God of War: Ragnarok Discussion Thread

[Omegabronic]

It's just Resistance.


No. EE and resisting it doesn't equate to AP anymore.

I mean, it depends, "Erasing" and "destroying" a tier 2 and up structure are fundamentaly the same thing

 

[KLOL506]

I mean, it depends, "Erasing" and "destroying" a tier 2 and up structure are fundamentaly the same thing

Still hax and you'd need a massive amount of evidence to prove it scales to someone else's hax or physical stats.

 

[KLOL506]

Uhhh... I see. At least 2 characters scale on top of that.

That's because they exist above said realm and have higher power and so on than them.

 

[Georredannea15]

Still hax and you'd need a massive amount of evidence to prove it scales to someone else's hax or physical stats.

I agree with this. After all, only primordial forces can resist it, and Mimir says that even the gods will be consumed by its power.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Atreus vs Thrud

 

[Planck69]

Atreus should have his "can damage Hraezlyr" justification removed from his first key, since Dragons are 2-C.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Atreus should have his "can damage Hraezlyr" justification removed from his first key, since Dragons are 2-C.

Does he ever even damage Hraezlyr? I don't remember that being the case

Atreus' Pre-Godhood Realisation key needs to be reworked in general. The justifications are outdated and bad, and the Trolls/Ogres/Ancients that he supposedly scales to don't have actual Small Building level calcs yet

 

[Eseseso]

Atreus should have his "can damage Hraezlyr" justification removed from his first key, since Dragons are 2-C.

Agreed.

They're 2-C cuz of Heimdall implying that one can kill him, is that correct?

 

[Eseseso]

If GoW ever does Mayan/Aztec mythology, I wonder if the main villain will be Lord Mictlan, the God of War, and whether he'll be anything like this:

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

They're 2-C cuz of Heimdall implying that one can kill him, is that correct?

That and Baldur is one of the few gods powerful enough to tame dragons

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

strongest anti GOW debater aka run to another site to cope about another person's take because you're two scared to insult them to the face.

That person doesn't deserve that Yor pfp with that dumb takes holy f***
I also bet this guy is very disliked as well

 

[JohnCenaNation]

It's been a long time since I have decided to do a debunk blog. After reading the God of War blog linked in God of War profile, there is a lot of problem with these.

To summarize everything right off the bat, the cosmology established in the new game is that each of the pantheons that exist within the God of War universe do indeed inhabit an allocated area within the planet Earth, but within the borders of said area, they somehow still contain entire realities and universes within.

Half true, at best.

They contain their own realities, but those realities are not universal in scope.

Word of God: The Meaning of Geography​

To summarize everything right off the bat, the cosmology established in the new game is that each of the pantheons that exist within the God of War universe do indeed inhabit an allocated area within the planet Earth, but within the borders of said area, they somehow still contain entire realities and universes within. A short explanation, and I apologize for linking TV Tropes, is that the God of War cosmology evokes this trope: from the outside, it seems small, but from the inside, it is not.
In order to start going into more detail about how it works, we will first link an interview with Cory Barlog regarding Kratos and where he found himself at, which is the first piece of evidence to suggest this interpretation before we dive further into the game's lore and cosmology:

• “The way I see the mythologies (in God of War) is kinda like that Hubble telescope image. That image shows the universe with all its individual galaxies - and each galaxy is a representation of a mythology. You sort of wrap that around the Earth, and in any given moment, all of those mythological belief systems existed. They all deal with the creation myths around their region - it’s just separated by geography.”[1]

As Cory Barlog states, the God of War mythology could be better summarized as being similar to the Hubble Ultra Deep Field image, except you’d have to wrap it up around the Earth. Each of these dots would show the number of mythologies that existed at the same time. All of their creation myths hold true around their region, with it being separated by “geography”.
As we progress with this section, the meaning of geography within the God of War universe will become more clear, but this should already make it apparent that it is not as simple as literal regional borders delimiting each pantheon. If that were the case, the contradictory creation myths would not be able to operate independently of each other, as he explicitly claims is the case. The idea of independent cosmologies, however, fits in perfectly fine with what the Greek Pantheon of God of War showed: a vast plane, with a gigantic mountain where the Gods live towering over the entirety of it, and a dark and murky realm far larger than the upper world existing many miles beneath everything, not to say with an entire universe right above it created by primordial deities. This already proves we can't handwave everything from the past six games as "just Greece". It can't be claimed that the games got retconned either, since the senior director of art and animation at Sony Santa Monica, Bruno Velazquez, has gone forward to say:

• "Why would we (retcon the previous games)? This is the continuation of the saga. Retcons are lazy ways out to continue a story."
• "Poseidon was the God of All Seas, but now he is dead."

