Genshin 4A downgrade...

[Puppet43]

Archons > Hexenzirkel Witches.

The only conection between the 2, is that Gold, creation (Durin) was on bar with Venti and Amped Dvalin

 

[JohnHendrix212]

That... did not last long at all...

Anyway, count me in as agree. Every justification brought forth in that thread were incredibly flimsy, and just made to upgrade the verse for the heck of it with no solid foundations whatsoever.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

The only conection between the 2, is that Gold, creation (Durin) was on bar with Venti and Amped Dvalin

Yeah well, that's among the lines of what I've been saying if you read more of my posts. You should read your fellow Genshin supporters' strange attempts at reasoning why Archons are apparently 'logically' above witches, I'm not the one arguing for 4-A Archons here

Edit: Even though the main point of the thread is that Genshin doesn't deserve 4-A based on the witches' creation feats, I still believe it's a rather big problem that this upgrade is used to wank nearly all Genshin profiles by using fallacious reasoning and odd chain scaling, which should also be addressed, because this could set a precedent in the future

 

[Dog3352]

yeah bro OP is doing vote manipulation
you can get banned for this

I'm trying to follow the CRT before adding the votes, the votes added are the ones that made your vote clear.

Edit: I just updated the votes, I just added the ones that I noticed that I agreed or disagreed with, if anyone wants their vote to be added, they can just say if they agree, disagree or are neutral.

 

[DivinumAeterna]

I'm trying to follow the CRT before adding the votes, the stumps added are the ones that made your vote clear.

Edit: I just updated the votes, I just added the ones that I noticed that I agreed or disagreed with, if anyone wants their vote to be added, they can just say if they agree, disagree or are neutral.

missed mine

 

[Sahlwrld]

Edited

As i said before

I would only agree if the 4-A were removed from characters below Archon Level.
but I would disagree if the 4-A were removed from all characters.

 

[Breakdown]

Put me a

I'm trying to follow the CRT before adding the votes, the stumps added are the ones that made your vote clear.

Edit: I just updated the votes, I just added the ones that I noticed that I agreed or disagreed with, if anyone wants their vote to be added, they can just say if they agree, disagree or are neutral.

put me as disagree

 

[Voidnether]

Put me as agree since this supposed 4-A feat doesn't scale to anyone, not even the Hexenzirkels (Imo, it's just borderline headcanon at this point using justifications like: The mage is weaker than Hexenzirkel / Alice is weaker than Decarabian / Archons are God Tiers of the verse therefore they would scale massively to those that's inferior to them).

We should actually redefine what's Archon level and what's not, people can't seem to differentiate what's PIS and what is not (Cyno, Alhaitham and Shenhe being solid 4-A even someone like Arlecchino & Childe are definitely massive PIS and not to mention Traveler is 4-A due to defeating Shouki no Kami and not just 4-A because of the vision buff that he gets. You can see the profiles for the characters I mentioned earlier and you'll understand by then tbh). Or, it's just a bad scaling.. (Since nobody is trying to gatekeep it at the least for those that's rated below high god tiers).

 

[Weaver261]

Put me in agree too. The whole justification for archons to get 4-A doesn't make that much sense and it's mostly assumption and not real feat. Archon and other characters 4-A rating should be removed. I'm fine with hexenzirkel 4-A rating for now since we don't have much info on that. But that will eventually fall off since the more we get to see them, the more we will know they aren't that much (trust me :3)

 

[Woomica]

.
We should actually redefine what's Archon level and what's not, people can't seem to differentiate what's PIS and what is not (Cyno, Alhaitham and Shenhe being solid 4-A even someone like Arlecchino & Childe are definitely massive PIS and not to mention Traveler is 4-A due to defeating Shouki no Kami and not just 4-A because of the vision buff that he gets. You can see the profiles for the characters I mentioned earlier and you'll understand by then tbh). Or, it's just a bad scaling.. (Since nobody is trying to gatekeep it at the least for those that's rated below high god tiers).

Childe coming out damaged and scraped while being able to damage whale is not PiS in slightest and Arlecchino destroying Traveler as PiS is even more stupid like wtf
Cyno vs Wanderer on the other hand is complete pis considering latter didnt even care about the tournament

 

[DivinumAeterna]

and Arlecchino impregnating Traveler

buh???

 

[Puppet43]

Childe coming out damaged and scraped while being able to damage whale is not PiS in slightest and Arlecchino impregnating Traveler as PiS is even more stupid like wtf

My "Whale didnt get hurt in the cutscene and traveler weaken" arguments in my back

 

[Berento_Magnifico]

I agree with Garrixian and disagree with Dog

 

[Dog3352]

votes added.

Well, I edited the CRT for better understanding (and added a few more things).

I would like to ask someone to tag 2 moderators to check the topic (like @Qawsedf234).

 

[GarrixianXD]

Seems like the OP has been updated, I'll go through the updated information. Also, no need to list down the votes of every member; you only need to list down the votes from the evaluating staff members (administrators and thread moderators).

Talinkg about Simulnaka:

The world, before being “created”, was nothing more than a book written by M.

