God of War: Possible Low 1-C Upgrade (STAFF ONLY)

[Tanin_iver]

Some new data has been found since the inception of this thread. Thank the almighty Cookbook of Wank of GoW Ragnarok for making it happen.

No, thank you for spoiling that. I was actually planning to use it for an Ace Attorney style comeback if DT responded again.

I think it is fine for him to post.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Only a few questions remain unanswered.

1. Would the RBR (Specifically the Void occupied by Yggdrasil) be a 5D realm then based on the findings we got in Page 1?

Hasn't your question already been answered tho?

I believe last time I said something along the lines of it being a construct of 4D volume (several spaces + time) spread throughout a 5D space, which is basically what a multiverse is like and hence Tier 2.

DT already said the RBR, which is the space across which the realms are spatio-temporally separated and displaced will be 5D.

It would be 5D. Whether it would be 5D in a Tiering System applicable (i.e. Low 1-C) way would be another point of debate. Is it important to some character if it is? (Asking because I'm lazy when it comes to debating tiers of things that don't matter)

He even reiterates it again.


Moreover multiple other staff have agreed to 5D RBR:

I'm not sure if Standards have changed, but originally universal space-times are considered 4D constructs, they are parallel to each other so they are embedded in 5D space across a 5th axis.

The space separating the tree from other areas can be 5-D, but the Tree itself is 2-A. More or less anyways.

Looking through this thread, I think I'm against Low 1-C. 5-D RBR makes sense to me as well.

2-A is destroying an infinite number of 4-D sized universes and the spatial dimension that separates 2 or more universes has technically called the 5th dimension. Yes, temporal dimensions are qualitively superior by nature so an extra temporal dimension is considered Low 1-C, but simply having an X-D axis does not warrant any tiers without more detailed context.

In essence everyone is meaning to say the same thing, that is, the RBR is essentially a higher-dimensional space in which the realms which are 4D space-times are embedded, and because of this the RBR has to posses an extra spatial axis with non-zero volume to be capable of embedding these realms. Hence, 5D RBR is pretty much unanimously agreed upon I'd say.


Anyways, now let's move on to the new stuff that has been discovered, which is, surprise surprise RBR is also a mere creation of Yggdrasil.
To elaborate what has been said, the Yggdrasil creates this ethereal space like a connective network with pathways that connect the various realms creating what in essence is a Realm Between Realms.
Heck, the branches of Yggdrasil are even implied to encompass the RBR.
So in short, even the 5D RBR is just a part of Yggdrasil.

To conclude, with the new findings along with all the prior arguments I made, 5D Yggdrasil should be even more straight forward now because of creating and encompassing the RBR which was accepted to be the 5D higher-dimensional space embedding the realms.


With that I would like to take my leave.

 

[KLOL506]

Hasn't your question already been answered tho?


DT already said the RBR, which is the space across which the realms are spatio-temporally separated and displaced will be 5D.

He even reiterates it again.

Hmmmmmm, didn't know.

In essence everyone is meaning to say the same thing, that is, the RBR is essentially a higher-dimensional space in which the realms which are 4D space-times are embedded, and because of this the RBR has to posses an extra spatial axis with non-zero volume to be capable of embedding these realms. Hence, 5D RBR is pretty much unanimously agreed upon I'd say.


Anyways, now let's move on to the new stuff that has been discovered, which is, surprise surprise RBR is also a mere creation of Yggdrasil.
To elaborate what has been said, the Yggdrasil creates this ethereal space like a connective network with pathways that connect the various realms creating what in essence is a Realm Between Realms.
Heck, the branches of Yggdrasil are even implied to encompass the RBR.
So in short, even the 5D RBR is just a part of Yggdrasil.

To conclude, with the new findings along with all the prior arguments I made, 5D Yggdrasil should be even more straight forward now because of creating and encompassing the RBR which was accepted to be the 5D higher-dimensional space embedding the realms.


With that I would like to take my leave.

@DontTalkDT @Ultima_Reality @Qawsedf234 @Executor_N0 @Theglassman12 @DarkGrath @Elizhaa Thoughts?

 

[Planck69]

I'm honestly alright with applying the single accepted change (Low 1-C Realm Between Realms) and closing this thread and settling Tanin's post and proposal as its own thread if there's still too little engagement here.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Thoughts?

None of the scans indicate that the RBR imbeds anything. It's just a sideways plane that intersects all the other branches used for travel. Which isn't a Low 1-C justification.

