Gilgamesh's "Uncharged " Ea.

[Inoue211]

I just read this in Gilgamesh's profile.

"at least Small Island level with uncharged Ea (is more than a match for Saber's full powered Excalibur, also destroyed Rider's Reality Marble); "

First i'd like to ask what's the reasoning behind putting Rider's RM as a feat there, Gilgamesh doesn't destroy Ionan Hetairoi, he just kills half the army and thus the RM disappears since it needs the power of Iskandar along with half his army to take form. I don't know why it was listed like that since Gil never destroyed the RM directly.

What I would like to discuss is "Uncharged Ea is more than a match for Saber's full powered Excalibur"

This is wrong, I'll post 3 quotes of Fate Materials to prove that it's definetely not "Uncharged", though they're quite long so I'll do it below.

 

[Inoue211]

First

Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: The Star of Creation that Split Heaven & Earth [Noble Phantasm], p.066

The Star of Creation that Split Heaven and Earth [Noble Phantasm] Enuma Elish. The cutting of space with the Sword of Rupture, Ea. Air pressure faults, compressed and smashed against each other, become a pseudo-fault in time and space that pulverizes all who oppose it. With output matching or even exceeding Excalibur, it is without a doubt the sword that "cut the world". Strictly speaking, the Noble Phantasm is actually Ea, while Enuma Elish is the name of Ea's maximum output state.

Second

Fate/complete material II: Character material - Weapons: Ea, p.133

Gilgamesh's favored Noble Phantasm, the Sword of Rupture Ea. Of all his countless Noble Phantasms, this is one of the few that he trusts implicitly. The blade is divided into three parts, all of which rotate individually. Honestly, calling it a sword at all is a bit of a farce. When it goes into overload, gaseous energy shoots out of the seams between the segments. The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called "Enuma Elish", and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur.

Third

Fate/complete material III: World Material - The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Gilgamesh, p.024-025

Noble Phantasms The Star of Genesis which Separates the Heaven and Earth ― Enuma Elish

Rank: EX

Type: Anti-World

Range: 1~99 Maximum Targets: 1000 People

The sword that cuts and divides the World, with output matching or even exceeds Artoria's Excalibur. Its power will further increase given the support of Noble Phantasms within Gate of Babylon. More correctly speaking, "Sword of Rupture ― Ea" is the Noble Phantasm, "Enuma Elish" is the state under which Sword of Rupture ― Ea unleashes its maximum output.

 

[Inoue211]

Now what i'm pointing out in there is that when Gilgamesh uses "Enuma Elish" means that he's using it to it's maximum output, as it's clearly said in those 3 materials.

In Fate route he clearly uses "Enuma Elish"(I mean, he shouts "Enuma Elish" it's not like i'm speculating).


"Enuma Elish" is the state under which Sword of Rupture ― Ea unleashes its maximum output"

I.. don't really have anything else to say, the materials say it matches(or could even exceed) Arturia's Excalibur, but it's talking about the max output so the whole uncharged thing bugs me.

Just thought that everyone interested should definetely give it a read and reach some sort of conclussion.

 

[The_Living_Tribunal1]

following thread

 

[Alakabamm]

It definitely exceeds Excalibur, she even gets overwhelmed by it several times and requires Avalon to even fight against it.

As for destroying Ionian Hetaroi, it definitely was destroying it without even considering the army. The sky started breaking up far before the soldiers began to disappear....it's even described as an anti-RM noble phantams because it destroys "worlds"

Unsure about the uncharged EA thing though

 

[Inoue211]

1- The excalibur that exceeded was Shirou's Saber who we have as Mountain(I think) level and then yes, Saber used Avalon. Gilgamesh's profile says that "Uncharged Ea is more than a match for full powered Excalibur", not Shirou's Saber.

By the way, I agree it might exceed it when both are at full power, however the Materials talk about maximum output Ea being equal or stronger(which means it's a close difference no matter what) which is why I made the thread, Uncharged Ea doesn't exceed Excalibur that's what we have in his profile.

This is I what I mean.

2-I agree it was destroying it and I do know what Ea does but it wasn't instantly the RM disappeared because soldiers died, he eventually would've destroyed IA but it takes more time. Also Gilgamesh once again says "Enuma Elish" which means it wasn't really uncharged.

