General DC Comics Discussion Thread

[Ralp0054]

DC "Created First Being" Problem

In the Vertigo universe (The Sandman #4–28, Lucifer Vol. 1–75), Lucifer Morningstar was the first angel God ever created — the brightest one, the Lightbringer. He rebelled against God not because he was purely evil, but because he refused to be controlled. He wanted freedom and the right to...

vsbattles.com

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

BRUCE, Gotham isn't worth it, just took your mother, Catwoman and leave the city

 

[AerrowStorm1]

Like, there's a few occassions when Metron and Orion imply Gods are a little hinky about the concept of past/future

Orion states the New Gods can move through time easily Genesis #1

Metron and Darkseid remember erased timelines Superman/Batman #23

Orion mentions the gods can see the timestream but since the crisis, can't travel through it as easily and are content to leave it alone Orion #24

 

[Ozcantabak]

8-B and hypersonic Absolute Superman calcs got accepted

 

[Ozcantabak]

It might be hyperbole but in the latest issue of Absolute Superman it states that his flesh is sizzling with the power of a fallen star, anyone know where this would land ? (It might also be refering to him getting his powers the sun but i still wonder)

 

[Antvasima]

So which DC comic books do you all currently enjoy? Among other things, I like all of the Mark Waid comic books, meaning World's Finest, Justice League, and Action Comics, and I also like Superman, Supergirl, and Superman: The Kryptonite Spectrum.

Are there any other DC Comics comicbooks that you would recommend to somebody who likes genuinely sympathetic characters and stories that are not disturbingly dark, morbid, and twisted, like almost all of the Marvel Comics stories seem to be nowadays?

 

[GeneralSol16]

World's Finest, Justice League, and Action Comics, and I also like Superman, Supergirl, and Superman: The Kryptonite Spectrum.

Practically all of these + The Flash's run.

 

[AcidSilver]

Cool. None of these crossovers seem to be canon but this makes sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I also liked that crossover story.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Why do the Flashes have H1-A range with the entire Speed Force? It's not like they can affect on that level with their punches or energy attacks. It should only be with ED.

 

[SalamJrYourBoo]

Hi everyone, I have a question about the new DC/Marvel crossover. How exactly is Kismet Ahti being portrayed here?

Is she still considered a Lord of Order, or is she being presented as a manifestation of the DC Universe itself?

 

[KaramcaS]

is Death of Endless isnt that strong anymore because of new DC history book?

 

[Elizio33]

is Death of Endless isnt that strong anymore because of new DC history book?

More or less, New History of the DC Universe confirmed that the Endless were born from the Big Bang caused by Perpetua when she created the Multiverse, but the Endless are not limited to a single Creation, for their existence extends to all the Creations within the Omniverse.

 

[Elizio33]

New Gods issue #12 is out and we know that the Source, in its purest form, dates back to a pre-creational time, before the darkness.

 

[Pluto321]

New Gods issue #12 is out and we know that the Source, in its purest form, dates back to a pre-creational time, before the darkness.

Hey I have question, does dc magic have cm1 info 2 and others things like Marvel Magic because I have seen many people say that Dr Fate beats Dr Strange but I don't see any Hax on dr fate's page that can lead him to beat dr strange.

 

[GeneralSol16]

Hey I have question, does dc magic have cm1 info 2 and others things like Marvel Magic because I have seen many people say that Dr Fate beats Dr Strange but I don't see any Hax on dr fate's page that can lead him to beat dr strange.

No.

 

[Pluto321]

No.

so no magic user from dc is ever going to beat marvel magic user, so scarlet witch with same tier can easily one shot most if not all the justice league members since then don't have resistance to cm1 and info 2

 

[GeneralSol16]

so no magic user from dc is ever going to beat marvel magic user, so scarlet witch with same tier can easily one shot most if not all the justice league members since then don't have resistance to cm1 and info 2

Pretty much yeah.
But Marvel magic being that effective should be fixed soon

 

[Elizio33]

New Gods issue #12 is out and we know that the Source, in its purest form, dates back to a pre-creational time, before the darkness.

The Source might have two keys: Light of Creation | Purest Form

 

[Antvasima]

New Gods issue #12 is out and we know that the Source, in its purest form, dates back to a pre-creational time, before the darkness.

Does our DC Comics cosmology page need to be updated accordingly?

 

[Elizio33]

Does our DC Comics cosmology page need to be updated accordingly?

Yes.

 

[Hypertornado099]

The Source might have two keys: Light of Creation | Purest Form

What's the difference between the two?

 

[Re5yh]

Here is my Presence remake:

Re5yh/Yahweh

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Yes.

Okay. That seems perfectly fine to me then.

 

[Elizio33]

Here is my Presence remake:

Re5yh/Yahweh

vsbattles.fandom.com

It looks great

 

[Hayato5652]

Does anyone know how many layers of qualitative meta Lucifer and the DC/Vertigo characters who are Tier High 1-A have?

