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Genshin Impact General Discussion!
- Thread starter Tyri456
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- genshin impact
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- #526
should we add his other forms too?Btw dibs on Childe
Edit: Childe's done.
Tartaglia
Tartaglia, birth name Ajax and most commonly referred to as Childe, is the Eleventh of the Fatui Harbingers and the Tsaritsa's personal weapon of war. A master of all forms of weaponry save for the bow, he continually seeks greater power at seemingly no regard for the costs involved and respects...vsbattles.fandom.com
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In short, no calcs. We don't know the dimensions of Pilos Peak, the timeframe of the yeetage, etc. Mountain-related feats can be as low as Small City level iirc, so without a calc or irl reference to back it up, we have no real way of saying that Peak Barbatos is Mountain level or higher.
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Coming back here after finishing (most) of my IRL stuff just to see this mess is... painful to say the least, but for a moment, lets ignore my opinion about the state of the profiles and let me ask instead, why are we using a calc that wasnt even accepted for literally every single profile?!
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I wasn't aware of there being an official channel to get calcs accepted (which in hindsight, I should've thought of as weird), so my bad, I guess.
Don't see why you gotta get so worked up over it or the profiles, though. We can just get them looked at and revise as needed. If they're invalid, then we find some other feat.
Don't see why you gotta get so worked up over it or the profiles, though. We can just get them looked at and revise as needed. If they're invalid, then we find some other feat.
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Zhongli buffs
gamewith.net
Genshin Impact | Buff For Zhongli - 1.3 Adjustment & Changes - GameWith
Zhongli having buffs and adjustments for Version 1.3 of Genshin Impact. Find out skill changes, when is the buff, new effects, release date, uses of skills and boosts.
gamewith.net
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Speaking of Zhongli, would it be possibly to calc his Planet Befall's cloud piercing?
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Anywho, the Razor calc has been properly evaluated now. Apparently, the horizon distance calculator is no longer valid on this site for whatever reason, otherwise the calc would've been fine. I'm gonna repost the re-calc and get that evaluated, but the result I got for it is 0.51 Megatons. So, Large Town level.
Edit: Here it is.
Edit: Here it is.
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The domain entry animation update confirms that domains are pocket dimensions.
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The Primo Geovishap woke up due to the earthquake and didn't make it >. >
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While I am here, you listed the calc as "priority one, scales to everyone", even though that feat is just enviromental destruction, never used to harm anyone.
Also, when did Amber ever dodge lightning?
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The feat doesn't need to damage anyone to scale to AP considering it is created with their power. Plus, Genshin has a Universal Energy source so they are fine to scale to it regardless. Things like forming storm clouds, or storm feats in general are still viable for AP once Universal Energy Sources are involved.
Just clarifying how feats like these are handled.
EDIT: It helps that in this case, said feat happens as a result of him charging his attack. So he would still have to be channeling this much energy with his attack to cause that.
Just clarifying how feats like these are handled.
EDIT: It helps that in this case, said feat happens as a result of him charging his attack. So he would still have to be channeling this much energy with his attack to cause that.
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What Dragon said.
If a character can directly create something of a certain potency entirely out of their own power, and the same power can be used to perform different attacks, that scales to AP. This is made especially clear considering the storm clouds are formed as a result of Razor charging his attack. We even have a direct correlation between the storm clouds and the potency of the lightning made by Razor himself stating in "About: Lisa" that Lisa's lightning is what causes her storm clouds to form, not the other way around. Seeing as Razor's feat is identical and that Lisa is Razor's mentor in using his Electro Vision, we can reasonably assume that he knows how said lightning works; giving his statement credibility.
If a character can directly create something of a certain potency entirely out of their own power, and the same power can be used to perform different attacks, that scales to AP. This is made especially clear considering the storm clouds are formed as a result of Razor charging his attack. We even have a direct correlation between the storm clouds and the potency of the lightning made by Razor himself stating in "About: Lisa" that Lisa's lightning is what causes her storm clouds to form, not the other way around. Seeing as Razor's feat is identical and that Lisa is Razor's mentor in using his Electro Vision, we can reasonably assume that he knows how said lightning works; giving his statement credibility.
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"After an extended casting period, calls down lightning from the heavens" -Lisa's skill description.
