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Goku Vs. Master Hand

I mean, both Goku's have their rather mature side when it comes to things. Adult Goku mostly. I mean, look at the Buu Arc, the Cell arc, the Goku Black Arc, the ToP Arc, and so forth. They all had moments where Goku was rather serious/mature when it came to certain things.
 
Idk about Goku being all that smart. Like, every single character in Naruto has more tactical skill than him. Folk in KHR are mafia members that have to plan calculated attacks, people in Bleach and Tower of God have been existing for hundreds and thousands of years, and have been fighting and developing techniques for equally as long.

Goku is kinda dumb. In battle, sure, he's pretty smart. But he typically kinda just punches and does ki blasts from his hands. Like, after all this time, he just now unleashed a ki blast from his foot against Kefla. He's not really all that creative compared to other protagonists imo. Take Ikki Kurogane or Percy Jackson (character) or even Izuku Midoriya. They're all either more tactical, or more creative. Goku has always felt kinda meh, to me. Hype, of course, but rather bland in many aspects.
 
Yeah, and I like Goku in those moments, but the moments in which he acts like an idiot and does thing like letting the enemy power up on porpuse just piss me off.
 
AntorusTheBurningThrone said:
The 1 thing in DB that can beat EVERYONE their Tier, and below: Speed, Smarts, Offense, and Defense. Something Goku's all too familiar with. Equalize 1 thing, and Goku easily gets ******. However, unequalize them all (AKA, have regular DBS Goku stats), and you get a man who blitzes Hax before it even occurs.
Click to expand...
One word:

Lavos

Beats Goku in all those things you listed, so DB characters don't have that over everyone in their tier.
 
Anyway, Goku blitzes, being like, a thousand times faster (though iirc, Master Hand, Crazy Hand, and Tabuu should be infinite speed). Speed equalized, and Goku gets trounced by an absurd AP advantage and a massive amount of hax
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
Saint Seiya also beats them in speed and Middens beats them in offenses.
Click to expand...
I could probably think of dozens more, but I don't really feel like it. Like, there's Gurren Lagann that beats them in speed, and Rosalina and Smash Bros. beats them in AP, and iirc, there's some Low 2-C Digimon.
 
One thing I never understood is how the hell SSB beats Dragon Ball Super in AP, yet Goku defeated Giga Bowser who has more AP than two Hands. To this day I'm still confused about that match.
 
Paulo.junior.969 said:
One thing I never understood is how the hell SSB beats Dragon Ball Super in AP, yet Goku defeated Giga Bowser who has more AP than two Hands. To this day I'm still confused about that match.
Click to expand...
MUI wank
 
The real cal howard said:
AntorusTheBurningThrone said:
The 1 thing in DB that can beat EVERYONE their Tier, and below: Speed, Smarts, Offense, and Defense. Something Goku's all too familiar with. Equalize 1 thing, and Goku easily gets ******. However, unequalize them all (AKA, have regular DBS Goku stats), and you get a man who blitzes Hax before it even occurs.
Click to expand...
One word:

Lavos

Beats Goku in all those things you listed, so DB characters don't have that over everyone in their tier.
Click to expand...
Nah. Half of Lavos' feats seem rather Jiren Tier...
 
Litentric Teon said:
Idk about Goku being all that smart. Like, every single character in Naruto has more tactical skill than him. Folk in KHR are mafia members that have to plan calculated attacks, people in Bleach and Tower of God have been existing for hundreds and thousands of years, and have been fighting and developing techniques for equally as long.
Goku is kinda dumb. In battle, sure, he's pretty smart. But he typically kinda just punches and does ki blasts from his hands. Like, after all this time, he just now unleashed a ki blast from his foot against Kefla. He's not really all that creative compared to other protagonists imo. Take Ikki Kurogane or Percy Jackson (character) or even Izuku Midoriya. They're all either more tactical, or more creative. Goku has always felt kinda meh, to me. Hype, of course, but rather bland in many aspects.
Click to expand...
W...we going to forget all of the tricks Goku tried using against his Enemies, like Cell, Tao, Tien, Jiren, and co?!

Yeah?! Okay...
 
What impressively tactical things did he do against any of them? I'm surprised you didn't mention the Frieza thing, with abusing the fact that he couldn't sense energy. Cell, all I can think of is the Warp Kamehameha, which in the grand scheme of things, is only a meh tactic. I can't for the life of me remember any impressive tactics against the others though. No to say they don't exist, but I can't recall.
 
MUI Goku should indeed be enough to beat Master Hand, even with speed equalized. You guys should just equalize speed. Goku isn't that stupid.
 
The real cal howard said:
What impressively tactical things did he do against any of them? I'm surprised you didn't mention the Frieza thing, with abusing the fact that he couldn't sense energy. Cell, all I can think of is the Warp Kamehameha, which in the grand scheme of things, is only a meh tactic. I can't for the life of me remember any impressive tactics against the others though. No to say they don't exist, but I can't recall.
Click to expand...
I mean, he made Ki Barriers to protect himself, used Ki attacks to outsmart his opponents, he hides his Ki, he throws in landmines, and shit. He even thinks of weaknesses against his opponents. :/
 
Except a lot that stuff we've seen others do or perform. They're not particularly masterful and kind of basic. Their in-situ moves born from spontaneous moments of ingenuity, not planned out strategic attacks. If I wanted a noted character who constantly analyzes and feels out his opponent to come out with better strategies, I'd get Kakashi Hatake. Hec', if you want an example from in the DB universe, I'd go for Piccolo or Gohan before I ever called upon Goku.

Goku is the guy who thought they'd match Zamasu and Black using a load of senzu beans to keep up with them. The guy is an extremely intuitive fighter, but he's no master tactician or strategist. Goku is the guy you use to carry out someone else's orders not be part of the strategy meeting to decide what those orders should be.

But that's just my opinion.
 
@Antorus

Listing bad guys doesn't really do much to prove that Goku is a tactical fighter, lol. And the things you listed in response to Cal only really come from Super. And even then, your explanations were very vague. Using ki to protective yourself is very basic, as is firing it in blasts. And the ki mine things are from literally one battle, and a tactic he didn't even use once he had supposedly mastered ultra instinct.

Compared to many other protagonists, it's nothing special. Naruto Uzumaki (Teenager) employs his shadow clones as ropes, uses them in combos, to hide himself, for surprise attacks, gather energy for him, take hits for him, etc. Naruto using his clones can do far more than Goku using his ki, and Naruto has far more than just clones.

Even Ichigo Kurosaki with his Getsuga tensho can have the thing sit on his blade such that those who can absorb long ranged attacks can't absorb it. Or use it as a cover for something else. Spam it against those who can't defend against it. While not the best example, he does the same thing with that one technique that Goku does with practically the entirety of his moveset, plus one or two other things. I just personally don't find his tactics all that impressive.
 
Goku's tatics are not impressive, but he uses his brain when he notices that he won't get away without doing so. It's not like his combat intellect is null.

Though having him bloodlusted would certainly help...
 
How high in Low 2-C is Master Hand?
 
Isn't Arceus 2-B?

But yeah, curbstomping Low 2-C via being born is comparable to Goku who curbstomps a being who curbstomps a being that was becoming one with past, present and future.
 
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