power works via time manipulation right? Since she can stop someone, then she can erase someone it's pretty simple, really.
Click to expand...
That's a somewhat fair assumption and it would be viable to EXCEPT the game made it specifically clear that she can only time erase objects and what those objects are and now I need proof that she can time erase people as well or alternatively that people are considered as objects in Touhou
OnsokunoSonic said:
Also she can still use deflation world and makes knives appear instantly to the heart.
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Passive Aura and Durability Negs
Plus goku has reacted and responded and countered attacks from beings far faster than himself with less than a fraction of a second to work with. So in this EQUAL SPEED MATCH goku would still be able to block and weave
 
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I expected a heated and toxic debate here, not an actual high brain and clean debate, not that i'm complaining tho, i even so happy with the outcome of this match

Anyway great fight, Goku FRA
 
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