Gogeta blue tier

[CryoTheMayo]

Goku stated Broly 'possibly surpasses' Beerus. Gogeta easily stomped Broly. The novel depicts Gogeta as not using much power.

SSB Gogeta > Held-back SSB Gogeta >> FPSS Broly >/= Beerus

So what is the argument against this? "Beerus's power is in flux". Okay, so? Has his power been updated NOW? Is Goku's claim shown to be incorrect? Is there any evidence that Broly ISN'T comparable to Beerus? There certainly is not evidence against Gogeta easily curbstomping Broly.

So the only argument against 'Possibly 2-C' Gogeta is whether Broly is actually comparable to Beerus and how much of an AP advantage would result in a stomp.

Is Broly comparable to Beerus? Frieza certainly praises Broly's strength as unmatchable. SS Broly is 2.5x GoD Toppo's power (presuming Goku didn't grow even slightly stronger from UIO3, UI and from being fully rested). Goku blatantly states Broly may surpass Beerus. FPSS Broly adapted to, and could tank, dozens of attacks from Gogeta Blue. So what logic or rationale would reject these claims? Nothing. Nothing other than personal bias.

How much of an AP advantage would result in a stomp? The absolute lowest figure in the franchise is Vegeta stomping Dodoria with a 1.1x difference in power level. However, power levels are inconsistent and stupid measures of AP gaps, consider that 50% Frieza could block Goku's X20 Super Kamehameha with a single hand for example or Goku going Kaio-Ken to quickly defeat a heavily weakened Nappa, etc. We also have examples in DBS of characters such as Hit and 17 tanking blows that should be FAR above their power (X10 Goku, Jiren). So there is no consistency to AP stomps when comparing Power Level difference and Multiplier difference. Thus, no argument can be made regarding what an AP stomp multiplier would actually be.

However, as Zamasu argued, Broly has an absurd ability to grow vastly stronger by adapting to his opponents. If the difference between Gogeta Blue and FPSS Broly was less than 2x, FPSS Broly would have adapted and matched Gogeta Blue before he was defeated and nearly killed. So, did FPSS Broly lose his adaptive abilities? Is there any evidence to claim that he did? As far as I can tell, no. He was still growing stronger.

So, overall. There is no argument against Possibly 2-C Gogeta, as presented here in this thread. Most of the arguments here have already been covered in the revision thread itself. While it is fine to express your opinions I would suggest focusing on constructing a singular argument for WHY Gogeta Blue isn't Possibly 2-C.

 

[Huesito88]

So does that mean Jiren and UI Goku are stronger than Broly?

 

[ChocomilkAlex]

Jiren is states to be "The strongest foe in Dragon Ball History" meanwhile Broly is stated to be "The strongest Saiyan." So make of that what you will, but most of the community would agree that Jiren is stronger in the end

 

[ZERO7772]

Jiren was stated to be "The strongest foe in Dragon Ball History" before Broly was a thing. Pretty sure Broly is refred as the "strongest foe" in like 6-7 source and the movie team literally the stakes were too high with Broly so they want to dump down the threat.

The problem is Broly never felt as threatening as Jiren becasue Gogeta victimized him near the end.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Alright, here. Show me where's the proof that Broly has done anything at the level of Jiren, let alone Beerus. It's not possible because like how Broly has been since the 90s, his entirety is built up on hype, not feats.

Second, show me how Goku's word can be trusted. Yeah sure he's a master martial artist and all but this is the same guy who thought U6 era Kaioken Blue would've been enough to take on Beerus in the past. He's already been shown to be unreliable when it comes to gauging Beerus's power. Keep in mind Beerus stayed home because he didn't think he was needed. You'd think a threat to his power would be enough to keep him invested but no. Heck, Whis doesn't even comment on it. We had a harder time accepting Cell's 4-B statement and at least Cell had the benefit of not being wrong before.

 

[Huesito88]

"So make of that what you will, but most of the community would agree that Jiren is stronger in the end"

Most of the community would think of a lot of funny things.