 

[KaramcaS]

Baseline, I Think

 

[Hayato5652]

As far as I know, the Deep Change and the Speed Force were considered High 1-A baseline

They might be at least one or two layers above that, I mean things like the Overvoid, the Source, and so on

 

[KaramcaS]

They are just far higher into High 1-A, not more layer

 

[Elizio33]

What's the difference between the two?

From my understand, the Light might be the actualized form of the Source, as opposed to the Great Darkness, while the purest form of the Source is the "blank page" or "white emptiness" of potential, prior even to the Great Darkness. I suspect this "purest form" to be the self-referential void mentioned in The New Gods #1. So the Source would be a layered entity.

 

[Hayato5652]

From my understand, the Light might be the actualized form of the Source, as opposed to the Great Darkness, while the purest form of the Source is the "blank page" or "white emptiness" of potential, prior even to the Great Darkness. I suspect this "purest form" to be the self-referential void mentioned in The New Gods #1. So the Source would be a layered entity.

Now that the Crisis canons and Vertigo canons have merged, in the current DC tiering, characters like the Great Darkness and the Void are classified as High 1-A+ Type 2.

I’ve heard that each verse or each canon should only have one High 1-A+ Type 2 being. So does that mean the Void should remain in that tier, and the Great Darkness should be downgraded to High 1-A?

 

[Elizio33]

Overvoid/Source/Presence

Great Darkness

Light (Actualized form of the Source)

Yahweh (Manifestation of the Source)

High-Tier Archangels (Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar)

Hands

Perpetua

Endless

Monitor Brothers (Over-Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger)

Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite

Mandrakk

Thought Robot

Monitors (Over-Monitor's splinters)

Quintessence (collective)

New Gods

Lord of Chaos and Order

Elementals (Green, Red, ect)

Earth's heroes and sorcerers

Notes:

Pralaya and Mother Night are different aspects of the Great Darkness according to different interpretations and belief systems.

Darkseid might scale to the Quintessence in his true form as he killed them with his enhanced Omega beams, but this Darkseid was also fueled by residual multiversal energy present in many heroes held captive on Earth Omega.

Eclipso is superior to Darkseid, but only on the dark side of the moon, as demonstrated by the fact that he subdued him before Darkseid outsmarted him.

The Spectre can reach a much higher rank depending on the power granted to him by the Presence, and it is implied that it has been able to defeat the Anti-Monitor and even the Great Darkness, though the latter is uncertain.

The Endless are inferior to the Hands because they are products of the Big Bang triggered by Perpetua, and constitute fundamental aspects of the Multiverse shaped by her. However, their influence extends to all Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse.

Yahweh is a manifestation of the purest form of the Source, which could be identical to God. In fact, this would be consistent with many representations and could dispel the confusion between the Source, the Light, and the Presence. To clarify, Yahweh is another interpretation of God shaped by the Collective Unconscious, just as Pralaya is another interpretation of pre-creational darkness according to a different belief system. So, Michael and Lucifer would be second to Yahweh, but below the Light and the Great Darkness.

Even though the Elemental Realms exist below the Sphere of the Gods, and Limbo is said to lie beyond them, the Elemental Realms still intersect with the Godsphere’s territories.

Finally, the Great Darkness and the Light are roughly equal. The Great Darkness is older and more vast, but it depends on the Light to be defined and only gained consciousness through it. Not only that, but the emergence of the Light made the Darkness scream and "retreat."

 

[Elizio33]

Now that the Crisis canons and Vertigo canons have merged, in the current DC tiering, characters like the Great Darkness and the Void are classified as High 1-A+ Type 2.

I’ve heard that each verse or each canon should only have one High 1-A+ Type 2 being. So does that mean the Void should remain in that tier, and the Great Darkness should be downgraded to High 1-A?

The Great Darkness would be downgraded to High 1-A and it would be more likely that the Overvoid would be High 1-A+

 

[AcidSilver]

Overvoid/Source/Presence

Great Darkness

Light (Actualized form of the Source)

Yahweh (Manifestation of the Source)

High-Tier Archangels (Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar)

Hands

Perpetua

Endless

Monitor Brothers (Over-Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger)

Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite

Mandrakk

Thought Robot

Monitors (Over-Monitor's splinters)

Quintessence (collective)

New Gods

Lord of Chaos and Order

Elementals (Green, Red, ect)

Earth's heroes and sorcerers

Notes:

Pralaya and Mother Night are different aspects of the Great Darkness according to different interpretations and belief systems.

Darkseid might scale to the Quintessence in his true form as he killed them with his enhanced Omega beams, but this Darkseid was also fueled by residual multiversal energy present in many heroes held captive on Earth Omega.

Eclipso is superior to Darkseid, but only on the dark side of the moon, as demonstrated by the fact that he subdued him before Darkseid outsmarted him.

