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Did Kakashi ever tell Sasuke specifically that he could use the Eight Gates in combat?
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Gokage Speed Upgrade & Uzuhiko Fix [Boruto]
- Thread starter Ghostimuscrime
- Start date
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Even if we assume Sasuke had no knowledge of Kakashi’s ability to use the Eight Gates (an assumption I could contest, though it’s ultimately irrelevant), the fact remains that Kakashi was present when the group was assembling and was still deemed unnecessary. In fact, Sasuke explicitly stated, “I can only take a limited number of people, and this is the most useful crew.”
Kakashi directly witnessed the Otsutsuki invasion and their strength. Despite this, he never considered using even the First Gate to contribute to the team. This suggests he himself did not believe his power-ups would provide a meaningful advantage.
Attempting to justify Kakashi’s exclusion through elaborate mental gymnastics doesn’t hold up under scrutiny. Instead, applying Occam’s Razor leads us to a simple conclusion:
• Sasuke selected the most optimal team.
• Kakashi neither contested this nor offered to assist.
Thus, it’s reasonable to infer: Gokage > First Gate Kakashi > Base Kakashi ≈ Koji.
MinatoSparkle
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Does this CRT address Koji~Delta~Naruto in speed? I've only been following loosely
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- Thread starter
- #44
nope wrong place
MinatoSparkle
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Uh that's kind of important if you wanna scale the Kage above Koji
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- Thread starter
- #46
I guess but let's see what Lex cooks up, I'm withholding saying anything until he's done
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Sasuke actually saw Kakashi on the cliff when he used Eight Gates iirc
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- #49
I was gonna wait until Damage scrutinised lex's statement before bringing this up but oh well
I assume he wished to know that so he could dismiss that from Sasuke's analysis, it would be fair grounds, why would you register a form you haven't seen? This kills the Kido argument to downgrade Kakashi's speed.
Now addressing what Sparkle said cuz I don't wanna let opposers have any ammo, Kakashi does not scale to Koji, notice how I said 45.6c and not 50c? KK never took him seriously, he sneaks a clone in and then dips before Kakashi gets to do anything, Kakashi never gets to have a legitimate speed feat against Koji. This feat was only added to avoid putting KK at human level or unknown
did you disagree previously?
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Neutral for now.
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Base Kakashi already scales to Koji on the wiki I’m just playing by the book.I was gonna wait until Damage scrutinised lex's statement before bringing this up but oh well
I assume he wished to know that so he could dismiss that from Sasuke's analysis, it would be fair grounds, why would you register a form you haven't seen? This kills the Kido argument to downgrade Kakashi's speed.
Now addressing what Sparkle said cuz I don't wanna let opposers have any ammo, Kakashi does not scale to Koji, notice how I said 45.6c and not 50c? KK never took him seriously, he sneaks a clone in and then dips before Kakashi gets to do anything, Kakashi never gets to have a legitimate speed feat against Koji. This feat was only added to avoid putting KK at human level or unknown
did you disagree previously?
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- Thread starter
- #52
Nope,
Koji scales to at least Kakashi but not vice versa. You go all out, I don’t go all out, I end up getting your scaling but you won’t get mine
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Well we know clones are really inconsistent in Dura, but in AP they're as strong as the user. In terms of speed they're as fast as the user as well.
Kakashi is able to dodge attacks from Koji so he would scale in speed, and Koji's clone blocks attacks from Kakashi so they're relative. There's nothing in the fight that denotes that Koji wasn't putting in effort as much as Kakashi was in the fight, obviously he wasn't trying as much as against Jigen, but Kakashi should still scale to Koji in speed.
Kakashi scaling to Koji's dura with Purple Lightning is pretty dubious because as I said before clone durability is wildly inconsistent but it is a possibly rating, so I suppose it's fine.
