Gokage Speed Upgrade & Uzuhiko Fix [Boruto]

[Ghostimuscrime]

Couldn't they do anything? Without even using a jutsu, Darui made Momoshiki, who had absorbed the Kyuubi chakra, sweat. In fact, Darui is scaling Momoshiki from here.

Gaara's sand is already scaling Fused Momoshiki.

Kurotsuchi was able to punch Kinshiki.

Chojuro clashed swords with Rage Amp Kinshiki.

In the novel, Gokage was called the strongest shinobi.


I agree that they have speed above First Gate Kakashi. But claiming this with an AP decrease is completely flawed logic.

It would be better if you used the scan "Incredible strength and speed define Taijutsu" and then used the part in the novel where Kinshiki praises the Taijutsu of Gaara, Darui, Sasuke and Naruto as an argument.

Momoshiki literally blocks the attack
Fused Momoshiki argument is even worse cuz he beat the crap out of all the gokage, using him to scale them should be out of the question
The Sand barely acted as defense, (sand slows down his blow) he cannot even harm momoshiki with it or else he would shot it at the guy, Gaara does not have AP via his physicals OR sand
Kurotsuchi caught him off guard, the question mark in kinshikis face is the most clearest give away, idk how many times you need to be told this but kid sakura can send goku flying if goku lets her because his mass is limited.

None of them have any notable AP showings

the only person with a valid AP feat prior to the fusion is Sasuke

Also, Gokage was said to be the strongest Shinobi in the novel. This means Gokage>First Gate Kakashi.

nice find tho

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Momoshiki literally blocks the attack

The issue here is not whether Momoshiki blocks or not. It's Momoshiki sweating. Character X doesn't necessarily need to hit character Y for AP scaling. Whether character X can push character Y in a fight and make them sweat is also an AP scale.

Fused Momoshiki argument is even worse cuz he beat the crap out of all the gokage, using him to scale them should be out of the question

I wrote this just for Gaara's sand.

The Sand barely acted as defense, (sand slows down his blow) he cannot even harm momoshiki with it or else he would shot it at the guy, Gaara does not have AP via his physicals OR sand

Gaara's sand does not slow the attack. It is clearly blocking the attack. If Momoshiki had not used his hair technique and disrupted Gaara's chakra flow, his hand would not have been able to escape the sand.

Also, Gaara's sand's durability is used to measure Ap. This is already accepted in the wiki.

Kurotsuchi caught him off guard, the question mark in kinshikis face is the most clearest give away, idk how many times you need to be told this but kid sakura can send goku flying if goku lets her because his mass is limited.

A question mark does not always mean being unprepared.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Boruto volunteered to go as well. Does that means that Versus Momoshiki Arc Boruto should be FTL+ as well since he volunteered but Kakashi did not?

Nothing burger comment, it's like saying Kaguya cant be tier 4/3/2 cuz Sakura damaged her.
If you wanna play it that way? do it, Boruto kept up with fused momoshiki in combat, it is not gonna defeat my point.

Ah Lex dealt with it, another attempt nuked nice.

I don't consier it irrelevant. I'm not seeking to remove it from Kakashi's profile. I'm objecting it being used as the basis for scaling other characters. It still hasn't been sufficiently proven that Sauske is even aware of it, or that Kakashi was part of Sasuke's discussions on who he should take with him.

False, Sasuke saw it get used by Kakashi in real time

When Sasuke came to a conclusion the default occams razor stance is that he is factoring in everyone

I'm not convinced that this warrants a green light yet.


If you'd like me to stop posting I will, but for now my vote remains disagree with this.

You don't think it warrants a green light? then make good debunks lol

I don't want you to stop posting, I want you to make actual good counters instead of weak stuff like "Sasuke wouldn't have known"
I'd leave the CRT fully satisfied even if it is rejected as long as the rejection is under good argument
Saying you disagree based on refuted arguments is just poor faith evaluation and ignorance

 

[Stryker861]

I'm ngl ghost if you want to downgrade the gokage(they shouldn't be)that should be its own entire thread

 

[Damage3245]

You don't think it warrants a green light? then make good debunks lol

I don't want you to stop posting, I want you to make actual good counters instead of weak stuff like "Sasuke wouldn't have known"
I'd leave the CRT fully satisfied even if it is rejected as long as the rejection is under good argument
Saying you disagree based on refuted arguments is just poor faith evaluation and ignorance

I don't think good arguments have been brought up for it either. Sasuke never said Kakashi shouldn't come because he isn't fast enough to help. If you extrpolated that from your interpretation of the manga, then that is your own interpretation and it's fair enough for you to have but it doesn't convince me that the scaling change is warranted.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The issue here is not whether Momoshiki blocks or not. It's Momoshiki sweating. Character X doesn't necessarily need to hit character Y for AP scaling. Whether character X can push character Y in a fight and make them sweat is also an AP scale.