"The strongest Saiyan"

Also where was this stated I think I might have blink and missed it somehow?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Honestly, yes. Jiren and UI Goku should be vastly above Broly as they have the feats to back it up. It takes an hour for Broly to beat down Frieza when it takes Jiren minutes. Combatting UI in itself is a testament to Jiren's strength.

 

[DMB_1]

I honestly think that "at least Low 2-C" is perfectly fine. "Possibly 2-C" just because "lol multipliers" is baseless, considering all of the discussion about the gap between Low 2-C and 2-C we've made in the past.

 

[Huesito88]

"It takes an hour for Broly to beat down Frieza when it takes Jiren minutes."

I thought we agreed it wasn't the same Frieza?

 

[ZERO7772]

Frieza was stronger than the one in ToP and by that logic Toppo would stomp Broly cuz "lol he can one shot Frieza"

People still use this pathetic excuses to downplay Broly? Lets ignore the fact that Goku and Vegeta couldn't hold Broly off for 2 min and Frieza himself think Broly is the strongest guy ever

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

The frieza excuse is just that... An excuse. You are all forgetting Frieza is a lot stronger than he was in the ToP to the point even before Frieza showed up Vegeta thought he was a big threat due to training. Hype or not DBS Broly has a multitude of statements hinting at his power in Legendary or Super Saiyan form, including Frieza's statement.... Literally even the trailers themselves said Gogeta and Broly (when they were in Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue ^ Super Saiyan to Full Power) were regarded as the strongest in history. So they have a lot going for them...

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Cal, what makes Goku's statement so wrong or contradictory? Is it because he's been wrong before? He's he was proven wrong way before but his statement makes sense here. Ssj Broly is already stronger than GoD Toppo so what makes Legendary Broly so fodder compared to Broly. Are you forgetting that Legendary Broly is potentially on par or even superior to ssg Gogeta? That same Gogeta who's stronger than blue Goku in base. Nothing contradicts Broly being stronger than Beerus especially when all the promotional material points to Broly as the strongest opponent period.

As for the others who oppose this, Gogeta blue is rated as possibly 2-C for a reason. It's because it's possible he's superior to the combination of Beerus and Champa who can perform a 2-C feat together. It's not like we're taking a baseline character and multiplying it by 2. It's like no one read through the revisions and apparently no one knows what the he'll possibly means. What arbitrary nonsense.

 

[RashFaustinho]

Frankly, I wouldn't ignore Goku's statement about Broly being "possibly stronger then Beerus". It wouldn't be right, DBS is REALLY but REALLY vague with these kind of things, if we had to nitpick which statements are true and which aren't you'd go crazy.


That said, I still think that Gogeta being 2x Gods, even """possibly""", is pure utter arbitrary nonsense based on nothing less than pure stomp hype. When multiple people, even the ones that are fine with this tiering, agreed that power levels, multipliers and scaling are inconsistent as hell in this series.

Something so arbitrarty to this degree shouldn't be allowed, like, at all.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Don't forget Broly being relatively close to Gogeta Blue means he's 25,000x blue Goku.

 

[Huesito88]

Which means nothing with the discussion here.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Which means nothing with the discussion here.

No it's for people who believe that Legendary Broly is close to blue Gogeta which is either absurd wank or humongous downplay.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Rashi what exactly says that Gogeta isn't 2x greater than Broly?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

DBS isn't vague about anything. The series is as blunt as Goku's fists.

I don't recall the Frieza statement but even if it were there, having trained and gotten stronger isn't a "get out of logic free" card. Nothing and I mean nothing implies that Frieza got stronger to the point where he's GoD Toppo level. And ridicule me all you want for thinking that. Challenge it with an argument than saying "We already debunked that" or "you're downplaying" or anything like that. No other series gets to say "I got stronger" with no other feats to get away with an insane buff. Frieza's fearless in the Broly movie. Deal with it. Nothing puts anything in the Broly movie well above endgame ToP other than a single statement of hype of someone who's been unreliable with this kind of stuff before and even then he said probably.