Ea doesn't act instantly, in HA when he goes serious reveals the truth it takes some time and the part of Gaia "destroyed" reforms itself almost instantly like nothing happened.

Also Ea erasing a RM is more hax than anything because of Ea's concept. Same way Shiki can kill RMs doesn't mean he has a huge DC.

Anyway nevermind this, I mostly care about the Excalibur Ea thing.

 

[KamiYasha]

Wrong. Shirou "Excalibur" isn't Excalibur. It's Caliburn, that sword isn't even capable of withstand saber's magical energy.

 

[Inoue211]

? You misread my post

I said Shirou's Saber, not Shirou's Excalibur, as in Saber when she was Shirou's servant. That's the one listed as Mountain level here.

I never mentioned Shirou using Excalibur, though he does project a degraded version in HF but that's not what I was talking about.

 

[KamiYasha]

Well, there is the fact that he was trying to not kill saber with EA in fate route.

So i believe he was holding back.

 

[Inoue211]

Wrong.

 

[Inoue211]

First
Fate/side material - Encyclopedia: The Star of Creation that Split Heaven & Earth [Noble Phantasm], p.066

The Star of Creation that Split Heaven and Earth [Noble Phantasm] Enuma Elish. The cutting of space with the Sword of Rupture, Ea. Air pressure faults, compressed and smashed against each other, become a pseudo-fault in time and space that pulverizes all who oppose it. With output matching or even exceeding Excalibur, it is without a doubt the sword that "cut the world". Strictly speaking, the Noble Phantasm is actually Ea, while Enuma Elish is the name of Ea's maximum output state.

Second

Fate/complete material II: Character material - Weapons: Ea, p.133

Gilgamesh's favored Noble Phantasm, the Sword of Rupture Ea. Of all his countless Noble Phantasms, this is one of the few that he trusts implicitly. The blade is divided into three parts, all of which rotate individually. Honestly, calling it a sword at all is a bit of a farce. When it goes into overload, gaseous energy shoots out of the seams between the segments. The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called "Enuma Elish", and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur.

Third

Fate/complete material III: World Material - The Servants of the Fifth Holy Grail War: Gilgamesh, p.024-025

Noble Phantasms The Star of Genesis which Separates the Heaven and Earth ― Enuma Elish

Rank: EX

Type: Anti-World

Range: 1~99 Maximum Targets: 1000 People

The sword that cuts and divides the World, with output matching or even exceeds Artoria's Excalibur. Its power will further increase given the support of Noble Phantasms within Gate of Babylon. More correctly speaking, "Sword of Rupture ― Ea" is the Noble Phantasm, "Enuma Elish" is the state under which Sword of Rupture ― Ea unleashes its maximum output.

And Please, stop ignoring the first post in this thread, it's the entire reason for the thread being made. If you ignore it then what's the point?

Uncharged Ea is not stronger than Excalibur

 

[KamiYasha]

Uncharged Ea is not stronger than Excalibur

Kinda. You need to considered the fact that Ea charges up over time and rotation.

Also, as it says on Type-Moon wikia

The level he utilizes against Saber in Fate/stay night is held back for most of the time, and it is blocked the one time he decides to get serious about killing her.

 

[Inoue211]

...You're not posting anything new, what Gilgamesh surpassed was Shirou's Saber Excalibur, not full powered Excalibur. So you're basically repeating what I already said, what's the point?


Again, uncharged Ea is not superior to full powered Excalibur, as said three times in different materials published over the years, which you keep ignoring for whatever reason.

Full powered Ea is on par or slightly better than Full powered Excalibur.

Ea is good because of Hax, not because of DC, so I have no idea why people think it's supposed to have the highest DC out of every weapon.

 

[Reppuzan]

Because it is explicitly the most powerful Noble Phantasm in terms of destructive output, period.

This includes the likes of Anti-Country Noble Phantasms like Karna's Brahmastra Kundala and Arjuna's Pashupata, which is potentially even stronger due to being the single most powerful weapon in Hindu Mythology.