She doesn't create the lightning, but summons it, so no, it's not her lightning that makes the storm, but the storm that makes the lightning, which brings us to the next issue.
Neither Lisa nor Razor are showoffs and we know the storm isn't just a byproduct, which means it's a necessity. Then the next question would be "why summon a storm if you can just use that power to attack with literally any other attack!?", which is a question that needs to be answered, regardless of whether the storm is necessary or not, since either way it'd be a massive waste for no reason. Also, wdym by "universal energy source"? Are you saying "all their attacks come from the same source, their vision" or "all vision draw energy from the same source"? Either way that doesn't really matter, since it's magic and can't be measured in joules until it's used. Whether it takes more "magic" to create a storm or a single lightning strike is completely up to the author, since it's a completely fictional power source with fictional properties.
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1. Razor and Lisa are the ones creating the storms in the first place
2. Elemental Energy is the "universal energy source
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Also, should every character in the game have Surface Scaling for being able to hekkin spider man up cliffs
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The point is that Lisa still summoned the storm clouds and as such this is still a valid feat on this site. Those storm clouds have to come from something. Those clouds aren't just suddenly there, the obvious assumption is that she flat out creates those clouds that release the lightning. Which would still be a feat that scales to stats.
That's not how things work here. These are really just nitpicks. Lisa and Razor being show offs or not is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that they summon the storm clouds with their power to use said attack which is the feat that is being calculated.
This question really doesn't need to be answered. The fact of the matter is that they have enough power to easily perform an attack like that. That alone is enough to scale to AP. It clearly isn't a waste of energy considering it's one of their main attacks that they can use multiple times in a fight.
Yes, it matters. Just like any other verse with Magic or in this case Elemental Energy, we in fact do still scale them to feats like this. Especially when this power is used for literally any type of attack they do minus regular sword attacks. For characters like Lisa, she uses this power for literally every single attack. There is still an energy yield that is needed to create the storm clouds and as such that does scale to the character. That's how that works here. But I'll also note that for her and other fighters like her, this does not scale to Striking Strength compared to say Razor and other close range fighters in which it would. Regardless, the simple fact is that by how this site operates, the fact that they have a common energy source (Elemental Energy or Magic), allows this to scale to physical statistics and not be "Environmental Destruction". The fact is that with their energy source they are performing a feat that requires a set amount of energy to perform. Unless you want to say they are doing this with like Reality Warping (which they aren't) it doesn't matter if it's a fictional power source with fictional properties it still scales to statistics as these characters still created the storm clouds which still requires a certain amount of energy to perform, hence why it's something that is calced. That's literally how this works. So unless you want to make yet another CRT about this, there is nothing stopping this from scaling to the characters unless the Calc Group finds the calc illegitimate.
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Being good at climbing does not warrent this ability
Whether it is a valid feat or not is a completely different issue all together and not what I am debating (It isn't btw, but that's more so an issue with our god awful standards on cloud creation, rather than this feat.) Something being a legitamate feat and something scaling across all their abilities are two vastly different things.
It very much does need answering though. The fact that them performing this feat makes no sense if you take it at face value, is an issue, not even talking about the fact that we treat any kind of enviromental destruction with rather large scrutany. For that last sentence... I don't even know... what? I am not saying "it's a waste", I am saying "it's a waste if what you are saying was true". Think about it logically, if creating a storm was just as energy consuming (aka "effecient"), as creating lightning, then why not use the energy needed for the storm to strengthen the lightning instead!?
That is technichally false, but like I said, sh*tty cloud creation standards.
It shouldn't scale to them either. There is nothing backing that up, even if we assume the feat is usable for vision/magic powers.
It most certainly doesn't scale to anything "physical", aka striking strength. Also, last time I checked "having a common enery sorce" necessarily mean anything. Many characters have loads of attacks that use the same energy with different outputs and this is no different in Genshin. I mean, where would we be if the "secrtet technique" was just as strong as the "super ultimate secrtet technique" of a character, smh. All joking aside, I am not here to rant about our standards (even though I could do so all day long), it still technichally doesn't matter, since this is a type of summoning magic, which doesn't scale to the caster, the same way a summoned beast doesn't scale to the summoner. Also, magic in Genshin has already been shown to not properly scale with traditional energy (aka joules), since the portal Mona created, back when she met Scaramouche, would be around Solar-System level, if you actually calculated it, but hey ¯\(ツ)/¯
Although I am not claiming that it is RW, we don't actually know if it isn't, we simply assume it's not.
