Hellbeast
He/Him- 5,067
- 4,525
Introduction:
How it do fellow gamers? Now I’ve been playing through the newest God of War and so between that, Mythymoo’s playthroughs of the entire main saga of games and God of War: Fallen God’s release (Damn I hate the filler) I’ve been on a bit of a kick for our boi Kratos.Unfortunately this kick involves downgrades so that’s rough
Proposed Downgrades:
Despite myself having expressed disbelief with the current GOW ratings, I just want to establish this will have nothing to do with that, these downgrades are simply pinpointed to the issues I believe exist within the scaling as it pertains to a Demigod Kratos.
This would mean the Kratos that we see before he ascends to truly Godlike levels of power by killing Ares and is more focused on the stuff from Ascension to God of War 1’s main campaign. This is only the first part of a small series of revisions that are going to be for the GOW Universe; the second part of which will touch the scaling and abilities for the top tier Gods of the verse (no major downgrades). With that out of the way we can begin.
This would mean the Kratos that we see before he ascends to truly Godlike levels of power by killing Ares and is more focused on the stuff from Ascension to God of War 1’s main campaign. This is only the first part of a small series of revisions that are going to be for the GOW Universe; the second part of which will touch the scaling and abilities for the top tier Gods of the verse (no major downgrades). With that out of the way we can begin.
So God of War: Ascension. Some loved it, some hated it and some just forgot it ever came out at all. Despite what you might think about this game it definitely is the source for the best feats Kratos has as just a regular demigod so let’s start by going through that.
Part of the reasoning for Kratos’ current placement in Tier 7 is his scaling to another fallen mortal, chosen and uplifted by the Olympian Gods as their Champion - The Redeemed Warrior.
For those who don’t know, this is big because the Warrior can gain several weapons through the GOW multiplayer, including the Spear of Poseidon - a weapon infused with the power of a Mediterannean Tempest, which Keplekely calculated as being about 30 Megatons of TNT
The reasoning for the scaling is as follows
For those who don’t know, this is big because the Warrior can gain several weapons through the GOW multiplayer, including the Spear of Poseidon - a weapon infused with the power of a Mediterannean Tempest, which Keplekely calculated as being about 30 Megatons of TNT
The reasoning for the scaling is as follows
- The Warrior was also chosen by the Gods as a Champion
- The Warrior was able to battle Demigods such as Achilles
- The Warrior can fight in several trials including against the giant Polyphemus, the prophet Castor and even the Demigod Hercules (the latter of which are characters Kratos battles)
The main relevance of the spear is that it possesses the power of a tempest within it and people tank that.
Yeah firstly there’s no reason to assume that because it has the power of a tempest within it that it’s seriously outputting city destroying blasts with every attack. Sure it’s got that empowering the spear but power source =|= output. We’ve regularly seen characters get rejected from scaling to their power sources (such as the 2016 Cyberdemon) and it's likely The same here.
The current scaling would also imply the Warriors hit you with the full power of their spears with each individual strike and that barely makes sense at all. Even ignoring that, we’re scaling their physicals purely based off one of their weapons even though that has issues.
We see them regularly tear through each other in the multiplayer stuff, slice through monsters like butter and even slay the Titanic Polyphemus but there’s no Tier 7 feats outside of this. We do see a “Trial of the Gods” segment where we battle Hercules but this feels questionable considering he’s exactly the same design as in 3 (despite this being some 20 years before GOWIII), is in the Forum from that game and also is basically just a reskinned version of his boss fight from that game (and he breaks the Cestus which canonically is busted since he has them decades later).
We also know they have to be weaker than Kratos since the GOW1 Novelisation has Athena claim Ares’ blessing granted Kratos “near Olympian strength and toughness” (and there’s the very point of Kratos being bred to be a perfect weapon against Olympus) so between that and him so easily besting Pollux and Castor, who can kill the Warriors easily. All of the evidence would imply he’s far greater then what is, essentially a run of the mill Champion for Olympus, so the lack of reliable Tier 7 stuff for Kratos bodes poorly for the Warriors.
We see a similar statement for the Ice of Poseidon “containing the might of a Typhoon” and this has the same issue but doesn’t seem as bad. We see Kratos create massive ice crystals with his ultimate attack for this which could imply he’s higher with Ice Manipulation (I say higher because there’s no real evidence of a universal power system) and this could apply to the Warriors since some of their attacks involve this ice.
