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Genjutsu vs Kyoka suigetsu which one is better and which one would u rather have
- Thread starter Kidkinsey
- Start date
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no need to get into it as it already been debunked .
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whatever you say..
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KS affecting the soul is irrelevant. Conciousness resides across both planes, showing illusions to Souls is extremely pointless when arguing Resistance/Immunity to Illusion Creation.
Even then, Dojutsu is retained, even as souls, so, yes, KS vs Sharingan Resistance to Illusions is a losing battle for KS. But that's not the point of this thread.
Even then, Dojutsu is retained, even as souls, so, yes, KS vs Sharingan Resistance to Illusions is a losing battle for KS. But that's not the point of this thread.
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Depends on the genjutsu
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i am not going to get in NLF argument
cuz anyone with good resistance to mind minip/genjutsu can break KS/all genjutsu
KS can't be broken cuz no one in bleach has shown resistance to mind minip/genjutsu
but genjutsu can be broken cuz chakra allows them resist mind minip/genjutsu
it doesnt make genjutsu weaker just because ninja can perceive genjutsu and has ability broke to it
cuz anyone with good resistance to mind minip/genjutsu can break KS/all genjutsu
KS can't be broken cuz no one in bleach has shown resistance to mind minip/genjutsu
but genjutsu can be broken cuz chakra allows them resist mind minip/genjutsu
it doesnt make genjutsu weaker just because ninja can perceive genjutsu and has ability broke to it
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genjutsu does everything ks can and more consistently, its been shown to have a better mental inducement , mind manipulation. ks allows aizen to alter the senses. to where the victims misidentify this is more so (indirect) control rather then (direct) control. which is more authoritative ocular gen can directly control the conscious mind, as well as the subconscious mind. which is more impressive proving the genjutsu is more potent then ks.
consistently ocular gen has been shown to directly control the conscious mind and even the subconscious
thought
perception of time
inner being/ will
emotio
perception of reality to where they perceive an alternate reality even controlling them within the alternate reality directly controlling the dream scape or nightmare realm controlling lucid dreaming
none of which ks have ever shown or implied to be able to do. therefore we cant make the assumption that "maybe he can" or "well he should because it controls the senses". this is clearly an argument from ignorance ,because ks can control the senses that doesn't suggest at any level known to fiction or psychology. ks would need to display such feats in order to make such assumptions. you would have to also agree that basic genjutsu can cause tsukuyomi levels of inducement. simply because it controls the senses ,as well which is a really absurd position to hold.
also holding this odd position, that ks is Superior simply because no being in its perceptive verse has resisted its inducement. when not a single being in said verse has ever shown to have any type of resistance to said inducement. is absurd an irrational naruto characters from a young age are trained to resist different methods of inducement. even to discern and hard counter, building composition around cells/teams while drilling the "see through deception" into ninjas in training skulls ect.
to make that assumption we should examine both abilities in terms of potency. how each have shown to influence the mind , unconscious or conscious which reminds me. that ocular genjutsu can not only place someone in an unconscious state, but also directly control them while they are in that state. which ks hasn't been shown to do, ks cant even affect someone that is unable to visually perceive. a prime example is aizen subordinate tousen
another misconception ill like to address, is this false notion that ks has a faster cast time, activation consistently ks needs to be released or activated. its not a passive, meaning it should logically scale to his combat speed. ocular gen, the faster method of inducement in the verse. would logically have a faster activation , cast time then ks seeing as how it requires visual perception.
simple speed scaling perception directs cognition
perception>reaction>combat>travel
not that it really matters, if they both had the same cast time. genjutsu would have the advantage, because it does everything ks can do and more,this is more so for the sake of enlightenment.
consistently ocular gen has been shown to directly control the conscious mind and even the subconscious
thought
perception of time
inner being/ will
emotio
perception of reality to where they perceive an alternate reality even controlling them within the alternate reality directly controlling the dream scape or nightmare realm controlling lucid dreaming
none of which ks have ever shown or implied to be able to do. therefore we cant make the assumption that "maybe he can" or "well he should because it controls the senses". this is clearly an argument from ignorance ,because ks can control the senses that doesn't suggest at any level known to fiction or psychology. ks would need to display such feats in order to make such assumptions. you would have to also agree that basic genjutsu can cause tsukuyomi levels of inducement. simply because it controls the senses ,as well which is a really absurd position to hold.
also holding this odd position, that ks is Superior simply because no being in its perceptive verse has resisted its inducement. when not a single being in said verse has ever shown to have any type of resistance to said inducement. is absurd an irrational naruto characters from a young age are trained to resist different methods of inducement. even to discern and hard counter, building composition around cells/teams while drilling the "see through deception" into ninjas in training skulls ect.