I'm not getting your logic. The value comes from Koji, so Kakashi scales to Koji and Koji scales to 10% Jigen
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- Thread starter
- #54
KK gets his speed rating from Delta as of now, He was able to take her down via employing ninjutsu as I’ve said before
That’s 10c
Kakashi is 9.12c
I’ve said this before, Koji is not going all out, he doesn’t wanna combat one of konohas defenders as one of the good guys, he swiftly swaps with a clone and taps out of the fight, not allowing Kakashi to drag it out
And you don’t exclude durability but presuppose speed as well, if the overall chakra is small in contrast it’s gonna be overall inferior, when they’re equal it’s explicitly shown
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I think he means, on the wiki Kakashi is FTL and only FTL + when he uses his gates.
“ FTL (Should be comparable to Sakura, Kido believed him to be a troublesome opponent even with the Tailed Beast Drug in his possession”
“FTL+ with First Gate (The first gate multiplies one's speed by 5 times“
Basically Koji is faster than kakashi due to scaling to delta who is at least 10c due to scaling to SPSM Naruto, Proving that koji was indeed holding back against kakashi.
This is what I propose,
kakashi base = 9.12c
First gate kakashi = 45.6
New era kages = at least 45.6
Kinshiki = at least 45.6
Sasuke = At least 45.6, far higher ( Can match FusedMomo)
Naruto = At least 45.6, far higher ( Can match FusedMomo)
Delta = At least 45.6, far higher ( Can match SPSM Naruto)
Base Koji = At least 45.6, far higher (Can take on delta)
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- #56
This was my original plan for this crt so naturally I align with this, it’s narratively consistent for god tiers to dwarf Kakashi anyway
MinatoSparkle
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Koji considered it a significant risk to take on Kakashi so doubt that
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- #58
Nope. He never says thus
He makes quick work of it, Kakashi has stuff up his sleeve, including the gates so there’s potential danger yes but nothing upgrade worthy given their short interaction, Koji quickly ends it avoiding unnecessary interactions
And whatever they had he was careful enough not to hurt Kakashi but not vice versa
MinatoSparkle
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I mean he literally states "I didn't expect to take such risks to get [the scroll]" implying Kakashi is a risk to him, and there's really no reason for him to know about Kakashi's possession of the Gate
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All I will say is koji knows quite a lot.
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- #61
After reviewing it I am reaffirmed he made careful movements as to not to actually hurt Kakashi knowing his significance in Konoha and later decides it’s not worth his energy and taps out
I will also note that this is secondary canon, not present in the source material, generally in case of contradictory info the anime does not get used
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- Thread starter
- #63
You didn’t understand why I called it contradictory, Kakashi being relative with Naruto level people conflicts with Sasuke’s statement of recruiting the best people
Ofc even with it he still wouldn’t be a real issue as Koji didn’t go all out nor does anyone being a risk means you’re absolutely 1:1 with their speeds
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Risks can be categorized into levels: low risk, medium risk, high risk, and even severe risk. So, what type of risk would Kakashi be? Just kidding.
Kakashi, is a versatile shinobi ,that always has a lot of tricks up his sleeve. On the other hand, Koji possesses extensive knowledge about Konoha, its people, and even the power levels of some individuals, like Naruto. Although Koji probably never witnessed Naruto go all out, he could still deduce that Naruto would stand no chance against Jigen.
Koji saying, “Whew, I didn’t expect to take such risks,” doesn’t imply that he is weaker than or even on the same level as Kakashi. In fact, he explicitly mentioned that the data he was trying to retrieve had no direct connection to his actual goal. Thus him putting this much effort into it is a risk he didnt account for.
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What would you feel about the MAS being above it? As repeated many times in the series their teamwork surpasses linear addition, as the fusion of yin and Yang it allows them to attain their strongest possible ninjutsu state would be massively above their base
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Of course, with this logic, Kakashi would no longer scale to Koji in AP, thus leading to his irrelevance against Momoshiki and Kinshiki making much more sense, so I would not recommend this method of argumentation.
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- #68
Completely fine lol, reread my OP, I’ve refuted AP being a factor for them all
My arguments don’t rely on him needing AP relevance one bit
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The fact remains that against an opponent with Byakugan and Jutsu absorption, raw power is necessary. Darui specifically states this.