This confirms the past games were not retconned in overall scale. Poseidon is still considered the god of all oceans, as opposed to just the God of the Aegean Sea, or something similar.
Moving onto other relevant Word of God confirmations: Matt Sophos, the head writer of the Norse game, replied, similarly to Cory Barlog, that all creation myths and their interpretations exist at the same time, in their own history separate from the linear chronology of real history (Backup image for this here). When asked about it again a full year later, he reinforced his previous answer, stating that the contradictions between each creation story are sorted out mainly via "a combination of geography and the local belief system" (Backup image here).
This implies two different things:

• 1. That there exists a distinction between Earth’s historical time and the fantastical time in which the Gods existed, something that was also stated to be the case by Cory Barlog in my previously-linked videoclip, where he states the Gods lived in a prehistorical, magical time that is separate to the modern history of man.
• 2. That, regardless of the contradictions, all creation stories and their interpretations are equally valid, depending on the area of influence. They're separate belief systems, and are not exactly connected in their creation myths.

We now go back to Bruno Velazquez. About a year or so ago, he was once again confronted with the question of how those universal creation myths can coexist, and his reply was:

• "All mythologies exist - all at once in the world of God of War. All creation stories are valid because all gods and myths are separated geographically. Kratos destroyed the Greek World at the end of God of War 3, and not the "entire" world. This is how it works."[2]

And, more importantly, he was subsequently asked whether the "Greek World" he was talking about referred to just Greece, or to the universe as viewed through the lens of Greek Mythology itself, his response was:

• "Everything related to the Greek World falls under the Greek Pantheon and its creation stories."[3]

In more clear words, the Greek World is the entirety of reality, as viewed from the lens of the Greeks/Greece. In the past God of War games and novelizations, Kratos or the Gods visited many lands outside Greece, such as Persia, Egypt, Libya, the Mediterranean Sea, Italy, and etc, and they were still the dominant force within these locations, which further confirms that, within its boundaries, each pantheon is its own Earth.
The last relevant director to talk about this is Cory Barlog, once again. In the Game Developers Conference of March 2019, he decided to touch on the mythological pantheons' subject, and he resurrected his old analogy about the Ultra Deep Field:

• "What I was talking about was the idea that all the mythologies of the world are kinda like this Hubble Telescope Image. They are like galaxies spread out through a complete universe, and the world is the universe. They are sort of the origin stories of various cultures throughout the world, starting from the beginning of time and stretching all the way out, so at any given time all the mythologies existed together - and currently - and they are simply separated by geography. This is important because some people had the conception that Kratos at the end of God of War III destroyed the world. Well, he destroyed what they believed the world was in Greece, their version of the world. Everybody believed their world was the only world; in fact, we still believe that today."[4]

The highlighted bits clearly establish the idea that the world is shaped by each different mythological belief system, except within its own borders.
As of May 9, 2020, it appears that we finally have direct, no-skirting-around director confirmation of this cosmological model, as per the following exchange that took place with Cory Barlog (Back-up image of tweet here, original tweet here, full tweet archive link here, in case he deactivates again):

• Fan: If the Greek Gods say we created the universe and the Norse ones say we did along with all of the different myths who have different creation stories, which one of those is true?
• Cory Barlog: All of them. They have all carved out their piece of history. When talking about the "universe" though, they are - in my mind - referring to the universes that they themselves have dominion over. The greater "actual" universe has yet to be explored...

So it is 100% confirmed. (Backup image of tweet here)
Click to expand...

Be nice if you could be bothered to even skim the links given to you, when you clearly expect others to read entire thesis papers.

The core of the thread linked is explaining why GoW devs have disqualified themselves from having WoG privileges.