Urgh, how about the need of having to prove that all characters actually scale to this, since not all characters or visions are created equally? And no, headcanon of Amber being useful against Andrius does not count, since the only thing we do know is that the traveler would have gotten murdered if it wouldn't have been for Razor calming Andrius down.
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And by our standards it would in fact scale as I've already explained. You can hate the standards all you want, but until you try and change them, this feat will scale to the characters. You can dislike our standards all you want, but we aren't just gonna treat this verse differently just because.
No it really doesn't. It's only an issue for you here. Also, there is literally a recent thread regarding trying to make all storm feats ED and it was widely denied when energy sources are involved. Why create a storm for the lightning when they can generate it themselves. From what I can tell, it flat out increases the range of their attacks. Razor's attack for instance creates an AoE shockwave thanks to the lightning. All of this is trying to nitpick and avoid the fact that this was a feat that the characters can perform with their power. It's an attack they choose to make. They can easily uses other attacks of this level if they so wanted to, but they choose to do so in this way. Not all attacks are going to be 100% logical when the developers blatantly were just trying to make cool looking attacks and likely did not take into account that creating clouds and storms is an actual feat.
Change it and prove it. Otherwise, this is nothing but hot air.
Technically all characters are featless, however we scale low tier characters who don't really have any scaling to other low tier characters who have no scaling. This isn't the first verse to do this and won't be the last. We aren't going to give Genshin special treatment because you don't like it. We have two basically, non plot important characters who have these feats and as such we scale the general important cast to these feats. That's how we are handling Genshin here. We aren't saying this is "objective" by any means, in fact this is all subjective, however this is how we have chosen to handle these characters. You can disagree, but it's really up to everyone here to decide how they want to scale these guys.
Common Energy source is literally a reason to have it scale to physical statistics. Also, where is this stated to be "summoning magic"? It looks more like they used their power to create said storm clouds to me, but that's likely up to interpretation although I would probably guess most here would agree with them creating them with their power.. Regarding Mona's portal, how would that be SS level and not say, just Portal Creation? Also, it would be an outlier regardless if legit or not.
To quote from the thread
"With a Universal Energy Source where characters use the same types of energy in all their attacks: WHETHER IT BE PUNCHES, ELEMENTAL ATTACKS, STORMS AND SO ON, they will all scale to the physicals. PERIOD. As for verses where it is shown with evidence that their physicals vary greatly from their elemental attacks and storm attacks, then those elemental attacks and storms will be classified differently as a separate AP statistic. But under no circumstances are we going to just outright axe freezing feats and storm feats from the equation altogether, ever. We've already been doing this sort of thing for a long time now on a case-by-case basis, and this is how it will stand."
Nearly everyone in the thread agreed with this line of reasoning. But we have an entire thread revolving around this type of stuff so there is more than just this one quote.
Source: This thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/problem-with-freezing-feats-and-therefore-storm-feats-as-well.111455
You would need to prove it is RW. Without that, we cannot infer that it is RW whatsoever.
The fact that Razor is literally not anyone special among the cast. Unless you want to assume that Razor is thousands of times stronger than every character. This isn't the only verse that does this once again. This is in fact common that we find consistent feats among lower tiered characters and use that as a baseline for these characters. Razor's feat scales to lower tiered characters as it is consistent with Razor's feat and serves as a decent baseline for characters who aren't plot relevant or appear much. That's how we have chosen to scale these characters here. I believe that it is perfectly fine to scale everyone to these two feats, whether they be slightly weaker or stronger (Like Zhongli or Childe). So I have no issues with it. You and Sol can argue about this scaling all day long and maybe you can come to an agreement. I've given my thoughts on this matter.
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Wow... that thread was an awful read. I think I've got a headache. So much misinformation in such a small thread.
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Well, be the change you want to see otherwise your objections are pointless.
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Anyways, to actually tackle what you said.
Quotes:
"Starsnatch Cliff
The Anemo Archon is a bit too undisciplined for me. If I were a god, I would not have allowed my realm to look so unorganized and ragged. With enough bombs placed in proper positions, even huge cliffs like Starsnatch would crumble into dust in a second. With flatter terrain, Mondstadt would surely look much nicer.