Nothing in the Nasuverse short of Avalon and maybe Lord Camelot (and Akasha obviously) can take a full power Ea since it shows the "Truth", like Slash Emperor, which is powerful enough to take down Archetypes, who are far above the likes of Kiara, who grows larger than a planet as part of her Noble Phantasm.

In addition, according to the Type-Moon wiki's account on Ea and Fate/Strange Extra, he only other case in which Enuma Elish was used at full power was during his fight against Enkidu, in which the world was indeed pulled apart and put back together by their respective versions of the attack.

Finally, Shirou NEVER traced Excalibur outside of the Normal End of the Heaven's Feel route. Saber was indeed holding her own Excalibur in the route you've specified (meaning Fate) and is thus the original and at full power.

 

[Inoue211]

Well this is going to be long.

"Because it is explicitly the most powerful Noble Phantasm in terms of destructive output, period."

Ea is literally never said to have the highest destructive output, next time post source of what you're saying. Here i'll quote materials:

"It's true power is not something to be used against a single living creature but against the world. Even among the many Noble Phantasms possessed by Servants, it is one considered to be at the top, the sword "which tore apart the world". "


As it says there, Ea's true power is being Anti-World, this is not DC but HAX.

And Excalibur is said to be equals or slightly weaker than Ea in destructive output(you know, those colored laser beams they shoot, the things that actually blow things up) as I already posted. "The space-cutting technique fired from this overloaded state is called "Enuma Elish", and boasts destructive power on the same level as Excalibur." By the way, both Ea and Excalibur have the same max number of targets(1000 people)

Why does one count and the other doesn't? You're not making any sense here.

"This includes the likes of Anti-Country Noble Phantasms like Karna's Brahmastra Kundala and Arjuna's Pashupata, which is potentially even stronger due to being the single most powerful weapon in Hindu Mythology.

Nothing in the Nasuverse short of Avalon and maybe Lord Camelot (and Akasha obviously) can take a full power Ea since it shows the "Truth", like Slash Emperor, which is powerful enough to take down Archetypes, who are far above the likes of Kiara, who grows larger than a planet as part of her Noble Phantasm."

Except Excalibur is said to have the same destructive output(again, laser beams). So what you're saying is wrong.

And Again Ea is never said to have the highest destructive output, showing the truth of the world is HAX not DC.

"In addition, according to the Type-Moon wiki's account on Ea and Fate/Strange Extra, he only other case in which Enuma Elish was used at full power was during his fight against Enkidu, in which the world was indeed pulled apart and put back together by their respective versions of the attack."

The world being pulled apart is not DC, it's HAX. Ea destroys worlds, doesn't mean it blows things up like a bomb, not DC. And what TM Wikia says about is being the "only case" is not canon since they're a fan page, the VN and Materials are canon and word of god. Also, in Extra Gilgamesh was boosted by Akasha, that's not his original power, they're called Origin Boosted Servants for a reason.

In the VN(as I already posted) Gilgamesh used max power Ea, in the Materials it SAYS that Ea's DC is equal or slightly higher than Excalibur's.


To repeat it again, Ea is not about blowing things, it's about Hax, that's why it's a top NP.


"Finally, Shirou NEVER traced Excalibur outside of the Normal End of the Heaven's Feel route."

I never said anything about Shirou tracing Excalibur outside of Heaven's Feel, next time actually read the thread before posting, it makes things much easier.

"Saber was indeed holding her own Excalibur in the route you've specified (meaning Fate) and is thus the original and at full power."


Except in here it clearly says that Saber's Excalibur is not full powered when under Shirou, i'm just going by what's written in her profile,"She was plagued by a lack of mana during the aforementioned examples, a fully charged Excalibur is likely to be far more powerful". Excalibur is a sword that converts the user's Mana into energy and shoots it, Saber being under Shirou makes her weaker, in the final attack against Gilgamesh she turns her own Armor into Mana in order to make the attack more powerful.

So again, an uncharged Ea is not stronger than a full powered Excalibur as said by several materials.


I'm out now, need to do some things, still the materials and VN pics are already posted so I don't really need to post anything else, it was fun debating though. If anyone feels like contradicting the VN and Materials then I certainly can't do anything about that so I'll just try to not make the thread unreadable and too long when all that's necessary is in the first posts..