In-Game Distinction​

Freya told Kratos in-game when they first met that she knew he was a God, but not of “this realm”. And, similarly, the official God of War promotional page also stated that the Norse Pantheon of God of War was a “new realm”[5] (The official God of War page also states this, here[6]), implying that the Greek Pantheon was also considered a separate realm in and of itself. This is important, because Santa Monica Studios has clarified that geographical regions and realms are not interchangeable terms. Which means that when Freya states Kratos is not “from this realm”, she isn’t saying that he is from another country (Greece) or continent, she is telling him that she is aware he is from another "world" altogether.
This view is firmly established in the game by Mimir himself, who acts as the Word of God since he has an in-depth amount of knowledge on the gods and tales of the Norse:

• “Odin is extremely clever, you see. Nearly as clever as he thinks he is. And he’s a collector of prophecies. If it’s about the future, he adds it to his collection. Helps him style himself as all-seeing and all-knowing. But of course, the idea is control. Control of the future, control of his fate. He’d control every realm of every land in every world if he could.”[7]

As stated here, if Odin could, he would control all the realms within every world and every land, which tells us that the separate mythological pantheons that exist in the God of War universe are each considered parallel worlds in comparison to each other.
Mimir’s status within the series by itself already brings us evidence in this regard, because Mimir himself is not from the Norse Pantheon! In fact, Mimir is none other than Puck/Robin Goodfellow, as he states in the game himself. He strayed from what he refers to his "homeland" and arrived on the Norse Realms. Yet, despite being originally from a separate mythology (most likely the Celtic Mythology, due to evidence that will be shown later within this section), Mimir constantly tells Kratos and the audience about large-scale tales from the Norse myths, such as Ymir, and he reinforces himself that Ragnarok would be the end of the entire “damn world” if it ever took place.

But, although these statements all by themselves already tell a lot about the complex Pantheon relationship and how it works, the greatest amount of evidence in this regard is independent of all that, since we actually have a direct portrayal and statement regarding of what is needed to travel to other pantheons, and what exactly the act entails:

This triptych by itself conveys a lot of the lore we learn in-game. The four symbols circled in red in each corner represent the specific Pantheons which exist in the God of War world, aside from the Norse myths. From top to bottom, we have the Eye of Horus, which symbolizes the Egyptian mythology, the Omega, which symbolizes the Greek pantheon (we have been there, done that), the Yin-Yang balance, symbolizing the Shinto myths, and lastly the Triskelion, which symbolizes the Celtic culture which Mimir is most likely from.
In the center of the image, we have a depiction of the god Tyr holding the Unity Stone while he is on one of the branches of the World Tree Yggdrasil, in the cosmic void located in the Realm Between Realms, said void being filled with galaxies and stars, which symbolizes the act of traveling to other pantheons. As Mimir states when he recognizes the Unity Stone, its possession is what enables Tyr to travel between the nine realms and even other lands, to boot:

• “That’s the Unity Stone! If Tyr possessed this, that explains how he could visit all the other realms, and other lands, to boot."[8]

This firmly establishes that traveling to other pantheons was considered more difficult than just visiting other realms - with the realms themselves being alternate dimensions, as the blog will explain in great detail in the other sections - which, while difficult, was still fairly mundane if you possessed the Bifrost.
Thus, we conclude from this section the following points:

• There are, at least, five mythological pantheons in the God of War universe. Each one is located inside the Earth, but within their own borders they are colossal in size, with entire realities contained within them and with the own worldview of the people reflected at the time. Therefore, this effectively refutes any sort of argument regarding cosmic retcons.

Click to expand...

Traveling between pantheons is not hard. Normal humans can literally just get in a boat.

Hellenic World​

This is the setting for the original Hellenic saga of the God of War series and the homeland of Kratos himself. Despite it seemingly being a small section of the world as we know it, it in fact houses a far greater reality within its humble borders as we will soon see. Before we get into describing the various dimensions and parts of the Grecian World, we must first establish the world as we know it.