The world continues to exist only in the book (there is no evidence of it actually existing):

Basically: The world is a pocket dimension that only exists in a book.

Does this prove anything that the Imaginarium Threatre only exist inside the book? All it mentioned was that Andersdotte wrote a book and Durin made a wish when everyone was reading the book and all. It did not mention Simulanka or the Imaginarium Threatre at all. Also, the article you linked did not contain any of the dialogues you posted in this section. I don't see how any of this connects to your entire premise of this content revision thread that expresses the Imaginarium Threatre and Simulanka are fictional pocket realities only existing inside the book.

The world was “created” by a witches’ creation magic (which is probably the same magic used to create the Room/Imaginarium Theater and the Book/Imaginarium Theater), 3 witches “created” this world, using a magic that basically person “speaks and the thing is created”, there is also no statement/evidence that this magic uses elemental energy or any other type of energy (it does not use UES), something that is necessary to scale the creation of a pocket dimension to 4A:

Already addressed why the magic wielded by Hexenzirkel witches is part of the Genshin UES pool.

The world (Simulnaka) is declared, even within this reality/world/book, where its existence would be at the most real it could be, as “as real as the fiction of the real world (things like books and stories)" and “compared to a dream”:

Also addressed this.

Talking about the Room/Imaginarium Theater and the Book/Imaginarium Theater:

The book inside the Room/Imaginarium Theater is also the Imaginarium Theater, and when you interact with the book, the name “Imaginarium Theater” appears, which means that both are the same thing/existence.

If the book and the realm are truly the same thing, why does a copy of the book still appear in the Imaginarium Threatre? This rather goes against the premise that it is strictly the same thing.

The room/Imaginarium Theater is declared as something that exists “between/suspended the border of reality and fantasy”.



Which is very reminiscent of Simulanka, since it also kind of “exists between the border of reality and fantasy” in a way, since despite being a reality, even seen from within, it is still said to be "as real as fiction" and “compared to a dream”, which can be understood as “between reality and fantasy”.

This also goes against your premise. If the Imaginarium Threatre is a "fictional reality" inside the book, then why is it stated to be "suspected between the border of reality and fantasy"?

Also, it seems like up till this point, you haven't provided clear evidence to your claim that Simulanka and the Imaginarium Threatre are even connected to the book Andersdotter wrote.

Remembering, the "starry sky (the space with Stars)" that is in the update CRT only exists within the Book/Imaginarium Theather, and there is no real proof that the stars are real.

The Book/Imaginarium Theater is exactly the same as Sumilanka, it exists only within a book, it was created by witch creation magic, it seems to exist between reality and fantasy/fiction.
And the only difference between the Room/Imaginarium Theater and these two is the fact that you don't have to enter a book to go to the room, but, taking everything else into account, it's pretty obvious that the 3 are the same thing (has the same existence).

I already explained the comparison to the "fiction of the outside world". Also, when was the Imaginarium Threatre and Simulanka ever compared to a dream?

Speaking about the “magic = elemental energy” argument:

Regarding magic in general and the “term 'magic' = elemental energy” argument, this is definitely not true, as several things that have (or can be considered) the term “magic” in Genshin, such as spells, and the magic of other beings.

Clearly elemental energy is not being talked about here:



Magic of Kitsunes:

Magic of Shikigami and Shikifuda:

And more others.

As before, I already explained how the magic explicitly wielded by Hexenzirkel is indeed elemental power and belong to the Genshin UES pool. Also, it's better for you to provide actual indexing for this section.

The fact that elemental energy is something fundamental does not mean that it is necessarily used in everything, that is not even an argument (literally several Teyvat spells do not use elemental energy, in addition to things like alchemy, Adeptus Arts, among many others);

Do you have proof towards this claim?

You didn't show any evidence of any kind of energy and especially elemental energy being used in creation (which is necessary for the creation of the book's world to scale into something);
The term "magic" extends to several things (there are several spells), trying to limit Theo term "magic" as if it only meant elemental energy doesn't prove anything because of that;
There is also an equivalence where it says that "the world (Simulanka) is as real as what would be fiction in the real world (like books)" + an equivalence that "the world (Simulanka) is as real as a dream" + the fact of existing only in the book and not demonstrating that it actually exists (like a game or story that is only a "reality" if you enter the "game"/"story", but that from the outside is not a reality, like SAO for example)

I actually did prove that the witches of Hexenzirkel's magic falls into Genshin's UES. We can go through this over and over indefinite times until you directly address how the witches of Hexenzirkel's magic isn't part of Genshin's pool of UES.

As to your claim of Simulanka being compared to books and all therefore has to be strictly a story, there's rather 2 definitions towards the term "fiction".

I already said why that realities cannot have fictional elements, hence the first definition is disqualified. That leaves the section definition, which closely matches my premise that "fiction of the real world" corresponds to the False Sky Theory. When they compared "the truth of this world" and "the fiction of the outside world", it was referring to the hoaxes and buried secrets of Teyvat, or even Teyvat itself is a false world interpreted in the False Sky Theory. When it said that the outside world (Teyvat) could've been just a dream, it closely insinuates to the False Sky Theory that all of Teyvat is fake like a dream and especially recalling to the Samsara case during the Archon quests; it didn't compare the world of Simulanka to a dream, but rather Teyvat itself. Those statements were rather comparing the properties of Simulanka and Teyvat, that the nature of those worlds are rather similar.