 

[Reppuzan]

First off, you weren't clear with your wording. By "Shirou's Excalibur", you seemed to imply that it was Shirou's traced Excalibur, not Saber's under Shirou.

I don't know the specifics of Type-Moon, but given the fact that it overpowered Excalibur with such ease while uncharged, even under Shirou (meaning that it's Mountain level) despite staking everything on it. Curbstomping a Mountain level attack that casually ought to count for something.

Still, Gil's appearance in CCC certainly counts for something, as he's more like how he was in life and is willing to put more effort into using Ea. Thus his Large Planet level rating for a fully charged Ea.

 

[Inoue211]

Oh i'm back, just had time.

"First off, you weren't clear with your wording. By "Shirou's Excalibur", you seemed to imply that it was Shirou's traced Excalibur, not Saber's under Shirou."

I get what you mean but I already explained the same thing to KamiYasha which is why I said to read the thread, it makes things easier and less convoluted if someone doesn't have to repeat things 2 or 3 times.

"I don't know the specifics of Type-Moon, but given the fact that it overpowered Excalibur with such ease while uncharged, even under Shirou (meaning that it's Mountain level) despite staking everything on it. Curbstomping a Mountain level attack that casually ought to count for something."

It wasn't with such "ease" when Gilgamesh used his full power(the last pic I posted, white background, read it) he literally BTFO Excalibur, but until then it was hanging on to some degree. It was only overpowered with ease after that, and then Saber used Avalon.

And it seems you don't understand my point, all i'm saying is that UNCHARGED Ea is not stronger than full powered Excalibur, Gilgamesh only easily overpowered it when he used his full power in that last pic as it clearly says, and that was against Shirou's Saber. Full power Ea is equals or slightly better than Full power Excalibur as the materials say, that's all i'm posting here, what the materials say.

"Still, Gil's appearance in CCC certainly counts for something, as he's more like how he was in life and is willing to put more effort into using Ea."

Origin Boosted Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh boosted by the root, boosted by reaching the heroic spirit's origin. You could compare it to Shirazumi Lio in KnK but of course in a different scale. I'm not saying it's not worth anything i'm just saying you're comparing someone racing in a F1 car with someone on a Volkswagen Beetle.


"Thus his Large Planet level rating for a fully charged Ea."


Again that's because he's being boosted, Gilgamesh can affect the "world" with his Hax but he normally cannot produce an attack with that actual DC or at least we've never seen it, even in StrangeFake when they tell us about his fight with Enkidu thousands of years ago it says that Ea was destroying the "world" and Enkidu's Ea was keeping that at bay but nothing about blowing the planet is ever implied, that's because Ea is not really about DC, it's true power is being anti-world. If Saber Alter while under Sakura uses Excalibur she'll be much more powerful than being under Shirou as long as she puts a lot of mana into the attack, if we assume Saber gets the same origin boost it will also be more powerful. Using a Gilgamesh that has pretty much lost the restrictions of classes(hell his Class is called GILGAMESH) and is also boosted is not an ideal comparison, his vessel is much better and then it's amped.

CCC is a different thing from F/SN anyways, Nasu even recommends not taking Zero and SN as the same so you can imagine what he must think about Extra.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Extra CCC Ea is the same as in Stay Night, Zero, etc. So you can powerscale it from that.

The Reality Marble would've been destroyed by Ea, but it disappeared since Rider and his soldiers couldn't support it.

Also Ea>Excalibur, even at lowest setting.

I see no problem here.

 

[Alakabamm]

Extra CCC Ea is the same as in Stay Night, Zero, etc. So you can powerscale it from that.

We have no way of knowing that.

 

[KamiYasha]

Not exactly. Origin Gilgamesh (F/Extra CCC) is far above his crappy servant vessel.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

Extra CCC Ea is the same as in Stay Night, Zero, etc. So you can powerscale it from that.

We have no way of knowing that.

Is there any information indicating that Ea changed in CCC? The rank is still the same, its effect is the same. The only possibility is that Ea's power directly scales from Gilgamesh's power, but there is no evidence to support that.

 

[Inoue211]

Well this will be another long post.

