Heavens_Feel
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He actually did. Twice.Naeblis495 said:
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Genjutsu vs Kyoka suigetsu which one is better and which one would u rather have
- Thread starter Kidkinsey
- Start date
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really ? i don't remember that . my bad thenHeavens Feel said:
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It's impossible to break out of in the Bleach verse, but that doesn't = Naruto verse.Naeblis495 said:
Two completely different mechanics. Higher level genjutsu has a thicc scaling chain.
Also, when I say Genjutsu (As a whole) I'm including MS genjutsu which doesn't have that disrupting the chakra in your brain weakness (Which is actually more complicated than just that...)
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KS can target the soul and it's senses and yet even those with very high soul manip resistance in bleach verse were powerless to do anything against it or even notice they were under it .
Naruto verse have no soul manip protection beside 3 characthers i believe and those that do possess it have weaker soul protection than some lowest tier in bleach.
Naruto verse can't break out of KS
Naruto verse have no soul manip protection beside 3 characthers i believe and those that do possess it have weaker soul protection than some lowest tier in bleach.
Naruto verse can't break out of KS
Heavens_Feel
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He actually did. Twice.
really ? i don't remember that . my bad then
One wasnt shown in the anime, where he mindcontrolled jirobu and the othe gate guards before he left soul society
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
really ? i don't remember that . my bad then
One wasnt shown in the anime, where he mindcontrolled jirobu and the othe gate guards before he left soul society
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
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More like, which would you prefer.
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- Thread starter
- #51
He actually did. Twice.
really ? i don't remember that . my bad then
One wasnt shown in the anime, where he mindcontrolled jirobu and the othe gate guards before he left soul society
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
Was the person forced to or did he think it was happening under his own free will
really ? i don't remember that . my bad then
One wasnt shown in the anime, where he mindcontrolled jirobu and the othe gate guards before he left soul society
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
Was the person forced to or did he think it was happening under his own free will
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in my view , a technique that is harder to break out is an advantage .YungManzi said:
genjutsu as a whole seems to have more weaknesses/are countered more easily than KS
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Depends.
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isn't that how genjutsu like tsukuyomi work ? it look so real that it confuse the mind so you feel exactly as if it was realKidkinsey said:
Is this an official translation? If so shiddddd
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really ? i don't remember that . my bad then One wasnt shown in the anime, where he mindcontrolled jirobu and the othe gate guards before he left soul societyKidkinsey said:
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
Was the person forced to or did he think it was happening under his own free will
the gate guards were clearly controlled : https://www.***********.net/bleach/177/14
they spoke no words and didn't reacted to anything beside annemies
not sure about the other , it seems aizen teached him how to act like him but it's not clear if the dude was under control or not .
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He actually did. Twice. really ? i don't remember that . my bad then One wasnt shown in the anime, where he mindcontrolled jirobu and the othe gate guards before he left soul society
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
Was the person forced to or did he think it was happening under his own free will
the gate guards were clearly controlled : https://www.***********.net/bleach/177/14
they spoke no words and didn't reacted to anything beside annemies
not sure about the other , it seems aizen teached him how to act like him but it's not clear if the dude was under control or not .
I took it more so as they assumed that they were the enemy so tbey attacked, Aizens thing is sense manip not mind manip
The other was when he made someone follow shinji around in his place for a month or so
Was the person forced to or did he think it was happening under his own free will
the gate guards were clearly controlled : https://www.***********.net/bleach/177/14
they spoke no words and didn't reacted to anything beside annemies
not sure about the other , it seems aizen teached him how to act like him but it's not clear if the dude was under control or not .
I took it more so as they assumed that they were the enemy so tbey attacked, Aizens thing is sense manip not mind manip
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I took it more so as they assumed that they were the enemy so tbey attacked, Aizens thing is sense manip not mind manip
those four are warrior that love a battle , they would have spoken at least a single word about it's good to fight or something if they were just under simple illusions
those four are warrior that love a battle , they would have spoken at least a single word about it's good to fight or something if they were just under simple illusions
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you may know it but it doesn't stop your brain from interpreting it as real .Kidkinsey said:
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Genjutsu GG.
