God = Source = Presence = Overvoid Merging Profiles

[Sandman31]

Anyway, I agree with merging the Source, Presence and the Overvoid

 

[Hykuu]

thnx

By the way, would it be justified to say the Oversoul encompasses the Endless aswell?

 

[By_My_Neck]

Well, the Void beyond all Voids, including every Multiverse, every Creation included, as well as all versions of the Endless in every Multiverse created by Super-Celestials, is transcended by the Oversoul.

 

[By_My_Neck]

Even Matteis implied that the Source and the Presence are the same.

In Spectre 2001, Darkseid told the Spectre that he is a necessary evil, deemed necessary by a more powerful being than Spectre himself. And since this same story has Presence as Top Dog, this also means that Four Different DC Writers (including Matteis) agree Presence = Source.

 

[Hykuu]

The Spectre couldn't comprehend The Source the issue after, and only comprehend what he needed to, as it took a form to suit him. Also, that's a pretty bad equivocation.

The Void beyond All Voids was never stated to be transcended by Oversoul. The Oversoul is the spirit of god which unifies us all and is us all

 

[By_My_Neck]

No, I'm not talking about that old Ostrander Source Spectre thing.

I'm talking about when Darkseid implied to Spectre, that the Presence perceives Darkseid as a necessary element of his Creation. And Darkseid only sees the Source as superior to him, so again, Presence = Source.

 

[Hykuu]

Yes, I am aware dude, that's what I was referencing, Spectre vol 4 issue 20 or 19 I think it was, when he saw the source as a giant green lantern battery

I don't think you understand how you're going in circles, If darkseid was referring to the source, then you can't apply the presence in the equation

 

[Joemungousaur]

I'm agree with this.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Sandman31 seems to make sense.

He should also feel free to create an extra Lucifer profile based on the current comicbook run.

 

[Sandman31]

thnx
By the way, would it be justified to say the Oversoul encompasses the Endless aswell?

Nope. In DeMatteis Cosmology The Endless wont be part of the Oversoul or the Universal Spirit. Since The Endless are aspect of existence, they will be the "illusions" that prevents the soul (atman) from its goal of reaching the Oversoul.

DeMatteis is hindu and a meher baba devotee. He just borrows concept from Hinduism/Meher Babas philosophy and renames them. Sometimes he doesnt even bother to rename then, which is the case here. You'll understand DeMatteis cosmology more if you check out Meher Baba's philosophies

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Speaks

God Speaks takes a strictly nondualist approach in explaining the universe and its purpose, carefully clarifying and syncretising terms as it takes the reader through the spiritual journey of the atma (soul) through its imagined evolution, reincarnatio, and involution, to its goal, its origin, of Paramatma (Over-soul). The journey winds up being one from God-unconscious ("Beyond Beyond State of God") to God-conscious ("Beyond State of God"). Cohen summarizes, "In elaborate detail he explains the universe is an arena where infinite existence, identifying with the apparently limited soul, becomes more and more conscious of its oneness with itself as the Over-Soul."[6]


The Oversoul also doesnt transcend the Void. In DeMatteis cosmology, there is only God. Plurality and individualism is just an illusion. The goal of every being is to reach infinite oneness

 

[Sandman31]

I think that Sandman31 seems to make sense.
He should also feel free to create an extra Lucifer profile based on the current comicbook run.

This probably needs to be discussed more. The Sandman Universe rebooted A LOT of stories.

 

[Hykuu]

The Oversoul encompasses everything and everyone in existence though, it's God's spirit, after everyone lives throughout enough lifetimes, they go beyond spirit, and become one with God again. That's how I remember it, also I am fully aware of Dematteis' philosophy, hell, I even made a tweet about his philosophy and tried going indepth in it.

but anyway, I digress, it's pretty vague tbh

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I don't see anything wrong with creating a new key for Lucifer and Tim Hunter based on the Sandman Universe stories. Why not?

 

[By_My_Neck]

Is it wrong to scale Lucifer's own Morningstar powers to the Brahman Presence?

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Why would you do that? Just use its solo feats. It's not like they aren't powerful enough on their own.