This scan is no different from Mona's, it says literally nothing about magic, witches' magic or proves that "term 'magic' in general = elemental energy" (nor is there any way to prove such a thing in any way).

She uses magic that is elemental energy, nothing about her uses witch magic like creation magic or spells, she uses her vision in basically everything she does, this literally proves nothing about witch magic, she is basically a common vision user, even though she is a mage, with the difference that she mixes her knowledge with astrology + her vision to do something other than "pure elemental manipulation", but that is not even called some kind of magic, witch/wizard magic or something like that.

She was explicitly mentioned to be a mage of Hexenzirkel. If she wasn't using witchcraft magic, what else would she be using?

Literally Simulanka's existence is said to be "as real as real world fiction (like stories/books)" and has its existence "compared to a dream", and the world only exists within the book.
I think this is proof of the enough, even more so when the world is declared "as real as fiction" and "compared to a dream" within the world/reality/book itself, which is the place where this world would be the most real it could be (and yet thus it is declared "as real as fiction" and "compared to a dream").

I have addressed this.

The point is that everything points out that the room/Imaginarium Theater, Simulnaka and the book/Imaginarium Theatsr are all exactly the same thing (in addition to all apparently being created by the same type of magic), with the room/Imaginarium Theater being literally the unique in that it is not necessary to enter a book to get there, but still being possibly something that does not really exist, like the interior of the book/imaginarium Teatro and Simulnaka.

Begs to my previous question how the Imaginarium Threatre and Simulanka are even connected to the book written by Andersdotter.

Reasons:
Simulnaka's existence is "as real as fiction" and "compared to a dream";

Addressed.

The room/imaginarium Theater is quickly theorized by the Traveler as "another world", just as Simulnaka is "another world" (which does not actually exist), besides the image in the window making it very obvious that we are no longer in Mondstadt;

Yeah, another world. Not seeing how this is a relevant reason.

All 3 are impossible to enter (if you don't enter the room/imaginarium theater, you don't enter the book/imaginarium theater), unless the person is invited or pulled;

A form of pocket reality manipulation perhaps; the Hexenzirkel witches has the authority to grant access and seal the dimension from other worlds. Nothing to do with the premise that it is false.

All 3 are created by the same magic (it is said by Wolfy that witches have creation magic);
The room/Imaginarium Theater is described as "real fantasy" and "standing between reality and fiction", descriptions that are reminiscent of the Sumilnaka, with the Sumilnaka being something that doesn't really exist ("as real as fiction" "compared to a dream" and being a world that only exists within the book), but, within the world, it is something like a reality (a reality that even from within, still has its existence compared to fiction and a dream), basically being something that when it comes to "status of existence", is something that lies between reality and fantasy/fiction, a reality that does not truly exist, that even from within reality (from the point of view of this reality), this reality is as real as fiction or a dream.

Addressed already.

No one is even talking about "fictional aspects of the world", but rather literally the fiction that exists in the real world (books/stories), the statement itself talks about "fiction from the outside world", and not about the world itself/ " fictional aspects" of the world, clearly mentioning things like stories. No one is saying that there is a "fictional world" that is an aspect of the real world of Genshin, but rather what is literally fiction (stories/books). I have my doubts if you are able to interpret what is written there, no one is saying that there is a place in the real world of Genshin that is literally fictional, the world is being compared to what is fiction for the real world of Genshin (like stories, and even in a certain way a comparison with dreams).

Addressed already. Also to add onto it, books and stories aren't "fiction" of the real world, because the real world is not fictional. Unless you're talking about the proses itself, but it would rather utilise the word "from", instead of using "of" which would make it far more ambiguous if they really were talking about copies of books and forms of literature from Teyvat. But even if it was the latter, they'll be referring to the literature itself instead which has nothing unreal towards it.

I didn't say it's a literal dream, in fact, I know very well that it isn't, since I read Samulnika's entire mission, they are inside a book, as I've said several times.
And the point of the comparison with a dream is not that it is literally a dream, but that it is "as real as one", the question itself being about how real the Samulnika is, to which it is answered as "it is as real as what is fiction in the real world" and "as real as a dream".

You were saying that Simulanka is as real as the "fiction" of the real world and now you're claiminig that it as as real as dreams itself. Tho, I already shown that it was rather referring to Teyvat itself being an entire "dream". Though, even if you do create a postulation that Simulanka is correspondent to that of a dream, Traveller and Paimon would've most likely noticed, and the term "real fantasy" goes against it, since the "real fantasy" part infers to Simulanka being a real dimension that takes form of fantasy thoughts of people or settings from fantasy novels.

The scans are the texts, they look like this:

You merely linked articles of a wiki. Gotta do better than that.

 

[JohnHendrix212]

Just make it "possibly 4-A with Pocket Reality Creation" for the character who performed the feat.