Yeah firstly there’s no reason to assume that because it has the power of a tempest within it that it’s seriously outputting city destroying blasts with every attack. Sure it’s got that empowering the spear but power source =|= output. We’ve regularly seen characters get rejected from scaling to their power sources (such as the 2016 Cyberdemon) and it's likely The same here.
The current scaling would also imply the Warriors hit you with the full power of their spears with each individual strike and that barely makes sense at all. Even ignoring that, we’re scaling their physicals purely based off one of their weapons even though that has issues.
We see them regularly tear through each other in the multiplayer stuff, slice through monsters like butter and even slay the Titanic Polyphemus but there’s no Tier 7 feats outside of this. We do see a “Trial of the Gods” segment where we battle Hercules but this feels questionable considering he’s exactly the same design as in 3 (despite this being some 20 years before GOWIII), is in the Forum from that game and also is basically just a reskinned version of his boss fight from that game (and he breaks the Cestus which canonically is busted since he has them decades later).
We also know they have to be weaker than Kratos since the GOW1 Novelisation has Athena claim Ares’ blessing granted Kratos “near Olympian strength and toughness” (and there’s the very point of Kratos being bred to be a perfect weapon against Olympus) so between that and him so easily besting Pollux and Castor, who can kill the Warriors easily. All of the evidence would imply he’s far greater then what is, essentially a run of the mill Champion for Olympus, so the lack of reliable Tier 7 stuff for Kratos bodes poorly for the Warriors.
We see a similar statement for the Ice of Poseidon “containing the might of a Typhoon” and this has the same issue but doesn’t seem as bad. We see Kratos create massive ice crystals with his ultimate attack for this which could imply he’s higher with Ice Manipulation (I say higher because there’s no real evidence of a universal power system) and this could apply to the Warriors since some of their attacks involve this ice.
As for the Demigod section I have to ask, where does the Warrior fighting Orion, Achilles and Odysseus come from? While you can acquire armors linked to them in game there's no reference I can recall of actually fighting or killing them at any point. Not in the Trial of the Gods, not in the item descriptions, nothing
You literally just unlock them or preorder them. The Warrior getting them also doesn’t mean that he has canonically killed or met them because, while the multiplayer is officially considered canonical, we see the Warrior get items through unlocks that don’t make much sense (gaining the Nemean Cestus for instance). Even outside of that one armour, that of Perseus, is able to be acquired in the multiplayer and we know Perseus dies in GOWII at the hands of an angry (and potentially confused by monologues) Kratos.
This also ignores the idea that, to my knowledge, these demigods have absolutely no feats of any kind (outside of Perseus) and in fact I’m unsure if they’re mentioned anywhere else in lore (feel free to correct me tho
You literally just unlock them or preorder them. The Warrior getting them also doesn’t mean that he has canonically killed or met them because, while the multiplayer is officially considered canonical, we see the Warrior get items through unlocks that don’t make much sense (gaining the Nemean Cestus for instance). Even outside of that one armour, that of Perseus, is able to be acquired in the multiplayer and we know Perseus dies in GOWII at the hands of an angry (and potentially confused by monologues) Kratos.
This also ignores the idea that, to my knowledge, these demigods have absolutely no feats of any kind (outside of Perseus) and in fact I’m unsure if they’re mentioned anywhere else in lore (feel free to correct me tho
Ok so there’s no way to say this nicely so I’ll just say it this way, the profile page for the Furies (The main antagonists of Ascension) really sucks.
Not even touching it’s scaling contents, the page for some reason, is for the three Furies collectively and seems to composite their capabilities (despite their very obviously different characteristics and abilities) which is just erroneous.
The Furies are no less prominent in their game’s narrative then the likes of the Sisters of Fate or the Gods of Olympus and yet the latter have individual pages for each member of their respective factions.
The page should be deleted and new pages for the individual Furies (Alecto, Megaera and Tisiphone) should be devised to replace it.
Moving into the powerscaling side of things, the profile places the Furies at city level for three reasons.
Not even touching it’s scaling contents, the page for some reason, is for the three Furies collectively and seems to composite their capabilities (despite their very obviously different characteristics and abilities) which is just erroneous.
The Furies are no less prominent in their game’s narrative then the likes of the Sisters of Fate or the Gods of Olympus and yet the latter have individual pages for each member of their respective factions.
The page should be deleted and new pages for the individual Furies (Alecto, Megaera and Tisiphone) should be devised to replace it.
Moving into the powerscaling side of things, the profile places the Furies at city level for three reasons.