It is extremely versatile and has several, from simply making him sleep to even killing someone (Itachi's Novel). Sharingan Genjutsus are extremely difficult to leave (or almost impossible) if you don't have someone to help you, such as a mate or Bijuu.
It is extremely versatile and has several, from simply making him sleep to even killing someone (Itachi's Novel). Sharingan Genjutsus are extremely difficult to leave (or almost impossible) if you don't have someone to help you, such as a mate or Bijuu.
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I wouldn't say extremely difficult. You gotta remember and I think people rarely do, most of the Genjutsu we see used is pretty powerful. Itachi is a premiere Genjutsu expert that handles other experts. Most Uchiha for sure weren't on his level, or on Sasuke's from the Itachi battle and forward.
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Genjustu can do everything Kyouka can and more so it's better in terms of versatility. It can make extremelty subtle illusions seen with Sasuke vs Danzo and Obito even says it's a basic ability of the Sharingan to do that. The only category Kyouka is outright better is longevity.
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Indeed. But if I'm not mistaken, the basic Genjutsus are already explained as affecting the mind and the 5 basic senses, which if I'm not mistaken is basically KS's explanation, except for the "touch your blade to break free the illusion" part, that doesn't work with those who have good mental resistance.
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Exactly. Sharingan Genjustu is superior to regular Genjustu which is technically the same thing as Kyouka.
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Longevity.
Ease of pulling off.
Not to mention both are pretty similar in variety.
Ease of pulling off.
Not to mention both are pretty similar in variety.
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Ease of putting off isn't really a factor if you have no knowledge of either ability. I wouldn't say that I've seen much better regular sharingan genjutsu then I've seen Kyouka. This is not even factoring sound genjutsu and MS genjutsu.
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Not that the utility part makes sense outside of Naruto's verse. I'm pretty sure that unless the character is from Naruto's verse, no one would suspect that looking into an Uchiha's eyes would result in being caught in an extremely powerful illusion.
Even in Classic, team 7 and Kabuto were caught in a Looping genjutsu and they didn't even know what was going on, until several minutes or hours passed, and remembering that Sakura herself could recognize and dispel Genjutsus.
Even in Classic, team 7 and Kabuto were caught in a Looping genjutsu and they didn't even know what was going on, until several minutes or hours passed, and remembering that Sakura herself could recognize and dispel Genjutsus.
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KS has its uses, it versatile and easy to use but as said abive by others I personally don't think it is that special. It is Greta in verse. Mind manipulation techniques in Bleach are not used nearly as often as in Naruto. But even basic genjutsu affect the 5 senses just like KS does. KS has easy activation compared to basic genjutsu however. But generally it comes to the sharing an which straight up let story control the mind of whoever looks into your eyes, without getting into special techniques and the sort, like tsukuyomi, Kotoamatsu and the rest it kinda outstrips KS personally. Yeah they need to look into your eyes but with no knowledge unless your opponent is blind that is bound to happen. Blind opponents probably won't fall for KS either tbh unlike normal genjutsu might I point out. People talk about flaring your chakra to get out of genjutsu but forget her that you have to learn how to do it right. Just powering up does not move your chakra the way it needs to so that you can escape genjutsu. There is also some genjutsu like in the blank period of Naruto, the ketsurugyan(or smth like that) allows you to turn people into zombies via genjutsu and turn them into living bombs, like that one girl in Bleach and I can't remember her name. Genjutsu can also be implanted into people and other objects as traps.
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Most Versatile
Varies.
Activatio
EoS Kyouka Suigetsu can be activated upon just looking at Aizen's body which is pretty much faster than every Genjutsu in Naruto since all of them require the caster to perform the Jutsu.
Effects
EoS Kyouka Suigetsu can affect the 5 senses and also your sense of time. It can also affect multiple visions at once as seen with it affecting Yhwach's ability to view a near infinite amount of futures. Bleach characters also have a 6th sense, Reikaku sensing, which seems affected or impacted upon KS being placed on them.
Basic Genjutsu control the 5 senses, that's it.
Sharingan Genjutsu have the added effects of Izanagi and Izanami if the caster knows how to use them. Both are singular time uses and render one eye of the Sharingan user blind, thus you have only two chances to use them which then render your Genjutsu abilities null.