 

[Tanin_iver]

None of the scans indicate that the RBR imbeds anything. It's just a sideways plane that intersects all the other branches used for travel.

Verse mechanics and lore would disagree about RBR being a sideways plane or a plane perpendicular to the branches.
But its alright, we aren't really trying to tier the RBR, but Yggdrasil instead.
Considering your current position, I think its easy to accept that the branches of Yggdrasil in which the realms are situated and the RBR which is also created by Yggdrasil will spread out in two distinct, perpendicular planes.
Then will it not make Yggdrasil 5D for being able to create 4D structures in two different perpendicular planes?

 

[Qawsedf234]

Verse mechanics and lore would disagree about RBR being a sideways plane or a plane perpendicular to the branches.

I'm not seeing where it would. It touching everything can be accomplished by just being an intersecting 4D space.

Then will it not make Yggdrasil 5D for being able to create 4D structures in two different perpendicular planes?

No, it would just be like the D&D version of Yggdrasil. Which is a giant tree containing with branches being different universes all of which are bisected by the shadow plane.

 

[Planck69]

None of the scans indicate that the RBR imbeds anything. It's just a sideways plane that intersects all the other branches used for travel. Which isn't a Low 1-C justification.

....What do you mean "sideways plane"? It encompasses the entirety of the Yggdrasil and the Nine Realms within it and extends out as far as the branches do at least, which are infinitely long.

The Low 1-C justification is that because 4-dimensional realms can be parallel within it, it'd need to be a higher-dimensional space for that to happen.

Also, speaking generally, it's funny how the one aspect agreed upon becomes an issue the moment it becomes relevant to tiering.

 

[Planck69]

Anyway, I feel that it'd be better to settle the RBR stuff here and deal with the consequence of that and Tanin's post on its own thread. Since everything else seems to be avoided like the plague.

 

[Qawsedf234]

....What do you mean "sideways plane"? It encompasses the entirety of the Yggdrasil and the Nine Realms within it and extends out as far as the branches do at least, which are infinitely long.

Like this

Also, speaking generally, it's funny how the one aspect agreed upon becomes an issue the moment it becomes relevant to tiering.

If its a void where things sit in, sure its likely 5D or at least can be argued as a canvas that 4D things sit in, but if its just a bunch of alternate branches or tunnels (which is what this scan is saying) then its just intersecting space.

 

[Planck69]

Like this

Oh, it's definitely not that.

If its a void where things sit in, sure its likely 5D or at least can be argued as a canvas that 4D things sit in, but if its just a bunch of alternate branches or tunnels (which is what this scan is saying) then its just intersecting space.

Wait, that's where the confusion came from? It's quite clearly a void (well, "ethereal space" as it's called in that scan). Tyr's just referring to how it's the main network of travel in the sense of it being used by himself and others like the Dwarves to get from one realm to another.

Like, that can be seen in any cutscene with the Realm Between Realms.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Wait, that's where the confusion came from?

That's what was linked to me, yes.

 

[Planck69]

That's what was linked to me, yes.

Oh, then yeah. It's a wording issue moreso than anything. One doesn't even need that scan to see the nature of the Realm Between Realms.

 

[Tanin_iver]

None of the scans indicate that the RBR imbeds anything. It's just a sideways plane that intersects all the other branches used for travel. Which isn't a Low 1-C justification.

The Blue background is the RBR, the realms are situated within it, and the whole of RBR is encompassed by the branches of Yggdrasil.

I'm not seeing where it would. It touching everything can be accomplished by just being an intersecting 4D space.

This part that I am quoting below:

But if we apply the same principle here, what you are essentially proposing is that the branches will intersect through each of the 9 spacetimes, which isn't the case at all according to the lore.

Moreover, while using Realm travel according to your proposal, Kratos will have to travel through each realm sequentially on a FCFS basis and on top of that always reach the exact same spatio-temporal instance for each realm whenever he uses realm travel.
Neither of this is true or even consistent with the lore and verse mechanics, as you can freely travel to any of the unlocked realms without ever having to step across any of the other realms and also never be in the exact same spatio-temporal instance when using different types of realm travel. Moreover, Kratos can literally jump across the branches through the RBR using the Unity Stone.

TL;DR: If you have to use geometry, use something that is lore friendly and logically consistent with the verse, and not just any assumption regardless of its consistency.