And no, I didn't read through the revisions because everything brought up in it was brought up before years ago and disregarded, so I don't know what's changed since then. And no that doesn't devalue my arguments.

 

[Huesito88]

Where were you Cal when we decided that current Frieza stomps Toppo?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Somewhere else, but it's BS. Imagine getting shit on by someone and having no feats to back up getting stronger to such an extent but people still say that you do.

Mewtwo's constantly said to be the strongest Pokémon, but he's mid-high tier in Legendaries. If this were Dragon Ball, that statement would be enough to scale him to at least the Lunar Duo.

 

[ProudLearner]

I agreed on At Least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C as a Super Saiyan Blue for Gogeta because that was agreed on the thread.

@AKM sama should add what was agreed on that thread.

As for UI Goku, UBW Jire, FPSSJ Broly, Champa and Beerus they should get At Least Low-2C which what I proposed on that thread because I knew this was going to be a problem. This charaters are confirmed possible stronger than Beerus and should be high into the Low-2C which is unknown how high they are and thats why At Least should be given to them.

 

[Antvasima]

So should we change Gogeta's "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" rating to "At least Low 2-C" or just "Low 2-C"?

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

I think just Low 2-C is fine.

 

[ZERO7772]

Only angle and above should get 2-C rating. Everone else shold just be low 2-C

 

[CryoTheMayo]

DBS isn't vague about anything. The series is as blunt as Goku's fists.
I don't recall the Frieza statement but even if it were there, having trained and gotten stronger isn't a "get out of logic free" card. Nothing and I mean nothing implies that Frieza got stronger to the point where he's GoD Toppo level. And ridicule me all you want for thinking that. Challenge it with an argument than saying "We already debunked that" or "you're downplaying" or anything like that. No other series gets to say "I got stronger" with no other feats to get away with an insane buff. Frieza's fearless in the Broly movie. Deal with it. Nothing puts anything in the Broly movie well above endgame ToP other than a single statement of hype of someone who's been unreliable with this kind of stuff before and even then he said probably.

And no, I didn't read through the revisions because everything brought up in it was brought up before years ago and disregarded, so I don't know what's changed since then. And no that doesn't devalue my arguments.

SS Broly is 50x SSB Goku, due to stacking Wrath and Super saiyan. Director Nagamine confirmed that SSBE is equivalent to Goku's KKX20 Blue. In other words, SS Broly is, at minimum, 2.5x the power of GoD Toppo. GoD Toppo had some difficulty but managed to KO Frieza in about a minute of fighting. SS Broly couldn't knock Frieza out, even once, in over an hour.

So while there is argument on whether or not Frieza is GoD Toppo-level, there is no argument that Frieza is vastly superior to how he was in the ToP.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Somewhere else, but it's BS. Imagine getting shit on by someone and having no feats to back up getting stronger to such an extent but people still say that you do.
Mewtwo's constantly said to be the strongest Pokémon, but he's mid-high tier in Legendaries. If this were Dragon Ball, that statement would be enough to scale him to at least the Lunar Duo.

Except Goku stated Broly is comparable to Beerus in power. Gogeta effortlessly stomped Broly, hell Gogeta wasn't even hit once by Broly after going Blue, to memory. So Gogeta is Possibly 2-C for scaling far above Broly who scales to around Beerus.

The argument regarding LB Jiren and UI Goku is up for debate, honestly. I personally think Jiren is stronger than UI Goku and FPSS Broly but I'm not sure if I would claim he is 2-C material via that scaling. This is due to the logic of how Jiren matched Ultra Instinct via brute force, overpowering, etc whereas UI Goku mostly had to use counters to damage Jiren. The gap between UI Goku and Jiren in AP probably isn't huge but...it's certainly present.

Also, AKM made all the GoDs comparable (which I heavily disagreed with) so, by that rationale? Base Jiren and UIO3 Goku should be treated as Beerus-level. LB Jiren and UI Goku would be far above that. I disagree with that heavily but...yeah, if that's what the wiki is going to go along with...that argument has no opposition.