But that unctuous Cavalry Captain rejected my proposal instantly. He even asked me to stay away from Starsnatch Cliff."
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"Whispering Woods
Yet another forest in Mondstadt. This Outrider named Amber seemed to know her way around this place. The explosive toy she carried around caught my attention. With some tweaks, I could turn it into something that could blow this forest and even the nearby mountains into smithereens easily.
My proposal seemed to scare her. But an explosive stuffed toy is indeed a brilliant idea.
I must try it out next time."
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"Brightcrown Canyon
I finally got rid of that stalker from the Knights of Favonius. This valley I found at the northeast coast of Cider Lake is still guarded by ancient mechanisms, but the soldiers responsible for holding the pass for the King of Gales were nowhere to be found now. All the winds of time had left behind were the unintelligent hilichurls and silent mechanical guards.
My attempt to control Ruin Guards with hilichurls failed as well. The guard split into pieces, and as for the fate of the hilichurl strapped onto it... I will spare you the gory details. Half of the ruins were also destroyed in the process."
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"Stormterror's Lair
Brightcrown Canyon leads to this huge ruin of an ancient city which was built by the cruel King of Gales, Decarabian. The city was built in a ring-shape. It seems that every resident of the city had been arranged their own spot between the inner and outer rings. Right in the center of the city was the tall tower where the King of Gales resided.
The ruins of the domain of this cruel king, who once tried to control his people's lives, are now utterly deserted.
I blew up a few arcades so people can climb up the tower more easily. Looks quite good to me. The ruin feels more ancient now."
Now that second one may sound really impressive, but remember, besides Dragonspine there really isn't any particularily large mountain in Mondstadt. That aside, basically all characters from Mondstadt, with the exception of... urgh... um... Varka, Dvalin, Andrius, Gnosis Venti, as well as possibly Jean and Diluc scale below Alice, who has been stated to be far more destructive than even Klee. Where do all her (potential) feats end up being? Low to mid tier 7 at most, assuming you give her a bunch of prep time. The best part is that these are the feats from a character not even in the game yet. So yeah, we do have feats. It's just most are in the 9-B to 8-C region, with some more rediculous ones (which mostly don't even scale to the strongest characters or at least not directly) being 7-C ish.
Ah yes, democracy. When you don't have to care about making sense for as long as you are in the majority
I fail to see how summoning a storm relates to Razors Aoe. This seems more like correlation, rather than causation.
I never tried to dispute the legitamazy of the feat. heck, I haven't even touched upon the fact that it's way too high compared to anything else we have seen in the verse, like how the Jade Palace explosion is only 7-C to 7-B -ish. This is about it making no sense to needlessly summon a storm, just to create lightning, which the character can do anyways.
Sooo... you are admitting it's an outlier/likely doesn't scale!?
When I have the time for it, although, after looking at that thread, I'd just get stonewalled with false claims, backed up by links proving me right (literally what happened in that thread, lmao)
How exactly does plot relevancy determine strength again? Lisa is literally one of the most accomplished characters in the entire verse, whith Paimon having her as no1 on her "people you shouldn't piss off"-list.
... what!? We have a bunch of feats, like Alice proposing to nuke Starsnatch Cliff, with Alice being one of the strongest characters in all of Mondstadt and even she would need to place several bombs to do so
Quotes:
"Starsnatch Cliff
The Anemo Archon is a bit too undisciplined for me. If I were a god, I would not have allowed my realm to look so unorganized and ragged. With enough bombs placed in proper positions, even huge cliffs like Starsnatch would crumble into dust in a second. With flatter terrain, Mondstadt would surely look much nicer.
But that unctuous Cavalry Captain rejected my proposal instantly. He even asked me to stay away from Starsnatch Cliff."
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"Whispering Woods
Yet another forest in Mondstadt. This Outrider named Amber seemed to know her way around this place. The explosive toy she carried around caught my attention. With some tweaks, I could turn it into something that could blow this forest and even the nearby mountains into smithereens easily.
My proposal seemed to scare her. But an explosive stuffed toy is indeed a brilliant idea.
I must try it out next time."