I wrote this just for Gaara's sand.

Gaara's sand does not slow the attack. It is clearly blocking the attack. If Momoshiki had not used his hair technique and disrupted Gaara's chakra flow, his hand would not have been able to escape the sand.

Also, Gaara's sand's durability is used to measure Ap. This is already accepted in the wiki.

A question mark does not always mean being unprepared.

He never sweats. He skillfully dodges Darui and easily blocks him without putting in much effort
Only starting to actually consider combat engagement when Sasuke shows up infront of him

Gaara's sand, a ninjutsu not scaling to his physicals does not have the AP to deal damage for you to argue they have AP benefits

If his sand was powerful offense wise he would have used it and taken the guy out.


Now for Kinshiki let me spoonfeed things to you
Kinshiki says Chojuro is wide open
Chojuro says you are as well
Kinshiki gives a look of confusion
Kinshiki says "What the ??"
Unable to process what's happening and then Kurotsuchi sends him flying

one of the most blatant showcasing of caught off guard feats.

I'm ngl ghost if you want to downgrade the gokage(they shouldn't be)that should be its own entire thread

The Opposers claim Gokage are recruited due to physical might, I'm saying they're trash in that and that point cannot be used to attack my argument

 

[Stryker861]

The Opposers claim Gokage are recruited due to physical might, I'm saying they're trash in that and that point cannot be used to attack my argument

Then you need to make a separate thread to get wherever you think the goakage scale because right now they are accepted as up there in ap

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

He never sweats

Look at Momoshiki's face in the panel where he makes the "Feh" sound. It's obvious that he's sweating because he's under pressure. There's a panel right below where he's running away from Darui. Even in Narutopedia, it's stated that he surpassed the Kage after eating Kinshiki. He couldn't have defeated Gokage without eating Kinshiki.

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

Gaara's sand, a ninjutsu not scaling to his physicals does not have the AP to deal damage for you to argue they have AP benefits

If a character can attack with something they can defend against, their AP is also measured over their defense. I wasn't talking about physical AP anyway. Examples of what I'm talking about are Gaara's sand, Braum's door, etc.

 

[Nierre]

If a character can attack with something they can defend against, their AP is also measured over their defense. I wasn't talking about physical AP anyway. Examples of what I'm talking about are Gaara's sand, Braum's door, etc.

we currently don't accept Gaara's sand AP scaling to his dura in this key

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't think good arguments have been brought up for it either. Sasuke never said Kakashi shouldn't come because he isn't fast enough to help. If you extrpolated that from your interpretation of the manga, then that is your own interpretation and it's fair enough for you to have but it doesn't convince me that the scaling change is warranted.

OK

We have narrowed down your contentions down to speed right? That's progress! better than saying no i disagree and dismissing the other, so I like this
Now allow me to walk you through the process, baby steps so everything is concise okay?


What is the gravity of the situation?

As explained in OP, They are a Kaguya level threat, Kaguya was a greater threat than Madara & Madara made Guy consider certain death, attaining Eight Gates believing it would give the good guys an edge, So they will consider ANY possible chances regardless of the side effects and his are far lesser than eight gates

What makes Sasuke choose one over the other?
I have established several times, the gokage by AP are rubbish, they get cooked when they can't use cheap ninjutsu or catch them off guard

You have no contentions with this I believe as you have no argued against it the many times it gets brought up so I will advance

They're not chosen due to AP now what?

What they are chosen for is the level of tactical advantage they can provide, Shinobi's usage is combat benefits above everything, that's consistent in naruto since the last time they faced an otsutsuki they could never overpower one, they had to resort to trickery or amps just to not get eliminated within seconds.
So now we know they're not brought for AP as they are all trash,

What other stats would be needed to recruit them?

Speed is a must, Trickery and Ninjutsu are also beneficial
Now different people will have different reasons to not be chosen, What makes Kakashi less favourable than the gokage? Is it Ninjutsu? Hell no, is it trickery? Still no, Kakashi is deadly smart, his BIQ is utterly cracked he's assisted and been useful many many times,

What other stat are we left with?

Speed
There is no other stat they can benefit from other than this so Sasuke would choose them because they're able to keep up with the otsutsuki despite their physical inferiority.
As Lex said, we as humans can infer things with context and unless you have contentions we can logically and safely conclude that Kakashi in particular is not chosen due to speed inferiority

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Look at Momoshiki's face in the panel where he makes the "Feh" sound. It's obvious that he's sweating because he's under pressure. There's a panel right below where he's running away from Darui. Even in Narutopedia, it's stated that he surpassed the Kage after eating Kinshiki. He couldn't have defeated Gokage without eating Kinshiki.

brother is quoting narutopedia

tears in my eyes
and no feh is a grunt made out of annoyance, there's no sweat, he does not struggle blocking daruis attacks one bit
it's strange you think such little info is enough to warrant an "obvious" from you but outright surprising kinshiki and having him question with a "what the- ??" made you think he's not off guard

Then you need to make a separate thread to get wherever you think the goakage scale because right now they are accepted as up there in ap

maybe later, wiki accepted stuff isn't end of all truth word of god anyway

we currently don't accept Gaara's sand AP scaling to his dura in this key

Thank you

 

[Damage3245]

We have narrowed down your contentions down to speed right? That's progress! better than saying no i disagree and dismissing the other, so I like this

Isn't speed what we've been talking about this whole time? What else would we be discussing?