Itachi's Tsukiyomi affect sense of time.
Shisui's Genjutsu literally controls you without you knowing, whatever he wants you to do happens.
Infinite Tsukuyomi is pretty much like Itachi's Tsukiyomi except with a larger casting range.
Shisui's is better in effect.
Reactivatio
To reactivate Genjutsu you must recast it on the target.
KS is better since it can the target need only view it once and are forever always affected and can have their senses affected anywhere and anytime.
Harder to Break
You can break basic Genjutsu with pain not from the Genjutsu, disrupting Chakra flow, outside help releasing you from it (or if you have an internal being inside of you like the Bijuu they can help you of it) or training yourself like Deidara to be resistant to basic Genjutsu.
Ocular Genjutsu can be broken the same ways.
Sharingan Genjutsu can be broken with disruption of Chakra Flow and outside help (or internal).
Shisui's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu.
Itachi's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu.
Infinite Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a specific method that can't be replicated via normal means.
KS can't be broken as it's only method of breaking it has been removed since the Zanpakuto no longer exists, it's harder to break.
More Potent
KS is based on whoever sees Aizen, it doesn't have a potency really since if an infinite number of people see Aizen then an infinite number of people are affected.
Ocular Genjutsu is based on the caster's sight, thus it's potency is limited.
Shisui's Genjutsu is based on his sight.
Itachi's Genjutsu is based on his sight.
Sound Genjutsu is based on whoever hears the sound, it doesn't have a potency really since if an infinite number of people hear it then an infinite number of people are affected.
Infinite Tsukuyomi is based on whatever light the moon touches on the planet, so a planet surface limit.
So there isn't one that is more potent as KS, Sound Genjutsu and IT are pretty much under the same potency, but if we're being honest... IT is better because of it's greater casting range. Sound is slow and has limits to how far it can go, sight is based on 5km at least and the IT can affect a planet at once. So IT is better in this regard of range.
Which I Would Rather Have
In a real world, nearly all Genjutsu are useless as they don't affect anyone without a Chakra Network System.
Only Shisui's Genjutsu and IT would work on those without one as those specifically put Chakra in the target to control the target or affect those without a Chakra Network, respectively.
KS will work on anyone, but it also has one downside on the fact that if you don't have a monstrous amount of Reiryoku like Aizen then it's a sad version of it as shown by Tokinada.
Honestly I think IT is dumb, it just incapactitates an entire planet, with Shisui's I can directly control people to do what I want with it and it's whoever I see.
With KS I can manipulate them, but I can't control them and it's whoever sees me.
I'd go with Shisui's, in all honesty it's a pretty strong Genjutsu and it's the only one that I always thought was more useful than KS and better in terms of utility.
Varies.
Activatio
EoS Kyouka Suigetsu can be activated upon just looking at Aizen's body which is pretty much faster than every Genjutsu in Naruto since all of them require the caster to perform the Jutsu.
Effects
EoS Kyouka Suigetsu can affect the 5 senses and also your sense of time. It can also affect multiple visions at once as seen with it affecting Yhwach's ability to view a near infinite amount of futures. Bleach characters also have a 6th sense, Reikaku sensing, which seems affected or impacted upon KS being placed on them.
Basic Genjutsu control the 5 senses, that's it.
Sharingan Genjutsu have the added effects of Izanagi and Izanami if the caster knows how to use them. Both are singular time uses and render one eye of the Sharingan user blind, thus you have only two chances to use them which then render your Genjutsu abilities null.
Itachi's Tsukiyomi affect sense of time.
Shisui's Genjutsu literally controls you without you knowing, whatever he wants you to do happens.
Infinite Tsukuyomi is pretty much like Itachi's Tsukiyomi except with a larger casting range.
Shisui's is better in effect.
Reactivatio
To reactivate Genjutsu you must recast it on the target.
KS is better since it can the target need only view it once and are forever always affected and can have their senses affected anywhere and anytime.
Harder to Break
You can break basic Genjutsu with pain not from the Genjutsu, disrupting Chakra flow, outside help releasing you from it (or if you have an internal being inside of you like the Bijuu they can help you of it) or training yourself like Deidara to be resistant to basic Genjutsu.