-
"Brightcrown Canyon
I finally got rid of that stalker from the Knights of Favonius. This valley I found at the northeast coast of Cider Lake is still guarded by ancient mechanisms, but the soldiers responsible for holding the pass for the King of Gales were nowhere to be found now. All the winds of time had left behind were the unintelligent hilichurls and silent mechanical guards.
My attempt to control Ruin Guards with hilichurls failed as well. The guard split into pieces, and as for the fate of the hilichurl strapped onto it... I will spare you the gory details. Half of the ruins were also destroyed in the process."
-
"Stormterror's Lair
Brightcrown Canyon leads to this huge ruin of an ancient city which was built by the cruel King of Gales, Decarabian. The city was built in a ring-shape. It seems that every resident of the city had been arranged their own spot between the inner and outer rings. Right in the center of the city was the tall tower where the King of Gales resided.
The ruins of the domain of this cruel king, who once tried to control his people's lives, are now utterly deserted.
I blew up a few arcades so people can climb up the tower more easily. Looks quite good to me. The ruin feels more ancient now."
Now that second one may sound really impressive, but remember, besides Dragonspine there really isn't any particularily large mountain in Mondstadt. That aside, basically all characters from Mondstadt, with the exception of... urgh... um... Varka, Dvalin, Andrius, Gnosis Venti, as well as possibly Jean and Diluc scale below Alice, who has been stated to be far more destructive than even Klee. Where do all her (potential) feats end up being? Low to mid tier 7 at most, assuming you give her a bunch of prep time. The best part is that these are the feats from a character not even in the game yet. So yeah, we do have feats. It's just most are in the 9-B to 8-C region, with some more rediculous ones (which mostly don't even scale to the strongest characters or at least not directly) being 7-C ish.
Um, what? I am pretty sure if there is nothing to scale them to it's a "possibly" at best, if not just blatantly an "unknown". This is not giving Genshin preferential treatment, but actually doing it how it's supposed to be done. If there is no basis for a character to scale, then they don't. Doing anything else is literally just inserting your headcanon and there is no way you can convince me that that's an actual standard we have.
Magic isn't vision related and visions have never been stated to boost physical stats in general.
In her talent description it says she calls down the lightning, which not only implies it's summoned, but "calling upon" or in this case "calling down" is actually synonymous to "summoning".
Why is Lisa's/Razor's storm not just non-scaling wheather manipulation? Why is that feat not an oulier, even though it is literally higher in tier than the Jade Chamber explosion and around, if not more impressive than ZhongLi's pillar throw? The best part is that Mona's feat is actuall physically plausible, while Razor's/Lisa's is only possible if you have some supernatural, physics breaking power, but I guess that gets me into ranting territories yet again.
Is this some kind of joke? If not, this is the worst kind of circle scaling I have ever seen.
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You do realize that this is not that high compared to those. The Jade Palace is 7-C to 7-B when this is only High 7-C. So it in fact is quite consistent with feats we see going by what you are saying. It doesn't really matter considering that they do. Once again, this is nitpicking when them calling down lightning really means nothing. You are the only one who thinks this matters when it simple is a cool looking attack. There is nothing more to say other than, that's just how it is.
My comment did not once imply that. I don't even know how you came to that conclusion. I also don't see how me saying that implied "Outlier" and "Does not scale".
Sure, that's exactly what will and had happened. You have not proven yourself to be right in this situation. So you are merely blowing hot air acting like you are the right one. But good luck regardless because that attitude will go over well.
When I say plot relevancy, I mean characters who overall do not have feats of their own and as thus tend to scale to the lower end stuff.
I mean from more lower tiered characters. Also, Alice saying that doesn't discredit Razor and Lisa's feat as that is a situation of Destructive Capabilities vs Attack Potency which are two different things.
Fighting Games, Pokemon, Digimon, Kirby, Mario, etc, etc tend to all have scaling like this. We have baselines to which a certain group of characters should likely scale to and scale them to that level. General statistics are nothing new on this site. This is no different than how everyone was going to scale within the Tier 9 and 8 range, yet we then found higher feats for everyone to scale to.
Or it just doesn't make sense to you and you disagree. You ain't always right either. If it makes sense to the others here, then it will be accepted. But yeah, continue to be a complete asshole because people don't agree with you.