 

[Samlex1234]

Fair enough, I just reread that part of the chapter.


How could Kakashi object to that decision? He wasn't present there when Shikamaru said that.


I don't consier it irrelevant. I'm not seeking to remove it from Kakashi's profile. I'm objecting it being used as the basis for scaling other characters. It still hasn't been sufficiently proven that Sauske is even aware of it, or that Kakashi was part of Sasuke's discussions on who he should take with him.

I’m not trying to be rude, but it seems like you’re not engaging in good faith here. It doesn’t even seem like you’re fully aware of the details you’re arguing about just disagreeing for the sake of it. First of all, it wasn’t Shikamaru who made the decision it was Sasuke. Secondly, Kakashi was indeed present. It’s unfair to disagree against something you don’t have all the facts about when you know your vote would indeed affect it. It better not to participate at all or rather just stay neutral (Administrator ).



Sasuke making the statement



Kakashi being present in the vicinity when. He made the sentence

 

[Nierre]

I’m not trying to be rude, but it seems like you’re not engaging in good faith here. It doesn’t even seem like you’re fully aware of the details you’re arguing about just disagreeing for the sake of it. First of all, it wasn’t Shikamaru who made the decision it was Sasuke. Secondly, Kakashi was indeed present. It’s unfair to disagree against something you don’t have all the facts about when you know your vote would indeed affect it. It better not to participate at all or rather just stay neutral (Administrator ).



Sasuke making the statement



Kakashi being present in the vicinity when. He made the sentence

that's a great find lol

 

[Damage3245]

I’m not trying to be rude, but it seems like you’re not engaging in good faith here. It doesn’t even seem like you’re fully aware of the details you’re arguing about just disagreeing for the sake of it.

Anyone can forget details after a while. I forgot that Sasuke brought Boruto along specifically for his Vanishing Rasengan trick. I had remembered this scene where it seemed like Boruto was volunteering.

It's a pretty honest mistake to make.

Sasuke making the statement

In that panel it looks like the speech bubble is going to Shikamaru?

Secondly, Kakashi was indeed present. It’s unfair to disagree against something you don’t have all the facts about when you know your vote would indeed affect it. It better not to participate at all or rather just stay neutral (Administrator ).

I see that Kakashi is present in the anime version of the scene; I was going by the manga version where he is not shown to be there.

 

[Deceived3596]

@Ghostimuscrime

Before continuing on with this conversation, could you answer Arc's question proposed here. It's important that people know what exactly you're arguing to address it adequately.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Isn't speed what we've been talking about this whole time? What else would we be discussing?

having you pronounce it outright is something I appreciate that's all

I see that Kakashi is present in the anime version of the scene; I was going by the manga version where he is not shown to be there.

He's not there because the manga is fast paced, the anime got to extrapolate much of it later on with Kishimoto's stated involvement in the anime it's okay to say he was there, either way chunin exams are a grand event calling kage from all the five great nations, it's easily deduceable that they were present

Also ircc he's retired and hangs around with Guy in konoha

@Ghostimuscrime

Before continuing on with this conversation, could you answer Arc's question proposed here. It's important that people know what exactly you're arguing to address it adequately.

getting to it

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

I disagree with using Gate 1 Kakashi for any form of scaling. He’s never once used it in a combat scenario at all to be included in any scaling chain whatsoever.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

What other stats would be needed to recruit them?

Speed is a must, Trickery and Ninjutsu are also beneficial
Now different people will have different reasons to not be chosen, What makes Kakashi less favourable than the gokage? Is it Ninjutsu? Hell no, is it trickery? Still no, Kakashi is deadly smart, his BIQ is utterly cracked he's assisted and been useful many many times,

The jutsu used to "bind" Kinshiki was a Lava style jutsu together with another jutsu used through the Hiramekarei which is a special sword, none of them are jutsu that Kakashi can actually copy as one is a kekai genkai and the other is a "magical" sword that Kakashi clearly cannot use. Assuming Kakashi can use a "binding" technique as strong as them is very big assumption.
You forgot one of the most important things in Naruto that is brought up through the entire time, teamwork, Kakashi being more powerful than the Kages individually doesn't make him stronger than them as a team and doesn't require them to be faster than he is.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Is the OP proposing to remove the Uzuhiko calc? In the sense of “the energy doesn’t apply to the external part of the attack”?

the energy and forces dont get converted to joules, they end up as side effects registering after the initial blast due to being stated to have the same ap as a normal attack


consistent with how code was showcased to not feel much against the initial blow of a semi charged uzuhiko, not even forced to fall down but the resulting side effects later on making him stagger

 

[Samlex1234]

Anyone can forget details after a while. I forgot that Sasuke brought Boruto along specifically for his Vanishing Rasengan trick. I had remembered this scene where it seemed like Boruto was volunteering.