Ocular Genjutsu can be broken the same ways.
Sharingan Genjutsu can be broken with disruption of Chakra Flow and outside help (or internal).
Shisui's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu.
Itachi's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu.
Infinite Tsukuyomi can only be broken by a specific method that can't be replicated via normal means.
KS can't be broken as it's only method of breaking it has been removed since the Zanpakuto no longer exists, it's harder to break.
More Potent
KS is based on whoever sees Aizen, it doesn't have a potency really since if an infinite number of people see Aizen then an infinite number of people are affected.
Ocular Genjutsu is based on the caster's sight, thus it's potency is limited.
Shisui's Genjutsu is based on his sight.
Itachi's Genjutsu is based on his sight.
Sound Genjutsu is based on whoever hears the sound, it doesn't have a potency really since if an infinite number of people hear it then an infinite number of people are affected.
Infinite Tsukuyomi is based on whatever light the moon touches on the planet, so a planet surface limit.
So there isn't one that is more potent as KS, Sound Genjutsu and IT are pretty much under the same potency, but if we're being honest... IT is better because of it's greater casting range. Sound is slow and has limits to how far it can go, sight is based on 5km at least and the IT can affect a planet at once. So IT is better in this regard of range.
Which I Would Rather Have
In a real world, nearly all Genjutsu are useless as they don't affect anyone without a Chakra Network System.
Only Shisui's Genjutsu and IT would work on those without one as those specifically put Chakra in the target to control the target or affect those without a Chakra Network, respectively.
KS will work on anyone, but it also has one downside on the fact that if you don't have a monstrous amount of Reiryoku like Aizen then it's a sad version of it as shown by Tokinada.
Honestly I think IT is dumb, it just incapactitates an entire planet, with Shisui's I can directly control people to do what I want with it and it's whoever I see.
With KS I can manipulate them, but I can't control them and it's whoever sees me.
I'd go with Shisui's, in all honesty it's a pretty strong Genjutsu and it's the only one that I always thought was more useful than KS and better in terms of utility.
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Mostly yeah, but a couple of things.
Itachi's Tsukiyomi can create entire worlds, and fake realities in which people can literally relive their entire lives and can actually kill people and experience pain in real life through it.
Only basic genjutsu can be broken with disturbing your chakra flow. Tsukiyomi is stated that in verse can only be broken by people that share Itachi's bloodline and having a kekkei genkai. Mangekyou sharingangenjutsu can only be broken by mangekyou sharingan. Izanami/Izanagi are virtually unbreakable.
And Itachi can genjutsu just by pointing his finger. And pretty sure Sasuke mindhaxed the tailed beasts without even looking at them.
And genjutsu is made by inserting your own chakra in someones brain.
Itachi's Tsukiyomi can create entire worlds, and fake realities in which people can literally relive their entire lives and can actually kill people and experience pain in real life through it.
Only basic genjutsu can be broken with disturbing your chakra flow. Tsukiyomi is stated that in verse can only be broken by people that share Itachi's bloodline and having a kekkei genkai. Mangekyou sharingangenjutsu can only be broken by mangekyou sharingan. Izanami/Izanagi are virtually unbreakable.
And Itachi can genjutsu just by pointing his finger. And pretty sure Sasuke mindhaxed the tailed beasts without even looking at them.
And genjutsu is made by inserting your own chakra in someones brain.
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Following a line of reasoning like IMade, I will put some points on Genjutsu.
Activatio
It depends on genjutsu, as some just need to know where their opponent is, such as Oboro and Kakashi.
Others need eye contact.
Others need sound contact.
Some can be set as traps from the moment you arrive at the given location, such as Hamura's, in The Last.
Versatility/Effects
Genjutsus showed a gigantic variety of effects :
So here we can easily define versatility and a range of effects. This has nothing to discuss, Genjutsus are extremely more versatile than the KS.
Difficulties in escaping
Sharingan Genjutsus cannot be released alone. This has been shown a gigantic variety of times :
Conclusion
The difficulty of breaking both illusion is the same ... The resistance of the user or whatever he has to be able to counter the illusions.