I just thoroughly disagree with it scaling to stats when everything else presented in the lore so far are wildly inconsistent with the feat. And it's not as though the one who supposedly performed the feat is actively connected with the ones majorly benefiting from this feat either. So it's just scaling via vague relations to vague relations to vague interactions.

Overall, the justifications for the scaling of this feat is very flimsy and unconvincing for me. This is a huge jump, so I'd thought a lot more scrutiny should be applied here.

 

[TrueBK98]

While I do think the feat is valid to scale to stats, the scaling definitely needs to be revised. Alhaitham and Cyno being 4-A is absolutely wild. Got blocked once and was forced to falls back by the Traveler is not "Briefly traded blows". Fighting with an unserious Wanderer, whose true purpose was just to keeps an eye on things, just isn't enough to considers a 4-A rating. Scaling Barbatos to Alice also needs more concrete evidence, Albedo still called her a near-omnipotent sorceress even with the existences of Durin, Gold and the Anemo Archon.

 

[Dog3352]

Does this prove anything that the Imaginarium Threatre only exist inside the book? All it mentioned was that Andersdotte wrote a book and Durin made a wish when everyone was reading the book and all. It did not mention Simulanka or the Imaginarium Threatre at all. Also, the article you linked did not contain any of the dialogues you posted in this section. I don't see how any of this connects to your entire premise of this content revision thread that expresses the Imaginarium Threatre and Simulanka are fictional pocket realities only existing inside the book.

Have you even read the quest? Or at least the scan? It is said that they "are people from a distant world (real world)" who "were holding the fairy tale written by M" when "they were selected to save the world", she makes it obvious that they were pulled into the book, Traveler and Paimon end up in Simulanka literally right after interacting with the book.
There is no evidence that the Simulnaka exists outside the book, and as I have already proven, it clearly exists within the book.

Already addressed why the magic wielded by Hexenzirkel witches is part of the Genshin UES pool.

Something that I have already refuted, since your argument is that "the term 'magic' in general = elementary energy", something that I have already argued to the contrary, and I still have some more evidence.

Nilou, who is unable to use elemental energy or her vision, calls the creation magic she uses "magic", making it clear once again that creation magic has nothing to do with elemental energy, creation magic being it is a magic that was used by a character who was unable to use elemental energy or her vision, in addition to her also saying that "the magic is in the words", showing once again that the magic of creation has nothing to do with elemental energy.

Nilou: Unfortunately, I don't know how to use the "magic" of this world. I've tried using my Vision, but it doesn't seem to work here...

Nilou: The moment I used magic, I sensed something... strange down there. I have a feeling it's connected to why the Tavern had to close down.

Nilou: Well... All I did was say my wishes for her out loud. Maybe the magic is in the words, themselves, just like the book said!

Also addressed this.

In the CRT this scan was completely misinterpreted, as I already explained, the CRT approaches the scan in a totally different way from what the scan says.
And I will refute your argument used later in your comment soon in this same comment of mine, and I had already refuted your argument in a previous comment.

If the book and the realm are truly the same thing, why does a copy of the book still appear in the Imaginarium Threatre? This rather goes against the premise that it is strictly the same thing.

In addition to this not being an argument, there is the fact that Simulnaka was a temporary event, it technically no longer exists in Genshin history, so there are no "two of the same thing", and even if it did, that doesn't go against no "proposal", since there is nothing that says that the book's proposal is to be the only book that has a type of reality inside, besides me saying that both are the same thing in the sense that the 3 are the same type of " fictional reality" and created by the same type of magic.

This also goes against your premise. If the Imaginarium Threatre is a "fictional reality" inside the book, then why is it stated to be "suspected between the border of reality and fantasy"?

Also, it seems like up till this point, you haven't provided clear evidence to your claim that Simulanka and the Imaginarium Threatre are even connected to the book Andersdotter wrote.

I already explained this, are you even reading it? It is "between the border of reality and fiction" due to its existential nature, due to being something that is literally fiction to the real world (fantasy), and within the book being a "reality" (which does not actually exist, as which even within the reality of the book, is described as "as real as fiction" and "compared to a dream).

I already explained this in the OP too, both have connections due to having several similarities, in addition to the book contained in the room and the room itself being called "Imaginarium Theater, making it clear that both are the same thing:
They are created by witches' creation magic;
Worlds/realities exist only within a book (specifically for Book/Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka);
Shown in the scan exists only within the book, and the room is something that only appears to someone who is invited, it is another world and is described as "being between reality and fantasy" (a description that I have already explained the meaning of several times);
Book and the room both being "Imaginarium Theather", it is naturally thought that they are both the same thing, so what is proven about the book also counts for the room.

I already explained the comparison to the "fiction of the outside world". Also, when was the Imaginarium Threatre and Simulanka ever compared to a dream?

You haven't proven anything, you've just assumed that "real world fiction" means a "fictional aspect" that exists in the world of Genshin itself with nothing to support such a thing, when the statement is obviously talking about literal fiction, like stories and books, you You should at least read the scans, the comparison between dreams and fiction is in the explanation itself.