It's a pretty honest mistake to make.


In that panel it looks like the speech bubble is going to Shikamaru?


I see that Kakashi is present in the anime version of the scene; I was going by the manga version where he is not shown to be there.

My bad, I take back the Shikamaru part I did think it was Sasuke. Either way, whether it’s Shikamaru or Sasuke, the point still stands: Kakashi is deemed unimportant to the crew.

Kakashi being present in the anime but not in the manga doesn’t disprove this point. Ikemoto rarely includes every significant character in the manga due to time constraints, leaving the anime to fill in those gaps (You will rarely see Kakashi in the manga). Even if we focus solely on the manga, Kakashi is never portrayed as valuable during confrontations with god-tier threats. Examples include Momoshiki and Kinshiki, Isshiki, Code, and even the current Shinju threat.

Back again to the logicical conclusion, Kakashi has no valuable advantage and since he is relative to Sakura and kido in base, he is five times faster and stronger in first gate, but still weaker and slower than the Kages and the otutsuki duos.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

The jutsu used to "bind" Kinshiki was a Lava style jutsu together with another jutsu used through the Hiramekarei which is a special sword, none of them are jutsu that Kakashi can actually copy as one is a kekai genkai and the other is a "magical" sword that Kakashi clearly cannot use. Assuming Kakashi can use a "binding" technique as strong as them is very big assumption.
You forgot one of the most important things in Naruto that is brought up through the entire time, teamwork, Kakashi being more powerful than the Kages individually doesn't make him stronger than them as a team and doesn't require them to be faster than he is.

Kakashi does not need that exact jutsu, when it comes to ninjutsu you dont need to be as strong as the enemy to make it work, a good example of this is shikamaru despite being oneshottable by momo was bound by the shadow possesion jutsu, same thing with his son against jura, they're all fodder and a stronger himawari gets beat up by him but he falls victim to the jutsu anyway


Kakashi can use several of his ninjutsu to his advantage to get an edge over them and has better IQ/BIQ, if he was fast enough he'd be able to do more than D tier trickery

---

In that panel it looks like the speech bubble is going to Shikamaru?

no problem, during this, he was there

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

My bad, I take back the Shikamaru part I did think it was Sasuke. Either way, whether it’s Shikamaru or Sasuke, the point still stands: Kakashi is deemed unimportant to the crew.

Kakashi being present in the anime but not in the manga doesn’t disprove this point. Ikemoto rarely includes every significant character in the manga due to time constraints, leaving the anime to fill in those gaps (You will rarely see Kakashi in the manga). Even if we focus solely on the manga, Kakashi is never portrayed as valuable during confrontations with god-tier threats. Examples include Momoshiki and Kinshiki, Isshiki, Code, and even the current Shinju threat.

Back again to the logicical conclusion, Kakashi has no valuable advantage and since he is relative to Sakura and kido in base, he is five times faster and stronger in first gate, but still weaker and slower than the Kages and the otutsuki duos.

also, Sakura isnt fighitng anyone in boruto either, but she came once in a blue moon for healing, showing us characters exist without being necessarily shown all the time (like everything else in such a large story)

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

Kakashi does not need that exact jutsu, when it comes to ninjutsu you dont need to be as strong as the enemy to make it work,

So are you saying that there was no need for Rikudou chibaku tense I because Kakashi would have nailed her with some random binding Jutsu? That's not how it works even if Kakashi has binding Jutsu there is no guarantee that any of them are strong enough to contain a Otsutsuki like the one used by the page.

a good example of this is shikamaru despite being oneshottable by momo was bound by the shadow possesion jutsu, same thing with his son against jura, they're all fodder and a stronger himawari gets beat up by him but he falls victim to the jutsu anyway

You are literally agreeing with me, despite being weaker having a single more powerful Jutsu makes them more of a threat than someone who is stronger and faster.

Kakashi can use several of his ninjutsu to his advantage to get an edge over them and has better IQ/BIQ, if he was fast enough he'd be able to do more than D tier trickery

By that line of work then everyone should scale much higher because Sasuke didn't even suggested the ideia of Orochimaru and his army of Edo tensei or heck why not Kakashi or the pages amped with Bijuu chakra drugs and steal Shin's Sharingans and star giving them like water ect.

 

[KingTempest]

I wasn't gonna get involved, but no.

Also, Gokage was said to be the strongest Shinobi in the novel. This means Gokage>First Gate Kakashi.