@ThisIsMySwagPack "Extra CCC Ea is the same as in Stay Night, Zero, etc."

No it's not.

"The only possibility is that Ea's power directly scales from Gilgamesh's power, but there is no evidence to support that."

Are you even reading the thread?

"Reading Ea the golden knight looks at the enemy approaching him and puts magic energy into Ea. This will be it, he will completely annihilate Saber with all his power" "Ea's turns reach their maximum speed and the light surrounding Saber mows down Excalibur"

"Enuma Elish" is the state under which Sword of Rupture ― Ea unleashes its maximum output" like the materials say,to resume it's the activation name(EX-CALIBUR or RULE BREAKER you get the point) but then more magical Energy = More power for Ea(as it's proved when he goes all out and Ea reaches it's maximum output, in the scene I quoted above). And by the way, Gilgamesh has a lot of Mana in Stay Night "In Sakura Route, since she devoured an unexpectedly large amount of mana from Gilgamesh, Sakura who was barely maintaining herself, buckled like a broken dam."


Now that we're finished with that Mana part i'm going to adress the reason why CCC Gil is not the same as Stay Night Gil.

First of all for the people that don't know this to make it more simple to understand, Servants are limited by their class vessels so they can't draw their full power, the power of the heroic spirit. For example Cu Chulainn has several NPs he can't access as a Lancer, he's really good at magic(he's in GO) and he has different stats but as a Lancer all he can do is use some basic runes to boost himself. As a Saber he would have Fragarach I thnk. Other NPs are a chariot and a castle if I remember correctly too and he probably has more we don't know about. Point being, Servants can be a lot more powerful/versatile if they're not limited by class containers.

Now why am I mentioning this? because in CCC since the beginning he is not limited, he's not Archer, Saber, Lancer, Rider, Caster, Berserker or Assassin, his class is called GILGAMESH. I doubt I need to explain what being in the class "Gilgamesh" means since it's goddamn obvious. Anyways as a side note Nasu in TM Ace said that there was no need to contain Gilgamesh with classes anymore. So since the beginning Gilgamesh is different from his Stay Night self.

Next

On top of that because it's not enough, in CCC characters get boosted by the root because they need a power up, that's why they become Origin boosted like I said in posts above.

Gilgamesh's best feat by himself(as in, his full powered self, not being a servant or anything) is the one we know in Strange Fake, i'll repeat what I posted before "even in StrangeFake when they tell us about his fight with Enkidu thousands of years ago it says that Ea was destroying the "world" and Enkidu's Ea was keeping that at bay but nothing about blowing the planet is ever implied, that's because Ea is not really about DC, it's true power is being anti-world"


That's why I said it's like trying to compare a guy in a F1 car to another in a Beetle. It's not really good comparing a not limited and then amped Gilgamesh to a nerfed(Shirou's servant, can barely shoot excalibur), limited(Saber class), and not amped(she hasn't been boosted by the root) Arturia. Or in Stay Night's case, comparing him to a weakened Excalibur which he had to use his full power to stomp.


"Also Ea>Excalibur, even at lowest setting."

This is wrong, next time post evidence of the things you're saying because otherwise it's just a vague claim. Especially when in the thread I've posted several materials and VN CGs that prove your claim wrong.


So like I said probably 10 times now, an uncharged Ea is not more powerful than full powered Excalibur. Only Full Powered Ea can tie/beat a Full powered Excalibur. And again, i'm talking about DC not hax.

 

[NNin]

I think I know what Inoue211 tried to point out.

Ea shows different output through out the francises. Enuma Elish, a charged attack that can beat Excalibur everytime in Fate Route. A casual blast that Gilgamesh used to blast grail's hand and Shirou in UFOtable's UBW adaption. Simple slash and stab Gilgamesh uses in UC and when he fisnish off Iskandar.

I think Ea still needs to spin and charge to unlease higher output and Gilgamesh's condition must be ready for it. As seen in Prisma Illiya, he can't fully unlease Ea's power in his child form.