This scan was clearly misinterpreted.

The main point of the error of interpretation is that the question is: "Which is more real, the fiction of the outside world, or the truth of this world?".

Basically, the question is whether the world created by Alice is more or less real than the fiction of the real world, which is answered by saying that the fiction of the real world and the world created by Alice are equally real, leaving even more obvious that the world created by Alice does not exist physically (it does not exist in reality), and it is as real as the fiction of the real world, which makes sense, since it does not exist in a literal/physical sense.

There is also what the narrator uses to explain this, he says: "Hear, hear. Who can be sure that the outside world isn't just a dream? And that when the dreamer wakes up, they won't just find themselves inside a novel?".

Basically, the narrator uses the possibility of the "real world" being just a dream as a justification for saying that the Simulanka/world/book is "as real as the fictional world", not just claiming that the world/Simulanka is "as as real as fiction", as well as comparing it to a dream.

I actually did prove that the witches of Hexenzirkel's magic falls into Genshin's UES. We can go through this over and over indefinite times until you directly address how the witches of Hexenzirkel's magic isn't part of Genshin's pool of UES.

As to your claim of Simulanka being compared to books and all therefore has to be strictly a story, there's rather 2 definitions towards the term "fiction".

I already said why that realities cannot have fictional elements, hence the first definition is disqualified. That leaves the section definition, which closely matches my premise that "fiction of the real world" corresponds to the False Sky Theory. When they compared "the truth of this world" and "the fiction of the outside world", it was referring to the hoaxes and buried secrets of Teyvat, or even Teyvat itself is a false world interpreted in the False Sky Theory. When it said that the outside world (Teyvat) could've been just a dream, it closely insinuates to the False Sky Theory that all of Teyvat is fake like a dream and especially recalling to the Samsara case during the Archon quests; it didn't compare the world of Simulanka to a dream, but rather Teyvat itself. Those statements were rather comparing the properties of Simulanka and Teyvat, that the nature of those worlds are rather similar.

There is no proof of UES for the witches' creation magic, and I have already proven the opposite, the only proof is "the term 'magic' in general = elemental energy", which I have already proven the opposite of, and I still managed to prove that it is not there is use of elemental energy (UES) in witches' creation magic with direct statements about creation magic.

Lmao. This is hilarious. Everyone here knows very well what fiction is, they are things that don't really exist, like stories.

The statement says "THE fiction OF THE real world", not "the fiction IN real world", they are two completely different things, one (THE fiction OF THE real world) is CLEARLY talking about fictional things in the real world, literally real world fiction (stories, books, stories, etc), while the other (the fiction IN the real world) would be talking about something like your "personal interpretation", something that "REALLY EXISTS"/"EXISTS in the real world" and is called fiction/that doesn't exists/false (like the "false" sky).
Reasons: The word "In" meaning something that exists/is there (indication of location, such as "in shopping", indicating the location OF THE shopping), while "the" is an adjective used to mention something directly/literally this something (like "the shopping", which would be a way of mentioning the shopping mall), "of" is used to indicate origin/belonging (which in a way is also location), taking into account the meaning of "the" and "of", "of the" would be to indicate something directly (the) and where is that "something" (of), then "THE fiction OF THE real world" would serve to indicate "THE fiction ("the", direct indication that he is literally talking about fiction, since the word "the" serves to directly/literally mention what is being cited after the word "the") OF THE real world ("of", mention of origin/location + "the", direct/literal mention of the thing mentioned in the word that comes after "the", which makes it clear that "of the" talks about the location of the literal fiction, which is the real world, "literal fiction" as stories)", your interpretation would be correct if the statement said "the fiction IN real world" instead instead of "THE fiction OF THE real world".
You making connections between things that CLEARLY have no connection (false sky ≠ declaration of "as real as fiction).

She was explicitly mentioned to be a mage of Hexenzirkel. If she wasn't using witchcraft magic, what else would she be using?

Your vision? Like anyone? Lmao, wizards/witches don't just use magic, but also pure elemental energy/just vision like everyone else, Lisa, Mona and Signora only use vision/elemental energy and it's never referred to as "magic" or anything like that.

I have addressed this.

And I refuted this approach in several comments, including this one.

Begs to my previous question how the Imaginarium Threatre and Simulanka are even connected to the book written by Andersdotter.

Also answered in the OP and in several other comments, including this one.

Addressed.

As I said previously, I have already refuted it in the OP and in several comments.

Yeah, another world. Not seeing how this is a relevant reason.

Simulnaka is also described as another world, this is a connection that holds true for the IT (book).

A form of pocket reality manipulation perhaps; the Hexenzirkel witches has the authority to grant access and seal the dimension from other worlds. Nothing to do with the premise that it is false.

This is just a connection between the 3 worlds.

Addressed already.

And refuted by me.

Addressed already. Also to add onto it, books and stories aren't "fiction" of the real world, because the real world is not fictional. Unless you're talking about the proses itself, but it would rather utilise the word "from", instead of using "of" which would make it far more ambiguous if they really were talking about copies of books and forms of literature from Teyvat. But even if it was the latter, they'll be referring to the literature itself instead which has nothing unreal towards it.