Why would this push the Gokage above an ex Gokage? Kakashi not being Hokage anymore doesn't now mean that he just lost all of his strength.

This is like saying after Hiruzen gave his Hokageship to Minato, he's now weaker than every other member of the Gokage. That's just... bad

Besides the fact that Kakashi was on the level of the Gokage in the war in base even without the gates.

I can see everyone's hellbent on scaling everyone above 5x Kakashi, but some of these methods of doing so are just... shitty

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So are you saying that there was no need for Rikudou chibaku tense I because Kakashi would have nailed her with some random binding Jutsu? That's not how it works even if Kakashi has binding Jutsu there is no guarantee that any of them are strong enough to contain a Otsutsuki like the one used by the page.

WHO IS HER? stop bringing kaguya into this, this is a darui or kakashi situation against momoshiki, neither are expected to perform that jutsu, they're gauged based on basic ninjutsu, I've refuted the idea that you need AP for your jutsu to work against a stronger guy, it's not something accepted in general and its shown repeatedly to not be the case with naruto series

You are literally agreeing with me, despite being weaker having a single more powerful Jutsu makes them more of a threat than someone who is stronger and faster.

I never said good ninjutsu does not come in handy, I said he has good and likely better ninjutsu since he's mastered 1000 of them


I'll say something explaining one point and some of you just ignore that even tho the refutation is included

By that line of work then everyone should scale much higher because Sasuke didn't even suggested the ideia of Orochimaru and his army of Edo tensei or heck why not Kakashi or the pages amped with Bijuu chakra drugs and steal Shin's Sharingans and star giving them like water ect.

Time is an issue...you do realise that dont you?

---

I wasn't gonna get involved, but no.

Why would this push the Gokage above an ex Gokage? Kakashi not being Hokage anymore doesn't now mean that he just lost all of his strength.

This is like saying after Hiruzen gave his Hokageship to Minato, he's now weaker than every other member of the Gokage. That's just... bad

Besides the fact that Kakashi was on the level of the Gokage in the war in base even without the gates.

I can see everyone's hellbent on scaling everyone above 5x Kakashi, but some of these methods of doing so are just... shitty

We say Gokage > Ex Kage because it is a direct statement, kurama avatar is generally ~ to sasuke's susano but if we get a statement that the susano is shattering the KA it does not matter what used to be the norm the official statements are word of god

Kakashi was relative to Shippuden Gokage? Cool, different cast, different scaling idk why you brought that up thinking it is a relevant point cuz its not

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

WHO IS HER? stop bringing kaguya into this, this is a darui or kakashi situation against momoshiki, neither are expected to perform that jutsu, they're gauged based on basic ninjutsu, I've refuted the idea that you need AP for your jutsu to work against a stronger guy, it's not something accepted in general and its shown repeatedly to not be the case with naruto series

It's the first time I bring Kaguya, and I'm saying that just because a binding Jutsu works doesn't mean all do, Gaara used his sealing on Madara and he just broke through it, Momoshiki broke through a chibaku tensei from Sasuke. Kekai genkai is not basic ninjutsu heck Kakashi having a thousand Jutsu would make him more powerful than Sasuke or Naruto since they have way less? Of course not.
First I'm not talking about AP, I'm talking about Jutsu working, you don't even have any example of binding Jutsu that Kakashi might be able to use, you are assuming he can.

I never said good ninjutsu does not come in handy, I said he has good and likely better ninjutsu since he's mastered 1000 of them

"Likely", Kakashi has 1000 Jutsu he probably has a six path level Jutsu to kill Momoshiki instantly because on your view 1000 Jutsu means his odds are higher. That's not how odds work, you know very well that Sharingan is limited, there is no guarantee he could have copied a Jutsu capable of holding back an Otsutsuki. And your ideia of a weak binding Jutsu is shadow paralysis Jutsu? That Jutsu was used by Shikamaru to stop all the kages in the novel, it was used by Momoshiki to stop Naruto and Sasuke, which this particular Jutsu was very clearly chakra based since it's stated in the novel that Naruto could break Shikamaru's Jutsu anytime he wanted.

Time is an issue...you do realise that dont you?

So is "power" and if you can assume Kakashi has a powerful binding Jutsu just laying around then we can all assume Orochimaru has a few many Edos ready at any time.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

It's the first time I bring Kaguya, and I'm saying that just because a binding Jutsu works doesn't mean all do, Gaara used his sealing on Madara and he just broke through it, Momoshiki broke through a chibaku tensei from Sasuke. Kekai genkai is not basic ninjutsu heck Kakashi having a thousand Jutsu would make him more powerful than Sasuke or Naruto since they have way less? Of course not.
First I'm not talking about AP, I'm talking about Jutsu working, you don't even have any example of binding Jutsu that Kakashi might be able to use, you are assuming he can.