So, debating UI Goku and LB Jiren scaling will have to be factored based on how we scale the GoDs and what evidence in the anime would override the magazine scan, that claims UI Goku 'possibly' surpasses Beerus.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, the angels will keep their current rating, but I would appreciate staff input regarding what we should do with Gogeta.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I'll TL;DR what I want to see in the opposition argument:

It is undeniable that Gogeta Blue easily curbstomped FPSS Broly. It is also undeniable that Goku claimed Broly is at least comparable to Beerus-level.

• Did Gogeta Blue fight with his true power, or was he holding back? (Evidence points to holding back, considering his lighthearted and casual fighting, along with, to memory, some statements in the novel that describe Gogeta as casual)

• Does Broly scale to Beerus-level?

These two points in particular are what holds the "Gogeta scales to 2-C" argument together. If Gogeta stomped a Beerus-level opponent while holding back, there is no argument that Possibly 2-C isn't a reasonable stance.

 

[RashFaustinho]

So should we change Gogeta's "At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-C" rating to "At least Low 2-C" or just "Low 2-C"?

This. "At least Low 2-C" is the fairiest option IMHO

If people want to believe he is 2-C, they are free to do so

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

@Cryo, you're actually right about that. Whis himself said a God of Destruction should not fight a God of Destruction and suppressed Jiren is stronger than a God of Destruction.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yes, so either Jiren and Goku both scale to at least Possibly 2-C for surpassing the GoDs, which are scaled as comparable based on AKM's judgement...or how GoDs are judged should be adjusted.

 

[Antvasima]

I need more staff input in order for this discussion to become concluded.

 

[ZERO7772]

Just remove 2-C from Gogeta and spare yourself all the headache Ant...

 

[The_2nd_Existential_Seed]

For those hinking Goku , Vegeta, or even Frieza didn't become much stronger between the end of ToP and Broly Movie...

Goku and Vegeta both agreed that the power of a Saiyan is Limitless ... Literally in the Broly Movie Goku states that as of now he's nearing his limit when before he didn't think he was anywhere near reaching his limit ... So Goku then (as of Base to SSB) was a lot stronger. Makes sense with all the limit breaking he did after Post-UIO 2nd and then MUI.... It makes a lot of sense. Where he is in comparison to UIO 3rd to MUI... That is debatable...

 

[ProudLearner]

Here is my proposal:

Beerus and Champa - At Least Low-2C

FPSSJBroly - At Least Low-2C

BUW Jiren - At Least Low-2C

MUI Goku - At Least Low-2C

Gogeta SSJBlue - At least Low-2C, Possibly 2-C

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Just remove 2-C from Gogeta and spare yourself all the headache Ant...

Uh. No. This entire thread is regarding Gogeta Blue's tiering and, thus far, no argument has being brought up that hasn't already been settled in the revision thread that Gogeta became 2-C. Downgrading a character for no reason other than "I don't think it's right" is just plain wrong.

 

[AKM sama]

Goku has a pretty good idea what's considered GoD level as he has fought Jiren 1-on-1. His statement about Broly is made with that in mind. I don't see why it would be unreliable.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Because Goku has been unreliable about this before @AKM. I see zero reason to take a hype statement with any bit of seriousness when there's no feat to back it up. Nobody else mentions this other than Frieza's hype statement about nobody being able to beat him. Again, refer to my Mewtwo statement because the more this goes on the more I believe that.

 

[ProudLearner]

Because Goku has been unreliable about this before @AKM. I see zero reason to take a hype statement with any bit of seriousness when there's no feat to back it up. Nobody else mentions this other than Frieza's hype statement about nobody being able to beat him. Again, refer to my Mewtwo statement because the more this goes on the more I believe that.

The feat is Beerus + Champa = 2-C

Frieza says Broly is stronger.

Goku says Broly might have surpassed Beerus.

Comparing different verses to bring an argumnent makes no sense.

 

[ProudLearner]

Goku is a Master Martial Artist so his statement is valid.