Already refuted, and "from" indicates a point in space where the movement, action or journey begins (it literally makes no sense at all for the word "from" to indicate the fiction that exists in the real world), while "the" is a mention literal/direct of something (the "something" that is mentioned literally/directly is what comes after the word, in this case, fiction), "the fiction from real world" would be a way of saying "where fiction from the real world begins" (taking into account what is the "from" for, which wouldn't do the slightest sense), while "the" is a mention direct/literal of something, "the fiction of the real world" (the fiction that exists in the world, which would be in this case, things like books and stories) would be talking about literally fiction, with the "the" is only used to directly mention the thing (literal fiction in this case).

You were saying that Simulanka is as real as the "fiction" of the real world and now you're claiminig that it as as real as dreams itself. Tho, I already shown that it was rather referring to Teyvat itself being an entire "dream". Though, even if you do create a postulation that Simulanka is correspondent to that of a dream, Traveller and Paimon would've most likely noticed, and the term "real fantasy" goes against it, since the "real fantasy" part infers to Simulanka being a real dimension that takes form of fantasy thoughts of people or settings from fantasy novels.

Both fiction and dreams are "not real" things (that do not exist), so being compared/equated with both is not a contradiction.

I've talked about this (refuted it) before, both in this comment and others.

You merely linked articles of a wiki. Gotta do better than that.

There is nothing from the wiki, just written things that are in the lore itself, I read the mission on the wiki, and I took the lines from the mission and put them in the CRT.

 

[Weaver261]

Does this prove anything that the Imaginarium Threatre only exist inside the book?

Eh isn't this enough to prove IT being inside the book? Also the book exists inside the lobby, not in the IT itself.

Wolfy: I enjoy watching your performances, so it's well worth it as far as I'm concerned! Hmm, I wonder how many blank pages are left in this book...
Wolfy: Ah, but not to worry. Even if we run out of space, new blank pages will be added very soon!
Wolfy: I do look forward to the day when all empty pages are filled with stories...

Wolfy: Put on a spectacular show for your audience, and you will receive a key that opens the door to the World Within the Painting...
Paimon: Whoa, hold up! First storybooks, now a world inside a painting? This place is making less and less sense all the time...

 

[GarrixianXD]

Eh isn't this enough to prove IT being inside the book? Also the book exists inside the lobby, not in the IT itself.

Provide the source of this. I did not find that anywhere on the OP or the indexed information on it.

 

[Dog3352]

Eh isn't this enough to prove IT being inside the book? Also the book exists inside the lobby, not in the IT itself.

Yes, this definitely serves as definitive proof, although I didn't know where it was, I'll look for it.

The fact that the starry space shown in this scan exists only within the book + its scan are more than enough to show that the "starry space", like Simulanka, is just a world/reality that only exists within the book (does not truly exist), and taking into account that both use creation magic to be created, neither truly exists even from within this reality (being that it is "as real as fiction" and "compared to a dream") .

 

[Weaver261]

Provide the source of this. I did not find that anywhere on the OP or the indexed information on it.

This quest

 

[Furina003]

This quest

Aren't pocket dimensions like that? So what's the problem if IT is in a book?

 

[GarrixianXD]

This quest

Seems like "The World Within the Painting" is rather a title. Could be saying that you enter a world with an appearance that represents the painting. However, even with it aside, this funnily enough also goes against the premise it is a fictional world inside the book and its direct connection to the book, and the claim that the Imaginarium Threatre and the book are the same thing.

 

[Weaver261]

Seems like "The World Within the Painting" is rather a title. Could be saying that you enter a world with an appearance that represents the painting. However, even with it aside, this funnily enough also goes against the premise it is a fictional world inside the book and its direct connection to the book, and the claim that the Imaginarium Threatre and the book are the same thing.

My main point isn't "World within the painting". Above lines stated how player gameplay in IT stages filled the IT book. Everything that happened in IT book is just inside a book written as text. The same goes the painting stuffs too.

 

[Dog3352]

Seems like "The World Within the Painting" is rather a title.

This is mentioned when act 6 (or higher of the book ends, it has nothing to do with the other statement shown by @Furina003, which is said after beating a boss.

Could be saying that you enter a world with an appearance that represents the painting.

This is literal, as Paimon herself speaks of "first world in books (which she actually has, which indicates that she is speaking for real), now in paintings", in addition to Woofy saying that "it releases keys to enter the World Within of Painting", making it even more obvious that this is literal.

However, even with it aside, this funnily enough also goes against the premise it is a fictional world inside the book and its direct connection to the book, and the claim that the Imaginarium Threatre and the book are the same thing.

It definitely does not go against this "premise", this proves it even more, as it declares that "worlds" exist only within the book, and also within paintings.