Theogony​

In the beginning, before the age of Olympus and even the Titans, there was a war waged between the first beings that existed in the Greek World, the Primordials, who were in turn sired by Chaos herself. This battle was waged "for an eternity" between the personifications of fundamental aspects of the world itself. And it was in this battle that the universe came into being, when the Primordial of the Oceans, Ceto struck Uranus and spawned the universe from his body as a result.[9] Supported by how he's referred to as the father of the universe by one of his children, Gyges,[10] multiple[11] times[11].
Eventually, Uranus achieved victory in the great war and came to claim dominion over all of creation. Uranus's status as the father and creator of the universe is extremely relevant to the scaling because Uranus himself ended up being defeated and overthrown by none other than Cronos himself, identical to myth, in a battle described by the developers to be "of cosmic scale". Further supported by Cory Barlog's interview in the 2018 Comic-Con Panel, where they showed various concept arts of Kratos, and one of them states that Kratos's bloodline is cursed by the cycle of patricide,[12] a cycle of sons killing their fathers that "traces back to the very beginning of time", and it starts with Cronos, whose birth coincided with that of time.
The Primordials themselves dwarf the entirety of the universe in size, considering that not only was the universe itself spawned as a consequence of one of their battles, but so were the galaxies inside of them.[13] Supporting the fact that they're of this level of power, Nyx, one of said Primordials, controls a mirror dimension to the real world that's bathed in an eternal night[14] with its own moon,[15] and Morpheus himself, the Primordial God of Dreams manifests as an alternate reality with its own time flow.[16] Them, we will get into more of the latter in later sections.
All of this is relevant as none of the Primordials were overtly stronger or weaker than another, hence the lack of hierarchy, which eventually led to war.[17] This confirms that all of them are comparable to each other and would thus scale to each other's feats.
Despite everything however, they would eventually be surpassed by their subsequent generations, as the blog will get into below;
Click to expand...

The rest of the primary source material doesn't support what we see in that single Ascensions clip.

We have nothing to back-up anybody being able to pimp slap actual stars of someone. Even in that clip, the death of whole Primordials just create mountains and seas. None of the corpses burst into solar systems.

We also never see anything in-game that can confirm the stars in the night sky are iRL stars. Normally the closest star is the sun, but the sun has its own origin in GoW. So...

The Mortal World​

This is the main universe in which the majority of the story of God of War takes place. It is a flat disk with an infinite sky and heavens above it.[28] It was created from Uranus' body as a result of being struck by Ceto. As such, the infinite heavens would no doubt refer to the cosmos sprung from the Primordial of the Skies and Heavens.

That infinite sky line is from a single book, and has no supporting evidence.

Its also probably hyperbolic. Poetic types describe the actual sky as infinite simply because humans can't see all of it at once.

The Underworld is also stated to be infinite in size repeatedly within the setting,[37][38][39] further being described as a a chasm of immeasurable magnitude.[40]

1. It very clearly just isn't infinite if you've played any of the games or looked at the official material.
2. Every example is clearly just flowery language. Hence why none of the examples use the word infinite. They use the terms boundless, unending, and limitless

It is disconnected from the Mortal Word by a dimensional barrier[35] and the Domain of Death inhabits the void between, with only souls flowing there naturally. One can only cross over if they possess the soul of a god and move through Hyperion Gates, which are magical portals, and even the Chain of Balance only connects to the Underworld via spatial tears[32].

Can't be that disconnected. Ikarus fell into it.

To further showcase this, It possesses an actual sky with stars and constellations within it[27]. The Artbook of God of War II also states that the Underworld is completely separate from the rest of the Greek cosmos.[36]

Literally not what the video shows. It's weird patterns on the underside of the Greek world. It's not a sky.

Nyx's World​

This is a mirror dimension to the Mortal World that's bathed in an eternal night[14] with its own moon[15]. It was created by Nyx and acts as her refuge when she is beaten back by Helios every night.

Another thing only supported by WoG.

One of the main developers, Matt Sophos, further clarifies the nature of the realms on his interview with Game Informer, where he repeats that all of the realms are separate dimensions existing within the same physical space[48] and further explains that if you went to Egypt or a country in Alfheim, and you crossed over a portal to another realm from that point, such as Niflheim, you’d be geographically on Niflheim’s version of Egypt.

This is actually one of they key examples I used to disqualify the game devs right to WoG.

This contradicts everything we see in game. And it clearly isn't really a statement of canon. The dude who answers the question just takes some comments made in-game and draws his own conclusion based on that. He's not sharing authorial intent.