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So what? They don’t do anything at all, actual fodders AP wise, they instead get cooked by Kinshiki’s AP they can’t blitz him, they need to catch him off guard and bind him for their only W in the fight
They’ve deadass shown NOTHING ap wise for their physical powers to be considerable here, why would you repeat the same point thinking it would do something?
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That doesn't necessarily mean he realized Kakashi was using the Eight Gates.
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Damage reply to my counter
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I don't agree with your conclusion that Occam's Razor would support that. You'd be making additional assumptions that Sasuke factored in Kakashi's First Gate (which Kakashi has never used in combat so far as we're aware) or that Kakashi not volunteering himself means everyone else who did volunteer is automatically faster than his peak.
Boruto volunteered to go as well. Does that means that Versus Momoshiki Arc Boruto should be FTL+ as well since he volunteered but Kakashi did not?
Apollonir.Scale
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Couldn't they do anything? Without even using a jutsu, Darui made Momoshiki, who had absorbed the Kyuubi chakra, sweat. In fact, Darui is scaling Momoshiki from here.
Gaara's sand is already scaling Fused Momoshiki.
Kurotsuchi was able to punch Kinshiki.
Chojuro clashed swords with Rage Amp Kinshiki.
In the novel, Gokage was called the strongest shinobi.
I agree that they have speed above First Gate Kakashi. But claiming this with an AP decrease is completely flawed logic.
It would be better if you used the scan "Incredible strength and speed define Taijutsu" and then used the part in the novel where Kinshiki praises the Taijutsu of Gaara, Darui, Sasuke and Naruto as an argument.
Apollonir.Scale
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First Gate Kakashi is already accepted as an amplification on the wiki, so there’s no need to debate whether or not Kakashi uses it. That discussion is irrelevant. The fact remains: Kakashi already has First Gate as an amp according to the wiki.
Regarding Boruto, he didn’t volunteer to go. Sasuke explicitly brought him along because Boruto had an invisible attack that could assist in the mission:
“I can only take a limited number of people, and given our battle strength, this is the best group I can take.”
Kakashi didn’t object to this decision, even though he knew he could also contribute with the First Gate advantage. The logical conclusion is that Kakashi himself didn’t see it as a decisive factor in this scenario.
Lastly again, please stop bringing up the argument that Kakashi hasn’t used the First Gate in combat. That’s irrelevant to the discussion. If you disagree with the wiki and you believe it shouldn’t be accepted as an amp, then create a CRT. I am simply following the reasoning already established on the wiki. Based on that, Kakashi already has this amp.
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Fair enough, I just reread that part of the chapter.
How could Kakashi object to that decision? He wasn't present there when Shikamaru said that.
I don't consier it irrelevant. I'm not seeking to remove it from Kakashi's profile. I'm objecting it being used as the basis for scaling other characters. It still hasn't been sufficiently proven that Sauske is even aware of it, or that Kakashi was part of Sasuke's discussions on who he should take with him.
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dude seriously, at what point do you realise you’re not arguing in good faith, sasuke isn’t aware? Really?
Kakashi is the one giving in depth and detailed explanations down to the very sensation of using specific gates and having knowledge of how shibobi talented and genius a shinobi needs to be to attain certain gates, implying he's got much skill and understanding in it
And then Sasuke sees Kakashi struggling horribly, almost falling down to flying up the rocks while saying open carried by a sound effect
He definitely knows kakashi is using it
Stop making useless nitpicks against things that are basic sense
How many more weak attempts at debunk are you gonna make before you give this a green light
Assumptions are fair game as long as they're logical, I'm assuming Kakashi is secretly not swapped with an alien look alike with outerversal ap in boruto era
And please stop repeating arguments as if doing that makes your argument more sound, canon abilities are factored in by intelligent shinobi by default ESPECIALLY with kaguya level threats I hate bringing up the old stuff again and again
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I'm not convinced that this warrants a green light yet.
If you'd like me to stop posting I will, but for now my vote remains disagree with this.