And you're misinterpreting the "the book and the room are the same thing" thing, I'm not talking about them both being literally the same reality, but in the sense that they are both created by the same magic (and therefore, they are both "existences " equals/the same thing, not literally the same reality).
The game itself demonstrates that the room (Theather Lobby) and the Imaginarium Theather (inside the book, this image appears when entering a book or painting, which makes it clear that the inside of a book is the Imaginarium Theather) are different things, where the room is a place where things like books and paintings are kept, and the books and paintings are what lead to the "Imaginarium Theather" (evidenced by the game's own explanation of the Imaginarium Theather, by Paimon literally stating that the worlds are inside books and paintings, and Woody confirm this).

 

[Tyri456]

Just make it "possibly 4-A with Pocket Reality Creation" for the character who performed the feat..

How can that be a “possibly” when it’s an established fact they created that? lol smh

 

[GrandAdmiralCosmicBrains]

I'm gonna vote agree, the argument for this makes far more sense than anything that I've seen presented against it.

 

[Da3ggman]

Count me as agree; feels like the people for 4-A are trying to jump through a lot of hoops to say the fictional thing isn't fictional, when it makes much more sense that it just....is lol.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Not sure how a witch's creation magic is different from elemental energy (or fundamental primitive energy in general; Genshin's UES) going by how the evidence was presented here. It doesn't seem to be an actual counter to it, other than showing techniques saying magic is used blah blah blah this and that; it didn't say it had no correlation to elemental energy. Nilou cannot use her vision in the Imaginarium Threatre because it was said that she doesn't know magic and can't use it. It is a different case with Wanderer since he can use his vision in the Imagarium Threatre because he wields a catalyst and therefore knows magic. That detail is more of a knowledge on magic type of thing to satisfy the property of the world, doesn't really debunk how it isn't connected to the UES.

The room the book was in was said to be created with Witch Creation magic, which isn't part of the real world. But eh, we saw it on a random table in Mondstadt anyway. However, it begs the question that there are 2 copies of the book which you can access the world. And when you access the Imagarium Threatre from either book that is in Monsdadt or the room, you end up in the same Imagarium Threatre. Of course, that brings an issue towards the claim that the world is something inside a book, because if it is strictly inside a book then it can only be embedded upon one copy and can only be accessed through one copy. It creates suspicion and makes your line of reasoning unstable; the world cannot exist in 2 places at once. However, with the book acting as a portal to access the world would be a better interpretation.

My main point isn't "World within the painting". Above lines stated how player gameplay in IT stages filled the IT book. Everything that happened in IT book is just inside a book written as text. The same goes the painting stuffs too.

Yeah, sure, whatever you do in the realm can be inscribed and written into the book. Or Wolfy himself can just write stories based on your adventures in the Imagarium Theatre. I can see the link between the realm and the book now, but saying that the realm is a "fictional world" inside the book based on that alone is rather a slippery slope, especially since there are arguments that go against the belief, such that the world able to be accessed through 2 copies as well as said to be "A World Within the Patining", not a "World Within the Book".

This is literal, as Paimon herself speaks of "first world in books (which she actually has, which indicates that she is speaking for real), now in paintings", in addition to Woofy saying that "it releases keys to enter the World Within of Painting", making it even more obvious that this is literal.

When did Paimon say something like "first world in books"? And if it is literal then why was the term "World Within of Painting" capitalised? It's obviously meant to be a title for the Imagarium Threatre.

It definitely does not go against this "premise", this proves it even more, as it declares that "worlds" exist only within the book, and also within paintings.

Like I said before. If it is strictly a dimension embedded within the book, then it can only exist in that copy because it is inside of it. The world cannot exist at multiple objects at once unless you argue for parallel dimensions which isn't the case, or you claim that the books are painting are portals to it instead.

The game itself demonstrates that the room (Theather Lobby) and the Imaginarium Theather are different things

Yeah, I mistook the lobby and the Imaginarium Theather together. I'll admit that.

 

[Confluctor]

Agree with OP, the opposing arguments don't hold up imo.

 

[Weaver261]

The room the book was in was said to be created with Witch Creation magic, which isn't part of the real world. But eh, we saw it on a random table in Mondstadt anyway. However, it begs the question that there are 2 copies of the book which you can access the world. And when you access the Imagarium Threatre from either book that is in Monsdadt or the room, you end up in the same Imagarium Threatre. Of course, that brings an issue towards the claim that the world is something inside a book, because if it is strictly inside a book then it can only be embedded upon one copy and can only be accessed through one copy. It creates suspicion and makes your line of reasoning unstable; the world cannot exist in 2 places at once.

Sorry if I was being too ignorant here but where does this 2 copies of book argument come from? I don't actively play genshin so, I might have missed that. As far as I know, you can access the IT in the IT lobby's table.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Sorry if I was being too ignorant here but where does this 2 copies of book argument come from? I don't actively play genshin so, I might have missed that. As far as I know, you can access the IT in the IT lobby's table.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

 

[Weaver261]

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

www.youtube.com

Ehhhhh.......Isn't this simulanka? I'm asking about Imaginarium Theater tho.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Ehhhhh.......Isn't this simulanka? I'm asking about Imaginarium Theater tho.

Same thing, Weaver.

 

[Weaver261]

Same thing, Weaver.