So, low charged Ea, like that one Gilgamesh used to blast the hand and didn't kill Shirou, seem weaker than Excalibur. He needs to raise its output, using Enuma Elish to push back Excalibur's beam. I believe the hold back refers to his adjusting Ea's output to the level that just enough to beat Excalibur. Then he stops the spin before that space-time rupture shreds Artoria to pieces.

 

[ThisIsMySwagPack]

I think I know what Inoue211 tried to point out.
Ea shows different output through out the francises. Enuma Elish, a charged attack that can beat Excalibur everytime in Fate Route. A casual blast that Gilgamesh used to blast grail's hand and Shirou in UFOtable's UBW adaption. Simple slash and stab Gilgamesh uses in UC and when he fisnish off Iskandar.

I think Ea still needs to spin and charge to unlease higher output and Gilgamesh's condition must be ready for it. As seen in Prisma Illiya, he can't fully unlease Ea's power in his child form.

So, low charged Ea, like that one Gilgamesh used to blast the hand and didn't kill Shirou, seem weaker than Excalibur. He needs to raise its output, using Enuma Elish to push back Excalibur's beam. I believe the hold back refers to his adjusting Ea's output to the level that just enough to beat Excalibur. Then he stops the spin before that space-time rupture shreds Artoria to pieces.

This is well said. The only thing I have to add is that using Ea against Grail's hand was really just to show Ea. I don't remember that happening in visual novel, but still it barely even spun.

 

[NNin]

I understand why people may think there are Charged and Uncharged Ea. That destructive power it did in Fate route and Hollow Ataraxia looks very different. But since Gilgamesh clearly "Enuma Elish!" in his matchs with Artoria and Iskandar, those attacks should considered Charged, as stated in the materials. Its Uncharged should be that quick blast which Gilgamesh uses to the grail hand or as attack skill in Extra/CCC.

The reason why Enuma Elish shows various levels in power is... Gilgamesh can choose how much power to unlease once Enuna Elish is ready, I think. From the destructive wave that beat Excalibur to the giant wave in Extra/CCC to the world shaking wave then the rupturing wave that shreds the world. It seem that his own power affect Ea as well. Gilgamesh can't fully use it in his child form in Prisma Illiya while he has no such problem in SN. And in Extra/CCC where Gilgamesh has no limit by class, it looks more powerful.

So Inoue thinks Uncharged and Charged are incorrect. They should be Low Output and High Output. Or drop them all and add only Ea's feats, maybe.

 

[Inoue211]

I should(or at least try to but i'll probably fail) resume a bit what I said to make it more direct after all those posts:

In Stay Night Gilgamesh uses his full power and then stomps a weakened Excalibur, as it's said in the visual novel pics I posted. So my point is that uncharged Ea is not "more than a match" against full powered Excalibur, Gilgamesh was not holding back so you can't just say that an "uncharged" Ea beat Excalibur. Against Saber he says "Enuma Elish" and puts all his magical power into the attack, then "Ea's turns reach their maximum output".

Now in CCC Gilgamesh does have a higher output with Ea, but that's because he himself is a completely different character, he's not limited by classes(he basically should have access to the original power of heroic spirit Gilgamesh, hence why his class is outright called Gilgamesh and Nasu said that he's not limited) and then on top of that he's got a boost from the root.

So the fact that in CCC Gilgamesh makes a stronger Enuma Elish doesn't mean Ea was uncharged in F/SN, it just means that CCC Gilgamesh is more powerful. But it's not logical comparing this version of Gilgamesh against a gimped Saber and saying that he wasn't going all out in SN and he beat her anyway, it's not true. It would be like in Dragon Ball saying "Saiyan Saga Goku's kamehameha was not full powered because Super Saiyan Goku could stop Vegeta's Gallick Gun with his finger", or some silly thing like that if it makes sense.


So, what I think is wrong in his profile for the F/SN key is the "Uncharged Ea is more than a match for Excalibur at full power", so it should just be deleted. Also I think destroying Iskandar's reality marble should be explained to have been made because of hax and not raw power since Gilgamesh didn't nuke the RM with a beam or something, he used Ea's concept as an "anti-world" to erase it bit by bit until half the army died and it disappeared.