Also, using Occam's razor, it's much more appropriate to simply assume Yggdrasil is a tree that encompasses the realms in its branches which is what is blatantly stated by the lore instead of baseless assumptions like the branches intersecting the realms like lines perpendicular to the space-times which obviously contradicts it.

Although, I would be extremely grateful if u could look through all the arguments in my previous post instead of sticking to dismissing just one of the arguments.

No, it would just be like the D&D version of Yggdrasil. Which is a giant tree containing with branches being different universes all of which are bisected by the shadow plane.

My apologies, but I am not acquainted with D&D cosmology. It would be better if u could elaborate on that.

But even still I am not sure about one thing tho.

How is this even geometrically possible? Do correct me if I have misunderstood your stance.

EDIT: Saw the D&D cosmology image just after posting the answer. Also, did not see that Planck already cleared about the misconception of it being a void encompassing the realms.

 

[Georredannea15]

Like this

First of all, I don't know if you suspect RBR or Yggdrasil is 5-D, but if I talk about RBR, they are very different with the shadow plane here.

First, to give a simple example, the shadow plane looks like multiple 1-dimensional lines lined up with gaps in between, side by side in an infinite 1-dimensional line. In other words, cosmologies progress only on a single axis and do not need an extra axis for this, or do not provide a different axis because they extend on a single linear axis.

That's why they still remain on the same axis.

But if we come to the case of RBR, in RBR, universes existing in parallel on the same plane can move freely in all directions without intersecting each other on any angular axis, and can exist on the same plane.

For this, RBR has to be an extra vertical axis where the 4-dimensional universes will remain at 0 volume and will not intersect each other on any angular axis since they have 0 volume.

Because the reason why the universes intersect each other on no axis is that they are buried on an extra vertical axis where they remain as 0 volume in this space. If RBR didn't have this, the realms would necessarily intersect on an angular axis every time they move.

Note: The reason RBR is 5-dimensional is the realms, not Yggdrasil.

If its a void where things sit in, sure its likely 5D or at least can be argued as a canvas that 4D things sit in, but if its just a bunch of alternate branches or tunnels (which is what this scan is saying) then its just intersecting space.

As I said before, the RBR being 5-D has nothing to do with Yggdrasil. As I explained above, the reason why it is 5-D is its relationship with the realms.

However, when it comes to the relationship between RBR and Yggdrasil;

In order for Yggdrasil's branches to hold the realms, the branches must reach in this plane with an extra vertical axis where the realms can move freely and do not intersect at any angular axis.

And a 4-dimensional structure can never reach this extra vertical axis where 4-dimensional universes have 0 volume. For this to happen, the structure must have an extension that can reach this extra vertical axis, the 5th axis. Only in this way can it reach the 5th vertical axis, otherwise a structure with only 4 axes (i.e. a 4-dimensional structure) cannot reach this extra vertical axis, i.e. the 5th axis.

The fact that Yggdrasil can reach this 5th vertical axis and hold the realms means that it has a 5th axis(5 dimensional).

Note : Thanks to Planck for giving me this one-time permission.

 

[Qawsedf234]

First, to give a simple example, the shadow plane looks like multiple 1-dimensional lines lined up with gaps in between, side by side in an infinite 1-dimensional line

The Shadow Plane is an infinite 4th Dimensional space that bisects an infinite amount of other 4th Dimensional spaces, which is why I brought it up. The shadow plane and the standard D&D multiverses are not 1-dimensional.

For this, RBR has to be an extra vertical axis where the 4-dimensional universes will remain at 0 volume and will not intersect each other on any angular axis since they have 0 volume.

If the float in a empty void then yes, the RBR would need an extra axis to contain them all.

In order for Yggdrasil's branches to hold the realms, the branches must reach in this plane with an extra vertical axis where the realms can move freely and do not intersect at any angular axis.

The branches can be split off from an original 4th Dimensional plane while being separate. It's why a multiverse that splits based on possibility will still only be 2A without more to it.

 

[Georredannea15]

The Shadow Plane is an infinite 4th Dimensional space that bisects an infinite amount of other 4th Dimensional spaces, which is why I brought it up. The shadow plane and the standard D&D multiverses are not 1-dimensional.

1 dimensional line was just a modeling example.

Think of what I said for the shadow plane in "4 dimensions" and model it that way because they both have the same logic and context.