When Kratos opens the Mystic Gateway leading directly into the Realm Between Realms, the narrator states that Yggdrasil’s branches stretch out infinitely.[61] So the Yggdrasil not only holds all Nine Realms, which are in themselves space-times, but it's also infinitely large relative to them

Matt Sophos further clarifies on the nature of this fall and the constellations seen during it (He also confirms these stars, constellations and galaxies, as well as the stars and galaxies in each of the skies of the 9 Realms, to be 100% real[62]), but it should be self-explanatory from the scans alone.

Yggdrasil isn't infinite.

You can literally walk across its trunk, and it has creatures dedicated to trimming its branches and roots.

Its branches may grow forever, but they aren't infinitely long.

Type 2 Abstracts on the Abstract Existence page is the most accurate, as well as Type 8 Immortality based on relying on the concepts they are reliant on.

He might be all of these things. None of this gibberish means anything here, so...

 

[JohnCenaNation]

tl;dr / The Point:

1) GoW is not universe level. At all.
2) GoWs WoG is tainted by a lack of standards and uninvested creators. It should have little to no weight on the verse going foward.


-----------Word of God Credibility-----------------------

God of War's lore has never been particularly coherent. This isn't shocking, the first game was not made with the intent of it becoming a series. The creators thought it would flop.

Over the years, as creators became more active on social media, VS nerds tried to remedy this by reaching out for clarification.

@BenTennyson did a massive info dump a few years back, just before GoW4 released. He, and a few other posters at the time, were sure that WoG had confirmed Kratos as universe level and lightspeed.

More recently, active debaters have been referencing tweets and Facebook posts about the nature of Yggdrasil, the Nine Realms, and the stars found in the Realm Between Realms [1][2]. Again asserting clear evidence of true cosmic-level godhood for Kratos and co.

The problem is that these inquiries into canon seem to be aimed at literally anybody who brought the dev team coffee. Most do tend to work in a department that at least makes sense for the question ie; "how big is x map?" being asked of an environment artist. But regardless of what your title should imply, individual artists do not dictate canon.

Beyond asking the right person, we also have to take into account the possibility that even those people aren't bothering to track the canon of the material on a level that is suitable to this hobby.

Recent comments by actual top creatives about the nature of the 9 Realms have been in direct contradiction to what we see in the games. And it is clear that their comments aren't genuine answers they had to give about the world they created. They were just interpreting the same information we have to work with.

The comment was along the lines of: "character X said , therefore I guess the answer to your question is _". This is literally the point of Death of the Author. Their opinion on what certain in-game comments mean for the lore has no more weight than ours.

It doesn't help that character's comment they cited -- a line from the 2018 game, is directly contradicted in Ragnarok.

---------------Power Level--------------------

As for the actual claims being supported by this dubious WoG, the one I take the most issues with is universe level Primordials and, by extension, universe level Kratos (and everyone else who matters). The sole piece of evidence for this is Ouranos getting celestial bodies punched off his face.

This punch was "confirmed" by "WoG" in Ben's info dump to be the creation of the Greek universe. A universe that somehow also ends a few hundred miles from Athens, when you reach Egypt. I guess this is one of those "only infinite in one or two dimensions" type of infinities, despite the Greek infinite cosmos being a sphere. :catmaybe

The key redflags are:
1. Without scaling, not even the God Tiers of the verse come anywhere near this power level. As such, everyone struggles against and falls to much lesser powers.
2. The creation of the universe, especially the stars, should include the sun. And we know Greece's sun to be smaller than the Greek landmass. This makes it untold orders of magnitude smaller than any real star. And removes any in-game credibility the other celestial bodies had.
3. None of the other Primordials, not even the one that punched Ouranos, generate these kinds of phenomena. When they take damage, or even fall dead, their bodies turn to mountains or oceans. None of them generate cosmic aftershocks.

The Yggdrasil claims are also just as dubious. The idea that any of its dimensions are infinite seems absurd to me when
A) creatures exist specifically to trim its roots
B) you can walk across the width of its trunk to go from Muspelheim to Niflheim.

I also don't see any reason to think you are hopping universes when you go between realms. It is specifically stated that the primordial realms existed in the infinite void before Odin slew Ymir and created the other 7 realms. Ymir's corpse did not end up in 7 different universes. It is in the same place as the two primordial realms, hence why they are all in the same tree.