to make that assumption we should examine both abilities in terms of potency. how each have shown to influence the mind , unconscious or conscious which reminds me. that ocular genjutsu can not only place someone in an unconscious state, but also directly control them while they are in that state. which ks hasn't been shown to do, ks cant even affect someone that is unable to visually perceive. a prime example is aizen subordinate tousen
another misconception ill like to address, is this false notion that ks has a faster cast time, activation consistently ks needs to be released or activated. its not a passive, meaning it should logically scale to his combat speed. ocular gen, the faster method of inducement in the verse. would logically have a faster activation , cast time then ks seeing as how it requires visual perception.
simple speed scaling perception directs cognition
perception>reaction>combat>travel
not that it really matters, if they both had the same cast time. genjutsu would have the advantage, because it does everything ks can do and more,this is more so for the sake of enlightenment.
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Kyoka is tempting though. High Level Basic Genjutsu and Kyoka do the same thing but having the blade is tempting. Also I can set illusions possibly forever. So I'd take Kyoka. That's just my personal preference but I agree Sharingan Genjutsu and above is better.
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you can also make the argument ,that ocular gen hypnosis/trance is superior due to it rendering the victims unconscious or immobile, often having a paralysis type of effect. you can also use the staying power of the inducement as a point. seeing as how ,shisui ability has been used even though hes dead. the inducement remains even in the casters/users death. itachi even destroyed the eye, yet he was still under the influence of the ability of the inducement . all in all there is just no way to say ks is better here you're just saying ks is better then itself combined with better feats.
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- No one in Naruto has resistance to soul manipulation. Grabbing once soul is not resistance if it almost killed you and you had to physically prevent that from happening.
- Naruto's souls are connected to Earth through chakra with limbo we know this when White Fang talks to Kakashi.
- We haven't been introduced to the afterlife in Naruto and we don't know if they can use chakra there, probably not since chakra was created on the living world and chakra connects souls from Limbo to the material world in Naruto.
- The Pure Land in Naruto is unknown to us.
- Genjutsu has not affected a single soul that's not connected to a physical body a.k.a. an Edo.
My point stands.
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Lol that's hilarious apple. Naruto literally has resistance to someone pulling his soul out. There was literally crt made for it where it was agreed long ago by the staff. I don't even know where this misconception from bleach fans came from that Naruto doesn't have resistance to soul manipulation
Naruto literally pulled his soul back while being pulled in the opposite direction from nagato summon so the feat is even better since nagato needed help even trying to pull his soul and Naruto was losing power at the same time but he could still resist
Also souls don't necessarily need chakra in the first place to use abilities but I'll save that for another day
Naruto literally pulled his soul back while being pulled in the opposite direction from nagato summon so the feat is even better since nagato needed help even trying to pull his soul and Naruto was losing power at the same time but he could still resist
Also souls don't necessarily need chakra in the first place to use abilities but I'll save that for another day
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That was really not needed for u to say if you ask me. Either you don't know how resistances work or u don't know the context of the feat or you don't know all of the abilities of soul manipulation.
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At the very end of Naruto souls summoned by Hagoromo were using chakra.AppleLord said:
your point does not stand on anything.
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>The thread is a fight of Illusion Manipulation
>People talk about soul manipulation and afterlife.
>People talk about soul manipulation and afterlife.
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thats what happens i threads Bleach and Naruto are invoved in.
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Kyoka Suigetsu is Kotoamatsukami (best genjutsu in series) but better. soo.
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its really not though.
Its not on its level, saying its better is completely wrong.
Its not on its level, saying its better is completely wrong.
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Both can make you see anything, but Captains and Visoreds were affected by Kyoka Suigetsu even a hundred years later, Kotoamatsukami can be used only once 10 years. Aizen can spam it, and he became one with Kyoka Suigetsu spirit so you look at him = you're under effects.
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both can make you see anything.
but Kotoamatsu can completely control your actions without you noticing or percieving it in any possible way and also make you think that eeverything you do is y your own actions.
kotoamatsu has also been used to overcome near perfect control of undead zombies.
The 10 year thing is only for people that are not shisui.
also an unnamed genjutsu Itachi used on a woman to seduce jiraiya also completely controlled her mind and actions, of course it is definitely not as good as shisui's but if we are not takin into acount fighting super ninjas or super spirits it is not bad either way.
but Kotoamatsu can completely control your actions without you noticing or percieving it in any possible way and also make you think that eeverything you do is y your own actions.
kotoamatsu has also been used to overcome near perfect control of undead zombies.