 

[Sandman31]

@Hykuu The Oversoul encompasses everything and everyone in existence though, it's God's spirit, after everyone lives throughout enough lifetimes, they go beyond spirit, and become one with God agai

Thats exactly why the Endless wont be part of the Oversoul. They would be the illusion to keep the soul from reaching God. The reason why I said no was because this means that the Endless will be "nonexistent", theyre just illusions to distract the everyone from reaching the oversoul. Theyre not part of it because they technically dont exist

 

[Hykuu]

All the illusions are still linked to God when all their masks of identity are torn away, it's like one of Prime Spectre's jobs to remove said masks and make people go to heaven/become one with god

 

[Sandman31]

Yeah, linked with God, if God is the Projectionist then the illusion will be the projection. It is linked with god but not in the same way that the soul/atman is

 

[Hykuu]

Yes, but all the projections have the same connection with God, even Maya herself, who embodies the projection, all of them remain as extensions and fragments of God, I don't see the difference tbh

 

[Sandman31]

Yes. Theyre both born from God. But what youre asking isnt about God but about the Oversoul, the Over-Soul isnt synonymous with God. The Oversoul refers to the connection of the human soul to god.

 

[Hykuu]

I always thought the Oversoul was defined as God's Soul throughout Fate 1998 and Spectre Issue 10 Vol 4?

Also, It's not limited to Humans only really, it applies to every being and race, even Maya, so I think even the Endless would have the same "Soul -- Oversoul" connection

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Guys, is this discussion really important? Whether DeMatteis was adopting Hindu cosmology or adapting it, this feels like a stray from the topic.

 

[Hykuu]

k, I guess we can continue this discussion on a message wall or discord or something, anyways, I think basically everyone agrees with the original post now

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I'd far too early to definitely tell what is going on wit Sandman Univers.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I do vaguely remember there being some thing about Tim Hunter's current universe maybe being tied to the older universe with hocus pocus screwing it all up... And I believe Dan Watters said something about Lucifer being a fractal entity. He borrows concepts introduced in Sandman, Mike Carey's Lucifer, and the Lucifer television show of all places... Maybe we could hold off on giving them profiles for at least a little longer. Weirder things have happened.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with waiting with creating new profiles as of yet.

 

[Kepekley23]

@NES

Hinduism is a good analogy for what is taking place here. According to the Puranas, all Gods are their own cosubstantial persons, each with their own separate personality, but they are all "one in Brahma". So they're all facets of one singular God, much like the Overvoid, the Presence and the Source are separate persons of separate personalities that form "God"

 

[Sorari]

I know the Lucifer universe is the same as the Sandman universe, but are they the same as the DC universe? I know Sandman started in DC (because Vertigo wasn't a thing yet) but it eventually turned into its own continuity. With the occasional crossover and cameo, but should they be treated as the same?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

My point is that much like in Hinduism all Avatars of Vishnu are still Vishnu, we can still treat what they do as differently.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

That's a fair enough point. I always considered the reveal that The Dark Presence wasn't really The Presence to be indicative of the idea that The Presence was never really killed in the first place. The Holly Black arc certainly had its fair share of continuity errors, but it was especially odd to me that The Presence's final words to Lucifer were seemingly revoked so carelessly during her run.

 

[Sandman31]

I do vaguely remember there being some thing about Tim Hunter's current universe maybe being tied to the older universe with hocus pocus screwing it all up... And I believe Dan Watters said something about Lucifer being a fractal entity. He borrows concepts introduced in Sandman, Mike Carey's Lucifer, and the Lucifer television show of all places... Maybe we could hold off on giving them profiles for at least a little longer. Weirder things have happened.

Seems pretty clear that its a reboot. Neil and the writers have stated multiple times that theyre rebooting the series. Seriously, in every interview they always make sure to slam the point that the Sandman Universe is all about Sandman and not other runs or interpretation

Heres another statement by Dan Watters about Sandman Universe

Dan Watters:That was our big thing, to go back to Sandman. So what you were saying before about it starting in Lux as well. Lux is in Sandman. The Mazikeen is in our book because she's from Sandman. These are things that aren't from the other Lucifer comics, they're from Sandman. That's kind of what we wanted — it's all still rooted in Sandman. It's a Sandman Universe Lucifer, rather than from any other interpretation.

Watters: Yeah, and then he sort of swoops in. The summit was amazing too. We spent whole days just talking about what we want to do with these books. Breaking them down and building them from the ground up

Dan Watters said theyre leaving the previous runs to stand on its https://mobile.twitter.com/DanPGWatters/status/1184929519054020608

Lucifer being a fractal has nothing to do with canon. Dan Watters in the same interview said that theyre ignoring all other interpretations and will focus on Sandman What Dan Watters meant when he said that Lucifer is a fractal figure is this.