- Tisiphone’s Illusions and Reality Warping feats (Such as the City of Sparta)
- Alecto’s death shattering her palace
- Alecto’s monster form shaking a chain of islands
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/God_of_War_Ascension:_Busload_of_Furies
So, Tisiphone is something huh? Biggest cutie among the Furies, has a cool Pokemon/Stand and can reality warp like her name was Franklin Richards. The main feat she has is recreating Sparta to taunt Kratos and creating the final battle arena for Kratos and Alecto.
Let’s take these one by one, shall we? Firstly we’re just arbitrarily saying she recreated all of Sparta when we just see a few houses and streets, for all we know that’s the extent of her illusion here but since I’m not low balling I’d note we can see a moon in the background so this feat has the capacity to be higher or lower than what we say it is. The second feat is more interesting since the location she conjures seems to be a representation of the Furies’ birthplace, complete with swirling whirlpools and storms. This is mostly fine so nothing to say here imo (this could just be BFR to that location but I don’t have any evidence for that).
The issue here is I don’t know why we assume this scales to her physicals, she doesn’t perform any Tier 7 feat and she’s shown as being easily overpowered by Kratos (to the point he crushes her neck in his grip). This also fits with how she never confronts Kratos directly, always hiding behind illusions and using her Daimon to go damage, making her seem more like a support fighter to her sisters (which is mostly the role she takes in boss fights).
Adding to this is the fact that her title is the “Fury of the Mind”, implying that’s a specific capability of hers and we see all of the illusions made by Furies have the same effect as hers, further implying it’s mostly here doing this. The reasoning here is more sound than The others but the main takeaway is
So, Tisiphone is something huh? Biggest cutie among the Furies, has a cool Pokemon/Stand and can reality warp like her name was Franklin Richards. The main feat she has is recreating Sparta to taunt Kratos and creating the final battle arena for Kratos and Alecto.
Let’s take these one by one, shall we? Firstly we’re just arbitrarily saying she recreated all of Sparta when we just see a few houses and streets, for all we know that’s the extent of her illusion here but since I’m not low balling I’d note we can see a moon in the background so this feat has the capacity to be higher or lower than what we say it is. The second feat is more interesting since the location she conjures seems to be a representation of the Furies’ birthplace, complete with swirling whirlpools and storms. This is mostly fine so nothing to say here imo (this could just be BFR to that location but I don’t have any evidence for that).
The issue here is I don’t know why we assume this scales to her physicals, she doesn’t perform any Tier 7 feat and she’s shown as being easily overpowered by Kratos (to the point he crushes her neck in his grip). This also fits with how she never confronts Kratos directly, always hiding behind illusions and using her Daimon to go damage, making her seem more like a support fighter to her sisters (which is mostly the role she takes in boss fights).
Adding to this is the fact that her title is the “Fury of the Mind”, implying that’s a specific capability of hers and we see all of the illusions made by Furies have the same effect as hers, further implying it’s mostly here doing this. The reasoning here is more sound than The others but the main takeaway is
- We shouldn’t scale her powers to her physicals
- We shouldn’t assume the other Furies can do what she does
https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kepekley23/God_of_War_Ascension:_The_Temple_of_the_Furies's_destruction
The biggest feat that the Fury Queen, Alecto possesses is her destroying her entire palace with her death. This has been calculated as being solidly into 7-B by Kep and it at first glance does work fine as a feat since the calc seems solid.
So why am I bringing it up in a downgrade thread? The problem is we got new rules for how to treat stabilization feats. This, obviously, means we need to re-evaluate the feat under our new guidelines and see if it works.
Speaking of let’s begin
The biggest feat that the Fury Queen, Alecto possesses is her destroying her entire palace with her death. This has been calculated as being solidly into 7-B by Kep and it at first glance does work fine as a feat since the calc seems solid.
So why am I bringing it up in a downgrade thread? The problem is we got new rules for how to treat stabilization feats. This, obviously, means we need to re-evaluate the feat under our new guidelines and see if it works.
Speaking of let’s begin
- Requirement 1: Specify what exactly is being stabilized so that it is made clear what the character's sustainability is doing precisely.
- Answer: It’s fairly clear that the temple of Furies is being destroyed here so this passes
- Requirement 2: Prove that the stabilized structure is being directly sustained by the power of the character and not from the character's abilities, life force, existence, magical properties or any unknown connection that is independent of their statistics.