The 10 year thing is only for people that are not shisui.
also an unnamed genjutsu Itachi used on a woman to seduce jiraiya also completely controlled her mind and actions, of course it is definitely not as good as shisui's but if we are not takin into acount fighting super ninjas or super spirits it is not bad either way.
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With Kyoka Suigetsu, even if you know you're under control you can't make literally anything to break out of it. It can make fly a dragon, or change entire surrounding into a volcano just for those that are under the effect. Of course both mean that you're donezo.
Seriously? I think it can be used only once per decade for any user. Danzo used it few times only because he had Hashirama cells that increase your limits.
Seriously? I think it can be used only once per decade for any user. Danzo used it few times only because he had Hashirama cells that increase your limits.
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I dont know what you mean by flying dragon or volcano since neither would actually kill you, unlike tuskuyomi btw which can be used to kill a person just by its effects or force them to be hospitalized for a while.SpookyShadow said:
Err no, that is only for Danzo. Shisui was well known for it and his body flicker technique(there is even a filler where he knocks out several ninja with it). He was only a teenage, a 10 year cool down can not be used multiple times.
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Then the "Weaknesses: Kotoamatsukami can only be used once every decade." should be removed if I'm wrong? You can make a CRT.
I'm not talking about Tsukuyomi. You need a direct eye contact to cast it, with KS just look at Aizen = get ******.
I'm not talking about Tsukuyomi. You need a direct eye contact to cast it, with KS just look at Aizen = get ******.
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Yeah and I am saying that even tsukuyomi which is weaker than Kotoamatsu is capable of doing that. tbh direct eye contact happens so often in fights I dont think it matters. Unless you know about it ofcourse.SpookyShadow said:
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Yea but Kyoka Suigetsu can be used on limitless amount of people at once, Tsukuyomi can be casted on only one person. Koto should have limited amount too.
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tsukuomi's limit is how many people look at yours eyes, while koto is how many you look at.
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Meh. Tsukuyomi never had feat like catching few people at once into torture. Kyoka Suigetsu caught like, entire Gotei 13.
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I will ask some questions:
Aizen uses KS in a Genin, Chünin and Jōnin to make them feel a strong, unbearable smell of decomposition, and make them feel their whole skin burning in flames (all together simultaneously).
1- Would they know what KS is?
2- How would they know that their sense of smell and touch are hypnotized?
3- How would they get out of it?
Aizen uses KS in a Genin, Chünin and Jōnin to make them feel a strong, unbearable smell of decomposition, and make them feel their whole skin burning in flames (all together simultaneously).
1- Would they know what KS is?
2- How would they know that their sense of smell and touch are hypnotized?
3- How would they get out of it?
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Even if they knew it wouldn't do shit. You can break out of Kyoka Suigetsu only when you touch it, and after Aizen fused with it it's not happening.
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1) they wouldn't , they would at best theorize they are under a genjutsu wich is wrong .Snoke123 said:
2) the only way they would know for sure is if aizen tell them but given that in naruto world genjutsu exist they could theorize that are under something similar pretty easily if aizen don't conjure visual illusions to go with the rotten smell and burning.
3)doubtfull that any of their technique to break out of genjutsu work on KS as it affect the soul.
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They will break out of it if they have the right amount of resistance. We never stated scaling perception manipulation and illusions by using souls. Don't know when this started and should have a crt if anyone wants to start using it out of no where right now.
TFO also explained how consciousness/mind is carried over on planes of existence so there isn't really a reason to scale illusion and perception manipulation by souls anyway since consciousness/mind is effected anyway. You can learn about the human conscious/mind in psychology btw
TFO also explained how consciousness/mind is carried over on planes of existence so there isn't really a reason to scale illusion and perception manipulation by souls anyway since consciousness/mind is effected anyway. You can learn about the human conscious/mind in psychology btw
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How is Kyoka Suigetsu superior to Koto? If you're caught in a subtle illusion you're unaware by default. Koto is much better it's mind control not illusion. Any basic genjutsu can create subtle illusions.
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With Hashi Cells you can use Koto everyday.
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And any basic illusion can be casted on you for hundreds of years?
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I know Kyoka has better longevity but Koto lasts for an entire lifetime. Tsukuyomi is literally creating entire realities of illusions and can be death manipulation too because Itachi used it on his girlfriend Izumi in the novels and she died in the illusion which lasted 80 years from her perception and her brain was overloaded.
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"Mom, it was just the garbage—" Having gotten this far, Uchiha Izumi
stopped herself. "Itachi?" Glancing over at her mother on the floor, Izumi
stared dumbfounded, not understanding what was going on. "Wh-why ..."
He couldn't stand to listen to Izumi's voice any further. He concentrated
his chakra in his eye. The Mangekyo sharingan.
"Tsukuyomi."