The branches can be split off from an original 4th Dimensional plane while being separate. It's why a multiverse that splits based on possibility will still only be 2A without more to it.

This is actually not possible because Yggdrasil must have the 5th axis in order to reach the universes embedded in the 5th axis and that plane of existence. A 4-dimensional being, that is, a being have only the 4th axis, can never do this because there is no axis of movement in the 5th axis and it is only have 0 volume in this 5th axis.

In short, in order to reach here and hold them, it must have the 5th axis and not have 0 volume there. And the situation here is not that the branches are separated, the case here that branches and Yggdrasil have extensions that can reach the 5th axis


I cannot comment further, I have already used my right to comment.

 

[Qawsedf234]

I cannot comment further, I have already used my right to comment.

Alright

 

[Planck69]

If the float in a empty void then yes, the RBR would need an extra axis to contain them all.

Well then, that's settled. The Yggdrasil and the Nine Realms atop its branches all are suspended in the Realm Between Realms.

 

[KLOL506]

Bump

So that I can watch this piece-of-shit thread die once and for all.

 

[Elizhaa]

Realm Between Realms being Low 1-C seems alright.

 

[Fixxed]

This shit never going to end if and only if DT dont want to comment anymore

 

[Georredannea15]

Realm Between Realms being Low 1-C seems alright.

What do you think about the 3 comments here, here and here and the relationship between RBR and Yggdrasil?

Tanin's extensive new additions and arguments are also available here.

 

[Eseseso]

What do you think about the 3 comments here, here and here and the relationship between RBR and Yggdrasil?

Tanin's extensive new additions and arguments are also available here.

IIRC KLOL said that would likely be for another thread and that right now he just wants to settle the matter of 5-D RBR

 

[Planck69]

I updated the votes with my and Elizhaa's choice.

 

[KLOL506]

IIRC KLOL said that would likely be for another thread and that right now he just wants to settle the matter of 5-D RBR

Planck said that actually, not me.

 

[Planck69]

Bump

 

[Planck69]

So, can we just move on? At this point, DT isn't likely to come back here and we've agreed with the Realm Between Realms if nothing else.

 

[Eseseso]

So, can we just move on? At this point, DT isn't likely to come back here and we've agreed with the Realm Between Realms if nothing else.

Yeah, let's just save the Yggdrasil stuff for the next discussion, per your suggestion.

 

[KLOL506]

Sure.

@Planck69 If you can write up a draft for RBR being a 5D Low 1-C realm with the relevant scans from the games and the cookbook, we can be on our merry way to the next revisions.

We'll tackle Yggdrasil some other time in the future. As that would have major consequences for the entire verse at hand which would not stop at just the Norse Pantheon.

 

[Eseseso]

We'll tackle Yggdrasil some other time in the future. As that would have major consequences for the entire verse at hand which would not stop at just the Norse Pantheon.

No stopping, full speed ahead!

 

[Planck69]

Sure.

@Planck69 If you can write up a draft for RBR being a 5D Low 1-C realm with the relevant scans from the games and the cookbook, we can be on our merry way to the next revisions.

It's really only the games, novel plus some basic geometry.

The cookbook doesn't actually say anything aside from the fact that the Yggdrasil made it.

We'll tackle Yggdrasil some other time in the future. As that would have major consequences for the entire verse at hand which would not stop at just the Norse Pantheon.

Alright. I'll see if I can make time.

 

[Planck69]

I made a section on my blog of the explanation page about the Realm Between Realms. It was shorter than expected since all the scans and reasoning is already on other parts of the blog.

@KLOL506 @Elizhaa Should this be good to apply?

 

[KLOL506]

Did you add the cookbook scan?

 

[Marvel_Champion_07]

Here it is to save you some time.

Link doesn't work for me

 

[Gasper]

Link doesn't work for me

 

[Planck69]

Did you add the cookbook scan?

That would mean applying the Low 1-C rating outright. I thought that specific thing would be tackled on its own thread first?

 

[KLOL506]

That would mean applying the Low 1-C rating outright. I thought that specific thing would be tackled on its own thread first?

Oh. I see. Alright then.

 

[Planck69]

@Antvasima I'm applying the only notably accepted option (the Low 1-C RBR to the cosmology page) and will close the thread. Is that alright?

 

[Tanin_iver]

I am just disappointed with how this thread turned out with so little engagement.

 

[Planck69]

Same.

I just know if it were a downgrade, we'd be at page 6 rn