"Likely", Kakashi has 1000 Jutsu he probably has a six path level Jutsu to kill Momoshiki instantly because on your view 1000 Jutsu means his odds are higher. That's not how odds work, you know very well that Sharingan is limited, there is no guarantee he could have copied a Jutsu capable of holding back an Otsutsuki. And your ideia of a weak binding Jutsu is shadow paralysis Jutsu? That Jutsu was used by Shikamaru to stop all the kages in the novel, it was used by Momoshiki to stop Naruto and Sasuke, which this particular Jutsu was very clearly chakra based since it's stated in the novel that Naruto could break Shikamaru's Jutsu anytime he wanted.


So is "power" and if you can assume Kakashi has a powerful binding Jutsu just laying around then we can all assume Orochimaru has a few many Edos ready at any time.

wasnt the sealing incomplete? meanwhile shikamaru's stuff don't require a full on process? you are using jutsu with more limitations to dismiss a jutsu with less ones? huh
Idt sasuke even used it in the manga isnt that for fluff? anyways we know ap isnt important as seen with my examples, if someone resists a jutsu what do we say about them? they have resistance, simple

omg there you go bringing six paths rubbbish into this, did you not read what I said? and it chakra based cuz its ninjutsu but not power based, it just gives naruto resistance, you wanna argue naruto can get out that means it MUST be ap related? momoshiki kicked his face and sent naruto flying, a stronger force got binded by the shadow paralysis and was forced to absorb it, kinshiki as well wasnt able to harm sarada and sasuke, you dont need god like ninjutsu to deal with them you just need convenient low tier ninjutsu and a bit of intelligence, assuming kakashi has tons of basic jutsu to give an edge, emphasis on giving edge or advantage, do not misquote me, assuming he has good enough jutsu to give tactical advantages from having one thousand different jutsu is a sound logical assumption instead of the orochimaru edo nonsense, you cant prove they have the neccessary stats to be worth bringing either


next time please read what I say, when there's conflicting scenarios the logical assumption is one that allows both to coexist especially if the feats are shown repeatedly to not need ap relevance, shikadai's chakra is actual rubbish compared to shikamaru & jura and it yet it worked, point dismissed

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

the energy and forces dont get converted to joules, they end up as side effects registering after the initial blast due to being stated to have the same ap as a normal attack


consistent with how code was showcased to not feel much against the initial blow of a semi charged uzuhiko, not even forced to fall down but the resulting side effects later on making him stagger

So basically you’re saying the database statement we get along with others aren’t quantifying the potency of the jutsu, and instead it’s just Rasengan level?

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

So basically you’re saying the database statement we get along with others aren’t quantifying the potency of the jutsu, and instead it’s just Rasengan level?

they're explaining hax potency not attack potency so yeah

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Aight, I might drop a post explaining my contentions with that interpretation, we’ll see how busy I am over the Holidays. Definitely don’t hold this thread up for me tho, proceed as usual.

 

[Testarossa002]

Kakashi
1. He was retired. Retired people don't tend to jump into confrontations unless as a last resort. It's not like he massively out-scales the Gokages (even with a 5x amp) to the point where all hope is lost if he doesn't join.

“Out of all of you, I’m the only one who has any kind of relationship with Redaku’s king. I always thought I’d go see the king face-to-face one day when I retired... and I’m free now.”
“To the west of the five great nations from here to the capital, if you went by Kaminari train... could we hurry up and make it in about two weeks?

Kakashi Retsuden; Chapter 1
2. Sasuke himself rarely sees Kakashi, And had not seen kakashi enough to accurately judge his combat capabilities

“Now, look. This old man here is trying to give you a piggy-back, okay? When he’s well on in years. Where else would that come from but a place of sheer kindness?”
It was the Sixth Hokage, Hatake Kakashi.
Sasuke hadn’t seen him in quite some time, but the older man hadn’t changed a bit. The only real difference from the old days was that he’d stopped hiding his left eye with his forehead band. His silver hair growing out in all directions and the detached look on his face were the same as always

Naruto's Story: Family Day; Shino's interlude 3
Even if we presuppose that Kakashi was available and Sasuke knows his combat power, there are other reasons why he'll most likely fall short of being a desirable member of the rescue team.
1. The first gate renders its users weakened and barely capable of moving. Kakashi quickly becomes a liability over a boost that's not exactly stomp level.
2. The others offer things that Kakashi simply doesn't have. Gaara can fly and fly others - something needed against flying opponents, Chojuro has his dura neg/poison attacks, Kurotsuchi has her sealing jutsu and Darui, well, he has kenjutsu (redundant but that's 3/4). Not to mention that they were regarded as being extremely capable taijutsu users by momoshiki

However, the root of his power existed in absorbing the jutsu of others. Taijutsu wasn’t something that could be
externally released, so it also wasn’t something that could be sucked in.
Unfortunately, the four in front of him were shinobi who were extremely first class in taijutsu as well as everything
else.