Izumi froze in place.
Itachi focused his thoughts on his own genjutsu. Tsukuyomi allowed him
to completely control time, space, and matter. It was a power he had gained
when he activated the Mangekyo sharingan. The time that passed within this
genjutsu was one one-hundredth of one one-thousandth of one one-millionth
of that of the real world.
Itachi drew out a clear image. Peace in the village of Konoha, the cla
tranquil. His own form, freed from all trouble.
And Izumi beside him, smiling.
Izumi becomes a chunin, as if chasing after him. At that time, Itachi is
already a jonin.
He hands a pouting Izumi an engagement ring.
Izumi retiring as a ninja.
Marriage.
Childbirth.
Child-rearing.
The children setting out.
Izumi growing old together with Itachi.
Seventy years since they met.
The hair on both of their heads is white.
Izumi's illness.
He takes care of her.
Her last years ...
The Mangekyo sharingan consumed an enormous amount of chakra, and
so placed an equivalent burden on the user. Shoulders rising, Itachi took a
deep breath, as if crawling up from the depths of the ocean. Before him,
Izumi's knees gave out under her, and she collapsed, smiling.
Sliding over, Itachi held her up, tightly gripping her slender shoulders.
"Thank you." Izumi's voice sounded like that of an old woman past eighty
years of age.
"Me, too. Thank you." He squeezed her shoulders more tightly, and could
say nothing more.
With a broad smile on her face, Izumi took her last peaceful breath.
The mind and the body were indivisible. If the mind decays, the body also
falls apart.
Izumi died, joyful.
After gently laying the now motionless Izumi down on the floor, Itachi
staggered to his feet. The intense expenditure of chakra made his body shake.
I decided that Izumi would be first ...
By killing her himself, he wiped away the last of his hesitation—the
hesitation borne of unfinished business with the clan, of bonds of emotion.
"Thank you, Izumi." Itachi slowly turned around. There lay her mother,
knocked unconscious by the sharingan.
stopped herself. "Itachi?" Glancing over at her mother on the floor, Izumi
stared dumbfounded, not understanding what was going on. "Wh-why ..."
He couldn't stand to listen to Izumi's voice any further. He concentrated
his chakra in his eye. The Mangekyo sharingan.
"Tsukuyomi."
Izumi froze in place.
Itachi focused his thoughts on his own genjutsu. Tsukuyomi allowed him
to completely control time, space, and matter. It was a power he had gained
when he activated the Mangekyo sharingan. The time that passed within this
genjutsu was one one-hundredth of one one-thousandth of one one-millionth
of that of the real world.
Itachi drew out a clear image. Peace in the village of Konoha, the cla
tranquil. His own form, freed from all trouble.
And Izumi beside him, smiling.
Izumi becomes a chunin, as if chasing after him. At that time, Itachi is
already a jonin.
He hands a pouting Izumi an engagement ring.
Izumi retiring as a ninja.
Marriage.
Childbirth.
Child-rearing.
The children setting out.
Izumi growing old together with Itachi.
Seventy years since they met.
The hair on both of their heads is white.
Izumi's illness.
He takes care of her.
Her last years ...
The Mangekyo sharingan consumed an enormous amount of chakra, and
so placed an equivalent burden on the user. Shoulders rising, Itachi took a
deep breath, as if crawling up from the depths of the ocean. Before him,
Izumi's knees gave out under her, and she collapsed, smiling.
Sliding over, Itachi held her up, tightly gripping her slender shoulders.
"Thank you." Izumi's voice sounded like that of an old woman past eighty
years of age.
"Me, too. Thank you." He squeezed her shoulders more tightly, and could
say nothing more.
With a broad smile on her face, Izumi took her last peaceful breath.
The mind and the body were indivisible. If the mind decays, the body also
falls apart.
Izumi died, joyful.
After gently laying the now motionless Izumi down on the floor, Itachi
staggered to his feet. The intense expenditure of chakra made his body shake.
I decided that Izumi would be first ...
By killing her himself, he wiped away the last of his hesitation—the
hesitation borne of unfinished business with the clan, of bonds of emotion.
"Thank you, Izumi." Itachi slowly turned around. There lay her mother,
knocked unconscious by the sharingan.
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This is what it did to Izumi.
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- Hagoromo summon souls at the end with chakra? So the same thing I said. THANKS for backing me up that souls are connected to the living world through chakra and limbo.
- Not a single soul feat of Genjutsu working on souls that are not connected to a body through chakra.
- Touching a soul with your hands and pulling the soul is not resistance to soul manipulation is a mediocre feat that Naruto was struggling to pull chakra since souls are made of chakra and chakra isn't even intangible in Naruto.
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