- Answer: And here the issue is; there’s no evidence to prove this is in proportion with any of Alecto’s other feats. There’s one near this bit that has issues too (see below)
- Requirement 3: Prove that the character's stabilization is comparable to the scale of the structure they are stabilizing. Preferably, it should be proven that the character's sustainability is comparable to the destruction of the structure to best show that their power rivals the destructive output of what would destroy the structure in the first place. Please keep in mind that this may vary depending on how the structure's destruction would occur. For example, if a character sustains the existence of a universe that would not be instantly or immediately destroyed when no longer supported, the power of their sustainability would not be comparable to destructive output that completely and immediately destroys a universe, and would not be sufficient enough to be given a 3-A or Low 2-C rating. However, their sustainability could be given either rating if the universe they sustain would be completely destroyed instantly or immediately without support.
- Answer: Looking at the video it seems like multiple explosions all occur at a quick rate, collapsing the Temple in a devastating chain reaction which likely means this isn’t something it does in one go
- Requirement 4: Prove that the power of the character's stabilization consistently scales to their regular statistics, similar to our standards for creation feats.
- Answer: None really, outside of Tisiphone’s reality warping the Furies don’t have any concrete Tier 7 feats and there’s no real elaboration of how this happens other then “Fury Dead = big boom”
So Alecto can just straight up transform into a Kaiju I guess. At one point this Levithan form was able to pull down the Lantern of Delos, causing the camera to visibly shudder and shake. Now this would seem to be her shaking the island (a feat that regularly reaches high Kiloton ranges) as well right
Well not quite
The Island of Delos is visibly tiny, being dwarfed by the giant statue of Apollo that looms over the chain. It’s clearly not an average sized island so assuming shaking it is going to require the same force is a massive and frankly bizarre assumption. This also doesn’t even account that, judging by the amount of major damage (or lack thereof) this likely wouldn’t be all that impressive in terms of magnitude earthquakes either.
And that’s ignoring the very real possibility that there is no earthquake. It’s certainly > every other feat I’ve seen for Demigod Kratos (relevant because he is shown as being on par with Monster Alecto) and there’s no reference from omniscient sources I can find that this did in fact shake an island.
It’s entirely possible the shaking of the camera is simply intended for dramatic effect and isn’t seriously implying Alecto casually vibrates an island chain by pushing down the Lantern of Delos.
I’m also willing to bet that assuming an actual earthquake would likely be above pretty much every other feat Kratos does in this game (the GPE of her monster form might be decent tho)
Well not quite
The Island of Delos is visibly tiny, being dwarfed by the giant statue of Apollo that looms over the chain. It’s clearly not an average sized island so assuming shaking it is going to require the same force is a massive and frankly bizarre assumption. This also doesn’t even account that, judging by the amount of major damage (or lack thereof) this likely wouldn’t be all that impressive in terms of magnitude earthquakes either.
And that’s ignoring the very real possibility that there is no earthquake. It’s certainly > every other feat I’ve seen for Demigod Kratos (relevant because he is shown as being on par with Monster Alecto) and there’s no reference from omniscient sources I can find that this did in fact shake an island.
It’s entirely possible the shaking of the camera is simply intended for dramatic effect and isn’t seriously implying Alecto casually vibrates an island chain by pushing down the Lantern of Delos.
I’m also willing to bet that assuming an actual earthquake would likely be above pretty much every other feat Kratos does in this game (the GPE of her monster form might be decent tho)
Ok so I was going to make this just about Ascension Kratos but then i realised this bullshit exists. Yeah so basically Persephone being the tier she is right now is dumb as hell. The reasoning is that she shattered the World Piller with her death explosion and this somehow extends to her regular power. This current reasoning leaves massive holes because of a few major issues
- If Persephone has the ability to just do this, why did she go on this huge scheme with Atlas? Why did she bother freeing Atlas to have him steal Helios’ power and then use him to shatter the Pillar That Holds The World? It’s just a massive amount of effort to expend when she can just do it herself
- Persephone is an absolutely irrelevant deity and we’re implying she’s = to the likes of an empowered Atlas
- We’re ignoring Atlas had several strikes in on the pillar before Persephone’s death, meaning it may well be somewhat weakened
- Persephone didn’t even destroy the whole pillar, there’s still a large portion Atlas is standing on
So Chains of Olympus Kratos gets top tier scaling based on the Gauntlet killing Persephone which obviously gets nuked if we downgrade Persephone. The other stuff adding to its current ratings are as follows:
So what about Charon? Well he doesn’t help much either since, while he beats Kratos in a straight fight (one of the few to do this),
He's not overwhelmingly stronger than the Ghost of Sparta and wins the fight by getting out of reach and wearing Kratos down with his magical attacks (if the boss fight is to be believed). Kratos even draws blood from Charon and slices through him with his own scythe during the QTE!