Also the final key(if it's referring to CCC Gil after being powered up) should be changed to "Origin Boosted Gilgamesh" instead of "Gilgamesh's original form as a heroic spirit" because the original Gilgamesh(in the throne of heroes) as far as we know is not powered up by the origin/root/akasha whatever you want to call it, that's just his CCC copy.

 

[Alakabamm]

"he used Ea's concept as an "anti-world" to erase it bit by bit until half the army died and it disappeared." -> This is untrue and I don't agree with your views on him getting rid of Rider's RM. The reality marble was fading far before the Heroic Spirits were gone. He broke the sky, for god's sake.

I also disagree with your assumptions regarding CCC. You are basing your entire theory of "original Gil" based off the simple block of text that regards Mythic Formal Wear, the same block of text that doesn't clarify what amount of power he has reattained in the least, only that he is boosted from regular servant form. Furthermore, I need a source of that "root-boosted" thing.

I don't care about Uncharged EA in the least but these things are wrong.

 

[Alakabamm]

Furthermore, regarding Ionian Hetaroi:

https://******************/project/index.php?title=Fate/Zero:Act_16

"The Sword of Rupture commanded by the King of Heroes - what its single strike bore through was not only the earth, but the world itself, stretching to the sky. The attack was not even something to be discussed as a matter of whether it hit, or whether its force was advisable. Soldiers, horses, the dust, the sky - nearly everything that used the cut space as a foundation was swallowed and disappeared into the surging void."

"Rider and Waver could not ascertain all of this to the end. To begin with, the Reality Marble they were in was maintained by the total prana of the summoned Heroic Spirits. Before the world itself disappeared, the bounded field broke apart at the seams once over half of the army had been lost, and the distorted laws of space once again returned to the way they had been."


It easily can bust RMs without consideration for prana costs.

 

[Alakabamm]

Furthermore, after reading through a few posts, I am almost sure you have mixed up Mythic Formal Wear as being some kind of "origin boost" instead of just the heroes regaining some of their power. Well, you would be wrong:

"Rani: Correct, we will dive into the digital body of the Servant, directly access the core of the Heroic Spirit, and unlock the root of the Heroic Spirit sealed by the Moon Cell - its mythological formal wear"

Formal Wear is not some origin boost, it is their own power, sealed away by the Moon Cell. Comparing it to Kara no Kyokai is very strange. In KnK, the characters are awakened to their own origin and become dictated by it. They are not so much regaining what they lost moreso than becoming governed by what they originated from.

 

[Inoue211]

"he used Ea's concept as an "anti-world" to erase it bit by bit until half the army died and it disappeared." -> This is untrue and I don't agree with your views on him getting rid of Rider's RM. The reality marble was fading far before the Heroic Spirits were gone. He broke the sky, for god's sake."

And I never denied that, but my point is that he didn't destroy it with a blast(like the red blast he clashes with Excalibur) that we could call pure power, he did it with Ea's Hax and it collapsed completely when half the army died, hence why I think it should be explained to have been done with Hax and not just raw power.


"You are basing your entire theory of "original Gil" based off the simple block of text that regards Mythic Formal Wear, the same block of text that doesn't clarify what amount of power he has reattained in the least, only that he is boosted from regular servant form. Furthermore, I need a source of that "root-boosted" thing."

What source do you need? in the game they get access to their Origin and power up, you just said it. Accessing your origin is the same thing Shirazumi Lio did in Kara no Kyokai. Unless you want to tell me Shirazumi Lio was like that before Araya unlocked his origin. He was pretty much a normal human as far as I remember, well discarding the fact that he eats people and all that.

And "only that he is boosted from regular servant form" except Gilgamesh's "regular" Servant form in CCC is not regular at all, he's not an Archer or any other class, his class is Gilgamesh and it's not restricted, it's true that we don't know how much power he has compared to his Throne self but we can say that he has much more access to that power than a normal servant and he might even have all that power but the point is that from the beginnig he's more powerful than his Archer self(F/SN and Zero). In fact that is the reason he can exist only in the far-side of the moon cell, because "Gilgamesh" class Gilgamesh too powerful.

I'm only saying that the final key should be changed in name to Origin Boosted Gilgamesh instead of Gilgamesh's original form as a heroic spirit(or something like that) because we don't know if the Gilgamesh in the throne is weaker or stronger, we just don't know anything.