The single piece of WoG I have seen cited for this is the one I mentioned earlier; creators quote Freya claiming that the realms all exist in the same space. Something that is directly contradicted by you being able stand in the space between the primordial realms.

Thoughts?

 

[Georredannea15]

It's been a long time since I have decided to do a debunk blog. After reading the God of War blog linked in God of War profile, there is a lot of problem with these.

Half true, at best.

They contain their own realities, but those realities are not universal in scope.

Be nice if you could be bothered to even skim the links given to you, when you clearly expect others to read entire thesis papers.

The core of the thread linked is explaining why GoW devs have disqualified themselves from having WoG privileges.

Traveling between pantheons is not hard. Normal humans can literally just get in a boat.

The rest of the primary source material doesn't support what we see in that single Ascensions clip.

We have nothing to back-up anybody being able to pimp slap actual stars of someone. Even in that clip, the death of whole Primordials just create mountains and seas. None of the corpses burst into solar systems.

We also never see anything in-game that can confirm the stars in the night sky are iRL stars. Normally the closest star is the sun, but the sun has its own origin in GoW. So...

That infinite sky line is from a single book, and has no supporting evidence.

Its also probably hyperbolic. Poetic types describe the actual sky as infinite simply because humans can't see all of it at once.

1. It very clearly just isn't infinite if you've played any of the games or looked at the official material.
2. Every example is clearly just flowery language. Hence why none of the examples use the word infinite. They use the terms boundless, unending, and limitless

Can't be that disconnected. Ikarus fell into it.

Literally not what the video shows. It's weird patterns on the underside of the Greek world. It's not a sky.

Another thing only supported by WoG.

This is actually one of they key examples I used to disqualify the game devs right to WoG.

This contradicts everything we see in game. And it clearly isn't really a statement of canon. The dude who answers the question just takes some comments made in-game and draws his own conclusion based on that. He's not sharing authorial intent.


Yggdrasil isn't infinite.

You can literally walk across its trunk, and it has creatures dedicated to trimming its branches and roots.

Its branches may grow forever, but they aren't infinitely long.

He might be all of these things. None of this gibberish means anything here, so...

Lmao... My brother is quoting the "famous GoW" debunks from 2 years ago here now.

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Oooo, KLOL isn't gonna be happy about this

 

[Eseseso]

It's been a long time since I have decided to do a debunk blog. After reading the God of War blog linked in God of War profile, there is a lot of problem with these.

Half true, at best.

They contain their own realities, but those realities are not universal in scope.

Be nice if you could be bothered to even skim the links given to you, when you clearly expect others to read entire thesis papers.

The core of the thread linked is explaining why GoW devs have disqualified themselves from having WoG privileges.

Traveling between pantheons is not hard. Normal humans can literally just get in a boat.

The rest of the primary source material doesn't support what we see in that single Ascensions clip.

We have nothing to back-up anybody being able to pimp slap actual stars of someone. Even in that clip, the death of whole Primordials just create mountains and seas. None of the corpses burst into solar systems.

We also never see anything in-game that can confirm the stars in the night sky are iRL stars. Normally the closest star is the sun, but the sun has its own origin in GoW. So...

That infinite sky line is from a single book, and has no supporting evidence.

Its also probably hyperbolic. Poetic types describe the actual sky as infinite simply because humans can't see all of it at once.

1. It very clearly just isn't infinite if you've played any of the games or looked at the official material.
2. Every example is clearly just flowery language. Hence why none of the examples use the word infinite. They use the terms boundless, unending, and limitless

Can't be that disconnected. Ikarus fell into it.

Literally not what the video shows. It's weird patterns on the underside of the Greek world. It's not a sky.

Another thing only supported by WoG.

This is actually one of they key examples I used to disqualify the game devs right to WoG.

This contradicts everything we see in game. And it clearly isn't really a statement of canon. The dude who answers the question just takes some comments made in-game and draws his own conclusion based on that. He's not sharing authorial intent.


Yggdrasil isn't infinite.

You can literally walk across its trunk, and it has creatures dedicated to trimming its branches and roots.

Its branches may grow forever, but they aren't infinitely long.

He might be all of these things. None of this gibberish means anything here, so...

Are you really doing this here?