The Spectre can reach a much higher rank depending on the power granted to him by the Presence, and it is implied that it has been able to defeat the Anti-Monitor and even the Great Darkness, though the latter is uncertain.

The Endless are inferior to the Hands because they are products of the Big Bang triggered by Perpetua, and constitute fundamental aspects of the Multiverse shaped by her. However, their influence extends to all Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse.

Yahweh is a manifestation of the purest form of the Source, which could be identical to God. In fact, this would be consistent with many representations and could dispel the confusion between the Source, the Light, and the Presence. To clarify, Yahweh is another interpretation of God shaped by the Collective Unconscious, just as Pralaya is another interpretation of pre-creational darkness according to a different belief system. So, Michael and Lucifer would be second to Yahweh, but below the Light and the Great Darkness.

Even though the Elemental Realms exist below the Sphere of the Gods, and Limbo is said to lie beyond them, the Elemental Realms still intersect with the Godsphere’s territories.

Finally, the Great Darkness and the Light are roughly equal. The Great Darkness is older and more vast, but it depends on the Light to be defined and only gained consciousness through it. Not only that, but the emergence of the Light made the Darkness scream and "retreat."

Didn't Dark Crisis tie-in with Swamp Thing show that the Great Darkness is just Lucifer?

 

[Hayato5652]

Overvoid/Source/Presence

Great Darkness

Light (Actualized form of the Source)

Yahweh (Manifestation of the Source)

High-Tier Archangels (Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar)

Hands

Perpetua

Endless

Monitor Brothers (Over-Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger)

Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite

Mandrakk

Thought Robot

Monitors (Over-Monitor's splinters)

Quintessence (collective)

New Gods

Lord of Chaos and Order

Elementals (Green, Red, ect)

Earth's heroes and sorcerers

Notes:

Pralaya and Mother Night are different aspects of the Great Darkness according to different interpretations and belief systems.

Darkseid might scale to the Quintessence in his true form as he killed them with his enhanced Omega beams, but this Darkseid was also fueled by residual multiversal energy present in many heroes held captive on Earth Omega.

Eclipso is superior to Darkseid, but only on the dark side of the moon, as demonstrated by the fact that he subdued him before Darkseid outsmarted him.

The Spectre can reach a much higher rank depending on the power granted to him by the Presence, and it is implied that it has been able to defeat the Anti-Monitor and even the Great Darkness, though the latter is uncertain.

The Endless are inferior to the Hands because they are products of the Big Bang triggered by Perpetua, and constitute fundamental aspects of the Multiverse shaped by her. However, their influence extends to all Multiverses within the Greater Omniverse.

Yahweh is a manifestation of the purest form of the Source, which could be identical to God. In fact, this would be consistent with many representations and could dispel the confusion between the Source, the Light, and the Presence. To clarify, Yahweh is another interpretation of God shaped by the Collective Unconscious, just as Pralaya is another interpretation of pre-creational darkness according to a different belief system. So, Michael and Lucifer would be second to Yahweh, but below the Light and the Great Darkness.

Even though the Elemental Realms exist below the Sphere of the Gods, and Limbo is said to lie beyond them, the Elemental Realms still intersect with the Godsphere’s territories.

Finally, the Great Darkness and the Light are roughly equal. The Great Darkness is older and more vast, but it depends on the Light to be defined and only gained consciousness through it. Not only that, but the emergence of the Light made the Darkness scream and "retreat."

I agree with all the suggestions, DC scaling needs another revision, as not much has changed since the merger of Crisis and Vertigo canons

 

[Antvasima]

I trust Elizio's sense of judgement regarding these issues.

 

[Elizio33]

I agree with all the suggestions, DC scaling needs another revision, as not much has changed since the merger of Crisis and Vertigo canons

Yes, absolutely. Most tiers are fine as they are, but some require adjustments or changes.

 

[KaramcaS]

Overvoid/Source/Presence

Great Darkness

Light (Actualized form of the Source)

Yahweh (Manifestation of the Source)

High-Tier Archangels (Michael Demiurgos and Lucifer Morningstar)

Hands

Perpetua

Endless

Monitor Brothers (Over-Monitor, Anti-Monitor, World Forger)

Mister Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite

Mandrakk

Thought Robot

Monitors (Over-Monitor's splinters)

Quintessence (collective)

New Gods

Lord of Chaos and Order

Elementals (Green, Red, ect)

Earth's heroes and sorcerers

is this a strongest list

 

[Elizio33]

is this a strongest list

This is a hierarchy, but it is neither arbitrary nor to be followed to the letter. It simply serves to give a good idea of this hierarchy.

 

[Hayato5652]

Eclipso is superior to Darkseid

The Deep Change being infinity itself in a form of a dog was considered the source of all unprecendental power that were all innumerable worlds hinge on

If an Eclipso profile is going to be created, would he reach High 1-A tier because he absorbed the Deep Change and defeated Wally West?