Why would kakashi offer himself/Sasuke take him along even with a 5x speed advantage when they can take a well coordinated team with potent skill sets and a very large power advantage (Kakashi is only GT with one attack while Gaara's entire kit is GT levels)?

 

[KingTempest]

We say Gokage > Ex Kage because it is a direct statement, kurama avatar is generally ~ to sasuke's susano but if we get a statement that the susano is shattering the KA it does not matter what used to be the norm the official statements are word of god

Kakashi was relative to Shippuden Gokage? Cool, different cast, different scaling idk why you brought that up thinking it is a relevant point cuz its not

That is not a direct statement. It says Gokage > rest of the village. But we know that there are exceptions. The Sannin. The gate users. We not scaling Tsunade above 8th Gate Guy now are we?

Kakashi is still technically a Gokage, he just dropped cause Naruto's a Gokage now. Kakashi wasn't stronger than Naruto or Sasuke for that decade he was Gokage.

Sasuke ain't Gokage either. You wanna scale Mei over Sasuke?

Like there's a fine line between "technical scaling" and "common sense" and this thread is void of the latter when you use statements with exceptions and try to find loopholes around it.

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

wasnt the sealing incomplete? meanwhile shikamaru's stuff don't require a full on process? you are using jutsu with more limitations to dismiss a jutsu with less ones? huh

Kakashi doesn't have any binding Jutsu you are making one up just now, we have no way to compare the limitations of a possible imaginary binding Jutsu that Kakashi might have.

Idt sasuke even used it in the manga isnt that for fluff? anyways we know ap isnt important as seen with my examples, if someone resists a jutsu what do we say about them? they have resistance, simple omg there you go bringing six paths rubbbish into this, did you not read what I said? and it chakra based cuz its ninjutsu but not power based, it just gives naruto resistance, you wanna argue naruto can get out that means it MUST be ap related?

Except Naruto who could break Shikamaru's but can't break Momoshiki's shadow paralysis.

momoshiki kicked his face and sent naruto flying, a stronger force got binded by the shadow paralysis and was forced to absorb it, kinshiki as well wasnt able to harm sarada and sasuke, you dont need god like ninjutsu to deal with them you just need convenient low tier ninjutsu and a bit of intelligence, assuming kakashi has tons of basic jutsu to give an edge, emphasis on giving edge or advantage, do not misquote me, assuming he has good enough jutsu to give tactical advantages from having one thousand different jutsu is a sound logical assumption instead of the orochimaru edo nonsense, you cant prove they have the neccessary stats to be worth bringing either

Tenten has the tools she actually has a sealing Jutsu that could potentially work and she wasn't even a possibility, nor even Sasuke using those were even considered, we know she was in Konoha and so we're the tools, that kid that fought Boruto using gum also could use it has a binding Jutsu.

next time please read what I say, when there's conflicting scenarios the logical assumption is one that allows both to coexist especially if the feats are shown repeatedly to not need ap relevance, shikadai's chakra is actual rubbish compared to shikamaru & jura and it yet it worked, point dismissed

You are literally defending a Jutsu that you don't even know if it exists, and if we don't know how can you even guarantee Sasuke knows about it to consider him an option.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That is not a direct statement. It says Gokage > rest of the village. But we know that there are exceptions. The Sannin. The gate users. We not scaling Tsunade above 8th Gate Guy now are we?

Kakashi is still technically a Gokage, he just dropped cause Naruto's a Gokage now. Kakashi wasn't stronger than Naruto or Sasuke for that decade he was Gokage.

Sasuke ain't Gokage either. You wanna scale Mei over Sasuke?

Like there's a fine line between "technical scaling" and "common sense" and this thread is void of the latter when you use statements with exceptions and try to find loopholes around it.

Tbf it's saying they're the strongest ninja of this age, not of their village, but ig it's fine to interpret it as referring to that general status.

 

[KingTempest]

Tbf it's saying they're the strongest ninja of this age, not of their village, but ig it's fine to interpret it as referring to that general status.

That's damn near the same thing

What we gon say the other 4 Gokage outside of Hashirama were stronger than Madara strictly cause they're Kage and he ain't?
There's specifics to these roles, and just tagging them all to strength is the biggest brute minded thing I've ever seen.

Kakashi giving his Kageship to Naruto doesn't mean that he's now weaker than his co-workers. Like what is this logic. It's shitty.

Kakashi canonically used his gates once in a training exercise and now everybody and their mom needs to scale above it for the worst reasons known to man

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Kakashi
1. He was retired. Retired people don't tend to jump into confrontations unless as a last resort. It's not like he massively out-scales the Gokages (even with a 5x amp) to the point where all hope is lost if he doesn't join.