Potency
Most Genjutsus are used for distraction and other things. However, some deserve highlights, such as:
Conclusion
So obviously Genjutsu, especially in the offensive sense, is much more powerful than KS.
Final considerations
As stated above, the fact that some genjutsus are activated through sight is not a disadvantage. Unless one has some kind of vision of the future, or a Narutoverse character, this little "hindrance" is irrelevant in the general context.
Activatio
It depends on genjutsu, as some just need to know where their opponent is, such as Oboro and Kakashi.
Others need eye contact.
Others need sound contact.
Some can be set as traps from the moment you arrive at the given location, such as Hamura's, in The Last.
Versatility/Effects
Genjutsus showed a gigantic variety of effects :
- They paralyzing and suffocating , like Kurenai's genjutsus.
- Sleepers , like the simple Kabuto Genjutsu.
- Losing direction being, like Oboro's Genjutsu, who managed to affect Team 7 + Kabuto.
- Genjutsus involving despair and fear , as put by Kakashi in Sakura.
- Genjutsus that involve paralizyng and intense pai and can be thrown into the sound, like Tayuya's.
- Genjutsus that create illusions and mirages , such as those of Gengetsu Hozuki.
- Genjutsus that can manipulate Vision, pai and auditio , such as Itachi's.
- Apart from Sharingan genjutsus, which affect perception, paralyze , instant unconsciousness , rummage through memories and catch informations , torture , control his actions and mind (It basically simulates an effect similar to Shisui's Kotoamatsukami), and so on, so on, so on.
So here we can easily define versatility and a range of effects. This has nothing to discuss, Genjutsus are extremely more versatile than the KS.
Difficulties in escaping
Sharingan Genjutsus cannot be released alone. This has been shown a gigantic variety of times :
- Naruto tried to get out of Itachi's Genjutsu (and it wasn't an eyepiece), disrupting his chakra flow and failed .
- Killer B couldn't escape Sasuke's Genjutsu alone either and used his mate Bijuu to free him .
- And yet, we see that some Sharingan users, who are not even expert as an Itachi, can easily put Yagura , a Perfect Jinchuuriki like Killer B, into a Genjutsu for a long time .
Conclusion
The difficulty of breaking both illusion is the same ... The resistance of the user or whatever he has to be able to counter the illusions.
Potency
Most Genjutsus are used for distraction and other things. However, some deserve highlights, such as:
- Tayuya's genjutsu, which paralyzes and induce excruciates pain.
- Kabuto's genjutsu, capable of pass out hundreds or perhaps thousands of people within an arena.
- Kurenai's Genjutsu, which paralyzes and is able to suffocate someone by trapping it inside a beanstalk and / or choking it between its beams, simulating true effects.
- The Genjutsu of the Senin Frogs, capable of paralyzing and suffocating someone by trapping them in a kind of object with water.
- Sharingan genjutsus, which exercise several of the above characteristics. The Tsukuyomi can literally kill (according to Itachi Novel) and distorts the sense of time and space.
Shisui's, which indirectly controls the target's actions without realizing it, can literally overwhelm another mind control, such as Edo Tensei's.
Conclusion
So obviously Genjutsu, especially in the offensive sense, is much more powerful than KS.
Final considerations
As stated above, the fact that some genjutsus are activated through sight is not a disadvantage. Unless one has some kind of vision of the future, or a Narutoverse character, this little "hindrance" is irrelevant in the general context.
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Personally, I side with Genjutsu more than KS. Mainly because we've seen them pull off a lot more.
KS is good for distraction, hiding your actual movements and decieving your opponents. It also last much longer as, after you gotten someone under it's effects, everytime you release KS, they'll be under it's influence.
Genjutsu on the other hand has done stuff including inducing pain, putting people into comas, suffocating them, outright killing, mind control, interrogation, knocking someone out and so on. Not too mention that higher level genjutsu also tend to immobilize the targest as they deal with the illusion. There's also the fact that genjutsu can be cast with simple gestures which opens it up to a lot of potential situations outside of even combat. I mean, going undercover and putting your target into a trance just by point at them or turning over a hand? Making them give you need information or the like? Also, we know that Genjutsu can be used over long distances. Itachi was putting people under Genjutsu outside of sensor range.