- It chains Atlas
- It was used to chain the other captive Titans
- It killed Charon, who stomped Kratos
So what about Charon? Well he doesn’t help much either since, while he beats Kratos in a straight fight (one of the few to do this),
He's not overwhelmingly stronger than the Ghost of Sparta and wins the fight by getting out of reach and wearing Kratos down with his magical attacks (if the boss fight is to be believed). Kratos even draws blood from Charon and slices through him with his own scythe during the QTE!
So currently Kratos is Class G for this. I’ve got no problem with it but there’s no calc and we seem to have just assumed the yield so I think this should have been calced before it’s being placed on the page. Again I don’t think there’s a canon weight to it at all (and if there is I can’t recall and it’s not listed anywhere).
Proposed Revisions
Kratos
To put it bluntly the current reasoning for 7-B Kratos is whack as **** and we need to either calculate feats to actually justify it or just flat out downgrade the characters. If it helps, Kratos is this tall in the Greek games.Considering the above reasoning is mostly whack I’d point out that we should probably try to calculate the feats Kratos does such as
- Smashing through stone walls (the Multiplayer opening gives us a size for this)
- Kratos smashing the Manticore through the snake at Delphi
- Pulverizes this wood
- Smashes through this wall
- Kratos smashing pillars in battle with Pollux and Castor
- Kratos smashing the brothers through the floor (YMMV)
- Aegean’s hands smashing through this roof
- Aegean’s hand smash building
- Kratos Being smashed through three walls by an Infected Hand
- Kratos smashing into Delos’ Lantern
- The GPE of Alecto’s Kaiju mode (we see a full model to give an idea of proportions)
- Cyclops smashes a large door
- The GPE of the Basilisk boi
- The GPE of the Hydra heads (this could be especially good if we mean the King head)
- The GPE of Pandora’s Guardian (proportions here)
- Kratos seemingly pulverizing this rock
- Persephone sends this rock flying (we can also see she shatters it here)
- Icarus (Who is likely weaker than Demigod Kratos) survives being slammed through boulders and a wall
Now Tier 7 Kratos will still live on; he’s still got statements of Typhoon level Magics via the Ice of Poseidon and that is valid. The issue is it would just be through that attack rather than his physical stats; so we’d be looking at it being noted as a “higher with magic” in his tiering
Redeemed Warrior
The Warrior also needs to be downgraded but since he’s weaker then Kratos he wouldn't scale. The problem here is most of the Warrior’s feats are gameplay based but we have some feats for them. He does luckily have several feats we could use; the executions could be helpful and we visibly see him tear apart Satyrs and other monsters which would likely scale him above 9-A and Icarus (as an insane old man) would likely be somewhat inferior to the Warriors of the Gods so we could upscale the Multiplayer character from that as well. There’s also one map (The Tower of Delphi) that involves him battling the Manticore which means we could use this feat the Manticore survives in its battle with Kratos (note I’m not arguing at all that we scale the Warrior to Kratos).I haven’t played Ascension’s multiplayer myself but if anyone else knows of good feats let me know. I can recall the Skorpius fight (which is baller) on the Labyrinth of Daedalus map which could be solid if we use the beast’s GPE and the monster can casually smash through large wooden walls in the Labyrinth which could be neat to calc (both of these feats at the very least would support RE being >> 9-A characters).
But don’t worry; the Warrior can still get higher with Weapons and Magic. The latter for reasons we’ve already discussed such as the ability to conjure large ice spikes like Kratos’ abilities but the former for him acquiring weapons such as the Blade of Artemis
Kratos
So basically Kratos has tons of feats which could line up with him being Class M (outside of just calcing the snake)- Lifts giant block
- Flips a street
- Pulls the Basilisk
- Pulls this structure
- Pulls the Hydra head
- Legpresses statue
- Pushes giant T
- Holds this piller a Cyclops tried to crush him with
- Pulls down this pillar
- Pushes the boulder
Redeemed Warrior
Basically the Warrior would just upscale based off Class K from these basic ass Spartans. You could also calc the chains he snaps or the weight of the hammers he has to actually wield to help add some consistency.
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