 

[Alakabamm]

1: And I never denied that, but my point is that he didn't destroy it with a blast(like the red blast he clashes with Excalibur) that we could call pure power, he did it with Ea's Hax, hence why I think it should be explained to have been done with Hax and not just raw power.
2: What source do you need? in the game they get access to their Origin and power up, you just said it. Accessing your origin is the same thing Shirazumi Lio did in Kara no Kyokai. Unless you want to tell me Shirazumi Lio was like that before Araya unlocked his origin. He was pretty much a normal human as far as I remember, well discarding the fact that he eats people and all that.

1. Read what I posted directly from the LN, I don't think that is "hax" when it is described as directly sucking up the entire world and blowing it away. It is very much so raw power.

2. Read the quote I posted above regarding mythological formal wear. Again, comparing a servant to a regular human who is awakened to their origin is a rather insufficient comparison and certainly not one which applies.

 

[Inoue211]

Still the main point of this thread is about the Uncharged Ea thing in F/SN so if you don't care about it then let's not derail the thread since I don't particularly care about CCC Gil either and the only reason I mentioned CCC was to explain that F/SN Gil(Archer) and CCC Gil(Gilgamesh) are different characters.

So feel free to ignore it since that possible correction is not really relevant to the purpose here and I proposed it because it was just at hand.

 

[Alakabamm]

Okay, well, I agree with your assessment of uncharged EA so far, somewhat because Nasu himself doesn't like to clearly define these things well

 

[Inoue211]

Just read your other posts.

1-I feel like you don't understand what I meant about Hax and raw power. What I mean about Raw power is the red light "beam" that Ea shoots, I don't recall it being mentioned that he nuked the RM with that "beam" but in your quote it says the attack so that might have been it. What I mean about hax is Gilgamesh tearing worlds with Ea, which are different things considering it never showed that effect against Saber in the clash.

2-Like I said in my post "Also the final key(if it's referring to CCC Gil after being powered up)" if the final Key was referring to that then it should be changed.

I didn't understand what it was referring to that's why I said "if it is". I thought that the "large planet level" thing was about "Gilgamesh's original form as a heroic spirit" which would be wrong since the original Gil is featless.

But it seems that Key is there for no reasons since there are no feats listed to it, we were talking about different things I guess because of my mistake.

 

[Alakabamm]

CCC Gil powered up is Mythological Formal Wear Gil, not Origin Boosted Gil (if such a thing even exists, which I doubt). In fact, the quote I picked was from a translation of a conversation with Gil. The key is quite accurate. They even say "original form" in that same conversation.

I don't agree that the "beam" and the "tearing of the world" are two different things.

 

[Inoue211]

Leaving CCC origin and all that asides since we were in different pages because of my mistake.


"I don't agree that the "beam" and the "tearing of the world" are two different things."

First of all, not saying that you're wrong but I think they're different since I don't remember Gilgamesh tearing the world apart when he used it against Saber.

Still, it can of course be that Gil decides wheter to target the world or not when he shoots Enuma Elish and since against Excalibur "destroying" the world is pointless(I mean what does he get from attacking Gaia when he has to overpower Excalibur) he didn't do it. Or that i'm just misremembering and it was tearing the world apart too.

 

[Alakabamm]

Per the Fate/Zero TL, when he wants to target the world, he aims at nothing at all.

 

[Inoue211]

I guess it's different uses of the same attack or something like that. So I guess the part about IH can be left as it is.


I had missed this post "Okay, well, I agree with your assessment of uncharged EA so far, somewhat because Nasu himself doesn't like to clearly define these things well" . Sorry


So do you think the uncharged Ea bla bla thing can be deleted? High 7-A with uncharged Ea to just "High 7-A" and

"at least Small Island level with uncharged Ea (is more than a match for Saber's full powered Excalibur, also destroyed Rider's Reality Marble)"

To "at least Small Island level with Ea (destroyed Rider's Reality Marble)"

 

[Alakabamm]

Yes, also you should be able to add those databook statements that it can match or exceed Excalibur as well

 

[Promestein]

"At least Small Island level with Ea" sounds reasonable to me as well.