Kakashi Retsuden; Chapter 1
2. Sasuke himself rarely sees Kakashi, And had not seen kakashi enough to accurately judge his combat capabilities

Naruto's Story: Family Day; Shino's interlude 3
Even if we presuppose that Kakashi was available and Sasuke knows his combat power, there are other reasons why he'll most likely fall short of being a desirable member of the rescue team.
1. The first gate renders its users weakened and barely capable of moving. Kakashi quickly becomes a liability over a boost that's not exactly stomp level.
2. The others offer things that Kakashi simply doesn't have. Gaara can fly and fly others - something needed against flying opponents, Chojuro has his dura neg/poison attacks, Kurotsuchi has her sealing jutsu and Darui, well, he has kenjutsu (redundant but that's 3/4). Not to mention that they were regarded as being extremely capable taijutsu users by momoshiki

Why would kakashi offer himself/Sasuke take him along even with a 5x speed advantage when they can take a well coordinated team with potent skill sets and a very large power advantage (Kakashi is only GT with one attack while Gaara's entire kit is GT levels)?

Do you think this is a mission to retrieve a cat or something? Retired people will join in and give it their level best if it means saving the world from otsutsuki level dangers



For them to make a deduction of saying Gokage are the best crew it is absolutely necessary to have known the exact stats of the contenders otherwise the statement would loose meaning, can you show me scenes of them combatting each Gokage directly to verify their exact physical stats? “Yeah darui is 10c and L5B lemme recruit him for the fight” no

That rubbish doesn’t occur, plot wise it’s necessary they’re aware of the combat capabilities



Guy considered 8 Gates for a sub kaguya level threat, he was ready to die so Kakashi would most definitely consider temporary stat buffs if it means he can do substantial benefit to the shinobi team cuz by the time Momoshiki fused they were useless garbage anyway, they were even bigger liabilities than a hypothetical version of Kakashi



What benefit does flight add? Nothing

Kakashi likely has some dura neg/binding jutsu or something that gives advantage given his extremely large bag I doubt he would have fodder powers



He also can induce paralysis via his lightning attacks





Regarded where? The part where they show case their inability to harm momo? lol



Their power sucks, physical might is a non factor, a 5x speed advantage allows blitzing and avoiding attacks, think of it like this, darui was the most useless yes? Instead of him take Kakashi, Kakashi distracts Kinshiki while Kurotsuchi does her thing, he doesn’t risk actual death if he’s faster or he can save others from being hit by them



As opposed darui’s contribution which is…..nothing

 

[Samlex1234]

I wasn't gonna get involved, but no.

Why would this push the Gokage above an ex Gokage? Kakashi not being Hokage anymore doesn't now mean that he just lost all of his strength.

This is like saying after Hiruzen gave his Hokageship to Minato, he's now weaker than every other member of the Gokage. That's just... bad

Besides the fact that Kakashi was on the level of the Gokage in the war in base even without the gates.

I can see everyone's hellbent on scaling everyone above 5x Kakashi, but some of these methods of doing so are just... shitty

The Gokage being labeled ‘the strongest’ during their time doesn’t inherently mean they’re the strongest because they are the Gokage. Using Kakashi’s War Arc feats to argue against current scaling is irrelevant, as the power levels and standards have evolved significantly since then. The current generation has surpassed the previous ones, and this progression is evident in the scaling chain, which is far beyond the War Arc.

The Gokage of this generation scales to threats like Kaguya, a level of power the previous generations could only dream of. However, the current generation operates on an entirely different level, with explicit feats and evidence to back it up. They’re capable of matching individuals like Kinshiki and Momoshiki, who are at least comparable to Kaguya, proving how far the power ceiling has risen.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

That is not a direct statement. It says Gokage > rest of the village. But we know that there are exceptions. The Sannin. The gate users. We not scaling Tsunade above 8th Gate Guy now are we?

Kakashi is still technically a Gokage, he just dropped cause Naruto's a Gokage now. Kakashi wasn't stronger than Naruto or Sasuke for that decade he was Gokage.

Sasuke ain't Gokage either. You wanna scale Mei over Sasuke?

Like there's a fine line between "technical scaling" and "common sense" and this thread is void of the latter when you use statements with exceptions and try to find loopholes around it.

The statement is also referring to current era gokage not war arc gokage, 8 Gates wont be factored in because it’s like Roshi’s moon attack, it’s not combat applicable, you don’t use it under natural combat circumstances, Guy’s lower gates are combat applicable so the statement would include those gates, while first gate was a very simplistic technique to the point where Kakashi is trained enough to use it in non combat situations, he doesn’t shy away from using it thinking it requires grand circumstances, rock climbing is a very casual activity and Kakashi knows it’s easy enough to employ, he then did his business with Sasuke without any problems whatsoever



You can perfectly include something as simple the first gate although now that eight whole gates was used theyd likely consider if 8 Gates can be used, why? Cuz it’s been considered in the past.

8 Gates were treated like some final trump card type ability and directly stated superior to that eras gokage
So the Tsunade argument is rubbish
False equivalence in broad day light