Elemental Energy is what they are using for these attacks. I never said it boosted physical stats, however characters are able to channel it into their physical attacks. Razor being a prime example of this. Characters are blatantly shown strengthening their attacks with Elemental Energy.
Yeah, she summons lightning by creating a storm. This doesn't deny the feat whatsoever.
You can literally ask this for all storm feats. The fact is that unless they are stated to specifically manipulate the weather, we treat it as a feat. Also, Lisa and Razor's feats are two different feats vs 1 high tier feat. Plus the feat is still within the same ballpark of Tier 7 as said feat making it quite consistent with other feats we've seen. And once again, we have Attack Potency vs Destructive Capability. Once again, this can change if you change our standards on storm feats, but I doubt that'll go over well.
This was on me. I typed Razor twice when I meant to type both Razor and Lisa.
Regardless I am done here. I am not changing my thoughts nor are you changing yours. So it's pointless for me to continue this back and forth. Seeing as we are gonna start going in circles.
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Cease, that's a pointless argument here
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What this all boils down to is whether the feats would be considered valid as per this wiki's standards. If they are, then that's that. If someone thinks differently, as others have said, they can either propose a change to the wiki standards themselves, or agree to disagree. Power scaling can never be perfectly accurate simply because fiction is fiction, and inconsistencies with reality is kind of the point.
RatherClueless has a point in that maybe such a rating would be inconsistent with the power levels clearly-displayed by the verse, but then again, look at the Doom franchise. Doomguy can tank getting used as a human bullet by a massive cannon and punch giant stone structures out of the way, but is threatened by Zombies of all things in the opening of Doom 2016. You have Accelerator in ToAru being capable of halting the rotation of the Earth but most fights involving him don't feature the destruction of entire continents. It depends on what portrayal is most consistent, and that comes down to whether there are enough legitimate anti-feats to put otherwise superior feats into question.
If Razor and Lisa could suddenly destroy mountains with ease, then that'd call into question why things like Morax's Guyun feat and Barbatos' nation-flattening feat are considered so godlike. But on the contrary, they top out at a High 7-C attack being performed with some effort, compared to Barbatos flattening the once-mountainous regions around Mondstadt (which geologically would've been similar to Liyue) which should at least be about Island-level, which would be tens of thousands times stronger than even the peak of High 7-C.
Regardless of all that, the point is, does it fit with the wiki standards? If so, then the feat is valid and further debate is pointless until such time as said standards are changed.
RatherClueless has a point in that maybe such a rating would be inconsistent with the power levels clearly-displayed by the verse, but then again, look at the Doom franchise. Doomguy can tank getting used as a human bullet by a massive cannon and punch giant stone structures out of the way, but is threatened by Zombies of all things in the opening of Doom 2016. You have Accelerator in ToAru being capable of halting the rotation of the Earth but most fights involving him don't feature the destruction of entire continents. It depends on what portrayal is most consistent, and that comes down to whether there are enough legitimate anti-feats to put otherwise superior feats into question.
If Razor and Lisa could suddenly destroy mountains with ease, then that'd call into question why things like Morax's Guyun feat and Barbatos' nation-flattening feat are considered so godlike. But on the contrary, they top out at a High 7-C attack being performed with some effort, compared to Barbatos flattening the once-mountainous regions around Mondstadt (which geologically would've been similar to Liyue) which should at least be about Island-level, which would be tens of thousands times stronger than even the peak of High 7-C.
Regardless of all that, the point is, does it fit with the wiki standards? If so, then the feat is valid and further debate is pointless until such time as said standards are changed.
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Speaking of that calc. Has it been evaluated yet? If not, you might have to personally message some calc group members so that the changes can be made.
Based on your redo, they'd be High 7-C+.
Based on your redo, they'd be High 7-C+.
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I've messaged a couple of calc group members and posted the calc on the evaluations thread, but no replies so far. If you know any calc group members who'd wanna look at it, that'd be great. Though tbh it should already be valid seeing as all I did was copy-paste Drite's calc and plugged in a different value into the formula as per Mitch's instructions.
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Pretty sure it was clearly implied that said earthquakes were being caused by the Geovishaps considering the quest involved investigating the cause of said earthquakes, with only the Primo Geovishap causing the earthquake that was strong enough to open its mountain cave.