It's like comparing hamburger to steak. Both are good but one is simply of a higher quality.
KS is good for distraction, hiding your actual movements and decieving your opponents. It also last much longer as, after you gotten someone under it's effects, everytime you release KS, they'll be under it's influence.
Genjutsu on the other hand has done stuff including inducing pain, putting people into comas, suffocating them, outright killing, mind control, interrogation, knocking someone out and so on. Not too mention that higher level genjutsu also tend to immobilize the targest as they deal with the illusion. There's also the fact that genjutsu can be cast with simple gestures which opens it up to a lot of potential situations outside of even combat. I mean, going undercover and putting your target into a trance just by point at them or turning over a hand? Making them give you need information or the like? Also, we know that Genjutsu can be used over long distances. Itachi was putting people under Genjutsu outside of sensor range.
It's like comparing hamburger to steak. Both are good but one is simply of a higher quality.
Heavens_Feel
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Genjutsus biggest weakness is how easily its broken out of while KS has no such weakness.
I also see KS as having way more versatility then genjutsu. with prep, you can pretty much do whatever you want all the time with no effort and very little counterplay to end KS. Genjutsu can be snapped out of and doesn't last indefinitely like KS.
As for potency, Aizen basically put a entire country under it's effects.
@C2 all those points are nice and all but KS can do all of that. we already know they both can manip their 5 senses.
KS can be cast without any gestures at all.
I know it's your personal preference and opinion but I would disagree.
@OP Definitely would rather KS. way more useful to have.
I also see KS as having way more versatility then genjutsu. with prep, you can pretty much do whatever you want all the time with no effort and very little counterplay to end KS. Genjutsu can be snapped out of and doesn't last indefinitely like KS.
As for potency, Aizen basically put a entire country under it's effects.
@C2 all those points are nice and all but KS can do all of that. we already know they both can manip their 5 senses.
KS can be cast without any gestures at all.
I know it's your personal preference and opinion but I would disagree.
@OP Definitely would rather KS. way more useful to have.
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"Ocular Genjutsu can be broken the same ways.
Sharingan Genjutsu can be broken with disruption of Chakra Flow and outside help (or internal).
Shisui's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu.
Itachi's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu."
This statement made by IMade is partially misleading and partially untrue.
Also, if we're talking about composite genjutsu, I'm pretty sure Kotoamatsukami was stated to last forever. Also just realized that it should also be listed as memory manipulation on Danzo and Shisui's profiles.
Sharingan Genjutsu can be broken with disruption of Chakra Flow and outside help (or internal).
Shisui's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu.
Itachi's Genjutsu can be broken like Sharingan Genjutsu."
This statement made by IMade is partially misleading and partially untrue.
Also, if we're talking about composite genjutsu, I'm pretty sure Kotoamatsukami was stated to last forever. Also just realized that it should also be listed as memory manipulation on Danzo and Shisui's profiles.
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Maybe I'm just ignorant, but when has KS ever send someone into a coma or outright killed them? When has it been used to outright mind control people and forcibly use them?
Yeah, there's a lot of overlap, but KS, unless there's examples I just don't know about, doesn't take things to extreme that Naruto Genjutsu can IMHO.
Also, my point about gestures was for a specific scenario where you can't attract attention to yourself and that it's flexible enough for you to turn what is ususally a weakness into a strength depedning on the situation and your needs. In addition, KS may not require a gesture bit it still requires a command to be activated and then the victims seeing the activation. There is no real way of getting around that. In the same scenario as I just mentioned, if you used KS but didn't get everyone around you, you just messed up royally.
But agree to disagree.
Yeah, there's a lot of overlap, but KS, unless there's examples I just don't know about, doesn't take things to extreme that Naruto Genjutsu can IMHO.
Also, my point about gestures was for a specific scenario where you can't attract attention to yourself and that it's flexible enough for you to turn what is ususally a weakness into a strength depedning on the situation and your needs. In addition, KS may not require a gesture bit it still requires a command to be activated and then the victims seeing the activation. There is no real way of getting around that. In the same scenario as I just mentioned, if you used KS but didn't get everyone around you, you just messed up royally.
But agree to disagree.