KLOL's about to be like:

 

[Georredannea15]

KLOL isn't gonna like this

KLOL is probably tired of seeing these arguments over and over.

 

[Ped2018]

Lmaoooooo son what's this

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

KLOL is probably tired of seeing these arguments over and over.

We all are, to be honest

 

[Georredannea15]

Oooo, KLOL isn't gonna be happy about this

"

"Fanverse fiction wiki" It will be fun to watch.

 

[Georredannea15]

Are you really doing this here?

KLOL's about to be like:

All GoW supporters

 

[Gasper]

It's been a long time since I have decided to do a debunk blog. After reading the God of War blog linked in God of War profile, there is a lot of problem with these.

Half true, at best.

They contain their own realities, but those realities are not universal in scope.

Be nice if you could be bothered to even skim the links given to you, when you clearly expect others to read entire thesis papers.

The core of the thread linked is explaining why GoW devs have disqualified themselves from having WoG privileges.

Traveling between pantheons is not hard. Normal humans can literally just get in a boat.

The rest of the primary source material doesn't support what we see in that single Ascensions clip.

We have nothing to back-up anybody being able to pimp slap actual stars of someone. Even in that clip, the death of whole Primordials just create mountains and seas. None of the corpses burst into solar systems.

We also never see anything in-game that can confirm the stars in the night sky are iRL stars. Normally the closest star is the sun, but the sun has its own origin in GoW. So...

That infinite sky line is from a single book, and has no supporting evidence.

Its also probably hyperbolic. Poetic types describe the actual sky as infinite simply because humans can't see all of it at once.

1. It very clearly just isn't infinite if you've played any of the games or looked at the official material.
2. Every example is clearly just flowery language. Hence why none of the examples use the word infinite. They use the terms boundless, unending, and limitless

Can't be that disconnected. Ikarus fell into it.

Literally not what the video shows. It's weird patterns on the underside of the Greek world. It's not a sky.

Another thing only supported by WoG.

This is actually one of they key examples I used to disqualify the game devs right to WoG.

This contradicts everything we see in game. And it clearly isn't really a statement of canon. The dude who answers the question just takes some comments made in-game and draws his own conclusion based on that. He's not sharing authorial intent.


Yggdrasil isn't infinite.

You can literally walk across its trunk, and it has creatures dedicated to trimming its branches and roots.

Its branches may grow forever, but they aren't infinitely long.

He might be all of these things. None of this gibberish means anything here, so...

No mate, you didn't debunk shit.
You just embarrassed yourself and made yourself look stupid asf.

 

[Dienomite22]

tl;dr / The Point:

1) GoW is not universe level. At all.
2) GoWs WoG is tainted by a lack of standards and uninvested creators. It should have little to no weight on the verse going foward.


-----------Word of God Credibility-----------------------

God of War's lore has never been particularly coherent. This isn't shocking, the first game was not made with the intent of it becoming a series. The creators thought it would flop.

Over the years, as creators became more active on social media, VS nerds tried to remedy this by reaching out for clarification.

@BenTennyson did a massive info dump a few years back, just before GoW4 released. He, and a few other posters at the time, were sure that WoG had confirmed Kratos as universe level and lightspeed.

More recently, active debaters have been referencing tweets and Facebook posts about the nature of Yggdrasil, the Nine Realms, and the stars found in the Realm Between Realms [1][2]. Again asserting clear evidence of true cosmic-level godhood for Kratos and co.

The problem is that these inquiries into canon seem to be aimed at literally anybody who brought the dev team coffee. Most do tend to work in a department that at least makes sense for the question ie; "how big is x map?" being asked of an environment artist. But regardless of what your title should imply, individual artists do not dictate canon.

Beyond asking the right person, we also have to take into account the possibility that even those people aren't bothering to track the canon of the material on a level that is suitable to this hobby.

Recent comments by actual top creatives about the nature of the 9 Realms have been in direct contradiction to what we see in the games. And it is clear that their comments aren't genuine answers they had to give about the world they created. They were just interpreting the same information we have to work with.

The comment was along the lines of: "character X said , therefore I guess the answer to your question is _". This is literally the point of Death of the Author. Their opinion on what certain in-game comments mean for the lore has no more weight than ours.

It doesn't help that character's comment they cited -- a line from the 2018 game, is directly contradicted in Ragnarok.