I don't think they are the same world tho. It's pretty clear. Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka are different creations. Just because they are created using the same magic, doesn't mean they are the same world. If they are different worlds and have only one book to enter it, it raises the possibility of being inside the book. Also world within the painting is both the title and the literal meaning

Wolfy: Put on a spectacular show for your audience, and you will receive a key that opens the door to the World Within the Painting...
Paimon: Whoa, hold up! First storybooks, now a world inside a painting? This place is making less and less sense all the time...

Paimon said "First storybooks" referring the eariler stages of Theater inside the book on the table. And a world inside a painting referring to later stages. Both are just not real.

The lobby description is stated as a room between fantasy and reality. Reality being the Teyvat and fantasy being the Theater.

A mysterious room suspended between fantasy and reality, before the tale's beginning and after its end.
A certain witch used magic to build this place, granting a different sort of life to things that were once mere fantastical stories.

 

[GarrixianXD]

I don't think they are the same world tho. It's pretty clear. Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka are different creations. Just because they are created using the same magic, doesn't mean they are the same world. If they are different worlds and have only one book to enter it, it raises the possibility of being inside the book. Also world within the painting is both the title and the literal meaning

Oh, nvm then. I had the two mixed up, my apologies on that.

Paimon said "First storybooks" referring the eariler stages of Theater inside the book on the table. And a world inside a painting referring to later stages. Both are just not real.

This still hints at multi-location stuff, saying that the Imaignary Threatre is in both the book and painting. Saying that it is a "World Within a Painting" and then you can access it through a book. And the article did not mention that the Imaginary Threatre is directly inside the storybook.

The lobby description is stated as a room between fantasy and reality. Reality being the Teyvat and fantasy being the Theater.

Reality and fantasy acts as placeholder names. Judging by the nature of Teyvat itself, it's even hard to deduce it as an actual reality in a sense that the world of Teyvat is entirely real. Fantasy refers to the actual fictional story written in the storybook, or a placeholder name for that actual fictional world of the storybook; can't you see that directly goes against that the Imaginarium Threatre is a fictional universe of the storybook?

 

[Furina003]

I don't think they are the same world tho. It's pretty clear. Imaginarium Theater and Simulanka are different creations. Just because they are created using the same magic, doesn't mean they are the same world. If they are different worlds and have only one book to enter it, it raises the possibility of being inside the book. Also world within the painting is both the title and the literal meaning

Paimon said "First storybooks" referring the eariler stages of Theater inside the book on the table. And a world inside a painting referring to later stages. Both are just not real.

The lobby description is stated as a room between fantasy and reality. Reality being the Teyvat and fantasy being the Theater.

A mysterious room suspended between fantasy and reality, before the tale's beginning and after its end.
A certain witch used magic to build this place, granting a different sort of life to things that were once mere fantastical stories.

you should understand this,
they were originally fantasy stories, changed to use something else using magic.

something other than a fantasy story is the reality of fantasy.

So Wolfy said that Imaginarium Theater was a real fantasy. This world is a fantasy world but real, not just a story

 

[Weaver261]

Reality and fantasy acts as placeholder names. Judging by the nature of Teyvat itself, it's even hard to deduce it as an actual reality in a sense that the world of Teyvat is entirely real. Fantasy refers to the actual fictional story written in the storybook; can't you see that directly goes against that the Imaginarium Threatre is a fictional universe of the storybook?

Teyvat is real down to the core. The only that is not real in Teyvat is the sky which is actually a barrier set up by Primordial One. The barrier was made to protect Teyvat from the universe. Fantasy means the theatrical performance of player gameplay. They are written inside the book. There's no proof of the stages inside the gameplay are actual reality.

you should understand this,
they were originally fantasy stories, changed to use something else using magic.

something other than a fantasy story is the reality of fantasy.

So Wolfy said that Imaginarium Theater was a real fantasy. This world is a fantasy world but real, not just a story

Wolfy clearly stated the magic of imagination is just make believe. The toy medals and gold are entirely different things and they will never be the same but if they believe both have the same value, it has the same value. It's all just imitating reality and not real. The map description I have provided above also stated how the room is the in-between of fantasy and reality.

Paimon: Aaanyway... Are you sure you're okay with just Toy Medals? What can they be worth if they're just toys?
Wolfy: As long as you believe, even Toy Medals can be more valuable than gold. That is the magic of imagination. Madame Mage told me that. I can't say I entirely understand what she meant, but...

Wolfy statement about "True Fantasy" doesn't really mean anything here. Just enhancing the fact that it's a real and true fantasy. If it's just reality, it will say so. But postfix word fantasy exist. So, it should mean "it's a fantasy no doubt".

 

[Furina003]

Paimon said "First storybooks" referring the eariler stages of Theater inside the book on the table. And a world inside a painting referring to later stages. Both are just not real.

I don't know why you say this isn't real just based on this statement.

what we are discussing is the feat of creating a pocket dimension that has a starry sky.

The world in the book or in the painting meets the criteria for a pocket dimension, because the pocket dimension is a space that is smaller and separate from the original world.

Pocket realities, in this case, refers to realms that are spatially separate from other realms (including universes) and either are of less than universal size on the inside or appear as less than universe sized objects when observed from the outside.