Dan Watters: the ideas is that the first one is the striking down of Lucifer by Saint Michael the second one is from a piece of Irish folklore, and the third one is definitely nodding towards Edgar Allen Poe. So the idea is that you have Lucifer as a religious figure, you've got him as folkloric figure — that version of the devil is very different generally speaking than the religious figure of Satan. Those two never really got combined until Paradise Lost. The idea of Satan as the ruler of hell who is also the angel Lucifer who fell from heaven, that was entirely Milton. He slammed those two characters together and said, "Okay, this is one being now." And so powerful was Paradise Lost that we've just run with that from there on. So that entirely comes from a piece of poetry. And that kind of goes into the third one which is the horror, fiction version, which probably is what most of us today deal with more than any of the other versions. So it's definitely a case of wanting to look at all the different versions of Lucifer or Satan and try and amalgamate them. Or not even amalgamate them, but allow all versions to have the freedom to go into all those different arenas, which is something I was really interested in. It's almost a little bit like with Sandman and when you see Dream from someone else's perspective

 

[Sandman31]

But yeah, we shouldnt rush things

 

[ClassicNESfan]

I'd never seen that Tweet before. That's even more confusing. He says "All of that stuff happened, but this stuff happened too." It sounds like he expects us to somehow consider them both canon at the same time? Things get really funky in DC's highest layers. There are stories that suggest seemingly contradictory events can both happen at the same time depending on the perspective of the viewer. I do think that ultimately the older incarnation of Lucifer has more direct connections to other DC works, but this version hasn't been around for particularly long or had a chance to establish himself yet. A Sandman Universe key couldn't hurt anybody- and the same should be done for Tim Hunter in that case- but it would be really nice if we got some sort of a connection between them all later down the line. Like when Lucifer's "avatars" appeared in that one issue? For a moment I was thinking that would be the bit that brought it all together, like we'd see Carey's Lucifer among the different interpretations, but that didn't happen. Either way, I'm not really pushing for either side. I just think that there could be some value in waiting for Sandman Universe to give us an answer. Maybe it won't, but it's not going anywhere. I'm not suggesting a Sandman Universe key would harm anybody. I'm just acknowledging value in playing slow and steady.

 

[Sandman31]

"All of that stuff happened, but this stuff happened too"

What he means by that is that hes not touching Careys Lucifer and his doing hes own thing.

Hes not saying that we should consider both as canon, he said that Careys Lucifer still happened, but now its not connected and is just a stand alone thing.

Doubt that Careys interpretation would appear, hes mostly talking about Lucifers different version in folklore, religion and literature. He stated many times that he'll be ignoring Carey and Holly Blacks Lucifer

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Hey, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying there is a certain amount of ambiguity in that quote. Sandman Universe does have more than a few problems connecting to other Vertigo and DC stories in general. Lucifer is not alone on this matter. Heck, it's called "Sandman Universe" you can just feel Neil Gaiman's deep desire to be his own separate thing in that. And it's not like DC would stop him either. Neil Gaiman has one of those coveted "Do Whatever You Want Without Question" cards. But I still don't think there's any harm in waiting to see how it all turns out. I don't think it's a crazy position to have.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I just finished binge-reading all 13 issues of the current run. Overall I actually liked it to an extent. Had very interesting ideas.

However, the notion that this has "Ignored everything / retconned everything" is rather... Skewed. All that was said on interviews was that they wanted to make a run that could stand on its own and did not require the reader to have read nearly 100 previous issues of Lucifer.

 

[ClassicNESfan]

Could we at the very least leave discussing possible Sandman Universe keys for a different thread? God Himself hasn't really made an appearance in the new run, so Lucifer (2018) shouldn't be super relevant here.

 

[By_My_Neck]

Matt, how many times was the Source and the Presence were linked?


Only 3 stories?

 

[Sandman31]

However, the notion that this has "Ignored everything / retconned everything" is rather... Skewed. All that was said on interviews was that they wanted to make a run that could stand on its own and did not require the reader to have read nearly 100 previous issues of Lucifer.

Neil himself said that they rebooted the series. Dan Watters said that Neil asked if he can recreate Lucifer. He said that Neil and him spent whole days talking about breaking it down and building it from the ground up.

He even said that they removed everything that is not from Sandman.

RN I'm 100 percent that they rebooted them.

 

[Sandman31]

Could we at the very least leave discussing possible Sandman Universe keys for a different thread? God Himself hasn't really made an appearance in the new run, so Lucifer (2018) shouldn't be super relevant here.

This would still affect the profile even if God hasnt appeared yet. If the Sandman Universe are reboots then that means the Sandman splits into 2 storylines after the series and both of them cant be canon.