---------------Power Level--------------------

As for the actual claims being supported by this dubious WoG, the one I take the most issues with is universe level Primordials and, by extension, universe level Kratos (and everyone else who matters). The sole piece of evidence for this is Ouranos getting celestial bodies punched off his face.

This punch was "confirmed" by "WoG" in Ben's info dump to be the creation of the Greek universe. A universe that somehow also ends a few hundred miles from Athens, when you reach Egypt. I guess this is one of those "only infinite in one or two dimensions" type of infinities, despite the Greek infinite cosmos being a sphere. :catmaybe

The key redflags are:
1. Without scaling, not even the God Tiers of the verse come anywhere near this power level. As such, everyone struggles against and falls to much lesser powers.
2. The creation of the universe, especially the stars, should include the sun. And we know Greece's sun to be smaller than the Greek landmass. This makes it untold orders of magnitude smaller than any real star. And removes any in-game credibility the other celestial bodies had.
3. None of the other Primordials, not even the one that punched Ouranos, generate these kinds of phenomena. When they take damage, or even fall dead, their bodies turn to mountains or oceans. None of them generate cosmic aftershocks.

The Yggdrasil claims are also just as dubious. The idea that any of its dimensions are infinite seems absurd to me when
A) creatures exist specifically to trim its roots
B) you can walk across the width of its trunk to go from Muspelheim to Niflheim.

I also don't see any reason to think you are hopping universes when you go between realms. It is specifically stated that the primordial realms existed in the infinite void before Odin slew Ymir and created the other 7 realms. Ymir's corpse did not end up in 7 different universes. It is in the same place as the two primordial realms, hence why they are all in the same tree.

The single piece of WoG I have seen cited for this is the one I mentioned earlier; creators quote Freya claiming that the realms all exist in the same space. Something that is directly contradicted by you being able stand in the space between the primordial realms.

Thoughts?

bruh

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Uh oh lol

 

[AnimesFreak2]

Man really using like what? 5 year old "debunks"

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Man really using like what? 5 year old "debunks"

What's a Comic Vine user doing here in this website?

 

[AnimesFreak2]

What's a Comic Vine user doing here in this website?

If that's your only rebuttal that is sad

Bro acting like I am the only CV user who comes here

 

[Gasper]

What's a Comic Vine user doing here in this website?

Ma man, you are the one acting like you just come from ComicVine

 

[JohnCenaNation]

If that's your only rebuttal that is sad

Bro acting like I am the only CV user who comes here

How are you still allowed in Comic Vine, but I keep on getting kicked out of Comic Vine?

 

[AnimesFreak2]

How are you still allowed in Comic Vine, but I keep on getting kicked out of Comic Vine?

Bruh what? What are you talking about?

Are you harassing people or something? That would be a reason why. Are you insulting people?


I just post on there or have minor discussions hence I am not breaking any rules so Idk what you are on about

 

[JohnCenaNation]

Ma man, you are the one acting like you just come from ComicVine

Not anymore, the Comic Vine moderators now wants me dead after my latest post that I did in Comic Vine.

 

[Gasper]

Not anymore, the Comic Vine moderators now wants me dead after my latest post that I did in Comic Vine.

What happened

 

[JohnCenaNation]

What happened

My Problem With Comic Vine
This is what happened.

 

[ByAsura]

"And we know Greece's sun to be smaller than the Greek landmass."

Citation?

 

[AnimesFreak2]

"And we know Greece's sun to be smaller than the Greek landmass."

Citation?

"I MADE IT THE **** UP!"

 

[ByAsura]

Literally every claim is unsourced, so, while I don't agree or disagree, I also can't possibly care or make a worthwhile response. It's a whole bunch of nothing.

 

[Lilixa]

so RBR is 5D, right ? then PoH kratos should have 6D

 

[BEASTHEART8800]

Likely

 

[chosen]

so RBR is 5D, right ? then PoH kratos should have 6D

Pretty he would become 6d yeah if 5d for norse tiers gets accepted

 

[Lilixa]

you know what ? yggdrasil can still have 2-A feat due to inifnite size thing. There isn't any proof yggrasil does not have hypervolume, so if you chop every pieces of yggdrassil which result of infinite number of low 2-C (with hypervolume of course)