Garou Copying 3A CRT

[RandomGuy2345]

It's me I guess.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

The idea of garou not being able to copy any strength slightly above his own is pretty insane to me, since the opposition would pretty much just be suggesting that we make Garou’s AP copying completely useless for every versus thread
Outside of matches using high 4-C garou of course

 

[Maitreya12]

I think I've pointed out pretty clearly why I disagree with your argument, this is like our sixth post back and forth and you're seriously still pretending that it doesn't exist...

What your response is to this specific question is simply claiming my argument is wrong because it’s a no limits fallacy. Which is why I repeat it since that’s all you’ve offered to me in regards to that specific question.

You did massively misunderstand that number, you can't keep claiming the two gaps are comparable when I blatantly point out that 4-A/3-A is 350 million times higher than the other gap

That's completely untrue, the varies is completely unrelated to the High 4-C and the possibly only exists because apparently some people don't agree with it being a real Gamma-Ray Burst or something, the 5-A rating is literally for Gamma-Ray Burst as well...

No I did not. Go reread my post, you can quote me if you’d like. I clearly gave the general range of his varied key, you can see it very much matches up with the difference between his 4A and 3A.

What are you talking about? His varied key is specifically due to the GRB. Some people say it doesn’t have the full power of a real one because it’s too small, and others say he does because of the narrator statement. Whatever the case may be, it’s on his profile. The 5A comes from Garou producing a black hole from the GRB. His varied high 4C comes directly from the same feat as his 5A rating, hence why his profile is varied like that. So by sententious the power mimicry difference is varied as well as Garou’s key is varied.

It doesn't matter what Garou believes when we factually know it to be untrue, Saitama isn't limitlessly strong, if anything this brings doubt onto Garou's statement when he grossly mislabels Saitama's power, how can we trust his own limitless statement when it's so blatantly incorrect for Saitama?

Because Saitama is an outside character that he has absolutely zero control over while his copying ability is a power in his direct arsenal that he has knowledge about, thereby making his statement about his own power more reliable than a statement in regards to someone else’s power. And in regards to that statement, Garou says his own copying ability is limitless.

Covered above so not going to repeat this just so you can in your next post

And I have covered your response which I’ll be honest with you….I really don’t get. I actually don’t understand the point you’re making there.

Abilities having limitations is something we assume by default...again, that applies to virtually every ability.

You have evidence Garou can copy AP stronger than his own, you don't however have any proof whatsoever that Garou can copy a gap hundreds of millions of times larger than what he ever copied.

Right, and I provided pretty clear limitations to Garou’s abilities.

I literally do though since he did thanks once again, to his varied keys. Which you just keep dismissing.

Which has nothing to do with the High 4-C rating

This doesn’t make any sense whatsoever. His high 4C rating comes from the exact same feat his 5A rating comes from, hence why his key is varied.

I've disproven the second part so I really have no idea why you keep repeating this, all you have is that Garou can copy people stronger than him, which applies to probably 99% of power mimicry users.

You have not disproven it. You’ve simply made a nonsensical claim so I don’t know why you’re repeating that. And no power mimicry doesn’t necessarily entail being able to copy the AP of their opponent. Power mimicry is often you just copied the abilities of the other person. Not their power per say.

Sigh... again, not repeating myself with the gap part, I've disproven it, until you refute my post disproving it I'm not going to keep discussing it.

You have not disproven anything you’ve simply made a nonsensical claim.

Irony given that it's me having to repeat myself because of you repeatedly saying the same thing in posts.

The things you repeat yourself over simply don’t make sense.

Answered above

Same.

I never proposed that at all, this just shows how much you've misunderstood my posts.

This just shows you don’t understand the logical train your arguments hold. If you make the claim that Garou can’t copy AP by the differences he’s done before, then why should there be any reason to put Garou being able to copy AP if you dismiss what he can copy by.

This is the fourth time you repeated this in this post...seriously...

Wow it’s almost like I’m responding to the things you say or something? Like what, you repeat yourself too.

That isn't what the varies is for, that comes after the High 4-C rating which is a possibly because apparently people don't believe it's a real Gamma-Ray Burst

No when I say “his key varies” I’m referring specially to how his key is listed as 5A and only possibly 4C. That means Garou’s profile has him at both 5A and 4C at the same time. Which means the difference if the power mimicry he copied varies by that amount as well since according to his profile, Garou copied 4A at both 5A and 4C. Some people not believing it has the full power of a GRB is what causes that variety in his key to begin with.

I've not just been saying NLF though, it's hilarious how you don't even understand the fallacy you've been spamming this entire time.

For me to commit a fallacy fallacy, I'd just have to claim NLF and not elaborate, which is hardly what I've done, I've very clearly detailed why I disagree with you, pointing out that it is a NLF as well isn't a fallacy fallacy because I'm not using that alone to invalidate your argument.

It’s gonna be really funny when you say this and proceed to misunderstand a fallacy you attempt to explain.

No, that is wrong. For you to commit the fallacy fallacy, you make the claim that my argument is wrong or invalid because it falls under a fallacy. Whuxh is literally your entire point. You can elaborate all you want but since you base your argument on the notion that my argument is invalid due to me committing a fallacy….is the fallacy fallacy.

That has been your whole argument thus far. In fact you tried to play on this argument by asking me if I thought someone with 10A can go to 3A with power mimicry. Which you used in a manner to suggest that the notion was absurd because it classified as a no limits fallacy to you. So yes you are most definitely committing the fallacy fallacy.

 

[KillerH]

I'm fine with this but not because the amount he can copy, but due to limiter/limitless reasons. If it wasn't there I would have disagreed even if garou jump from 10C to 4A in an instant.

 

[Vizer04]

I agree

 

[Darksmash]

Agree with this. Why would we assume that his copy ability has a limit anyway when nothing in the story suggested it?

 

[Kin201]

Why would we assume that his copy ability has a limit anyway when nothing in the story suggested it?

Because that's what NLF is. Nothing in the story suggested it doesn't matter because every ability is assumed to have a limit. But to prove that the limit to his copying is 3-A, this thread had to be made.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Agree with this. Why would we assume that his copy ability has a limit anyway when nothing in the story suggested it?

If it weren't for the limitless statements we wouldn't assume characters with power mimicry have no limits otherwise, a lot more characters would be able to reach any level or gainany ability which is NLF.

 

[The_Axiom_of_Virgo]

If it weren't for the limitless statements we wouldn't assume characters with power mimicry have no limits otherwise, a lot more characters would be able to reach any level or gainany ability which is NLF.

Exactly, this entire CRT is based solely on assumptions, no feats or statements that Garou's power mimicry can reach 3-A aside from "limitless" and the fact he eventually gets beaten by Saitama (who isn't 3-A last time I checked) pretty much seals the deal here also claiming Garou could reach Saitama's new level if he didn't get one-shot and Saitama let the fight continue onwards is yet another assumption btw.

Until I see 3-A evidence, no other arguments will convince me otherwise.

EDiT:
Anyways I can already predict how swimmingly this CRT will go as with most major CRTs for popular verses, so I'm going to bounce as to not clog the thread since @Purgy and @Maitreya are still debating each other.

Tag me when/if proof of Garou's power mimicry reaching 3-A is posted then I'll be more than happy to change my stance.

 

[Darksmash]

Because that's what NLF is. Nothing in the story suggested it doesn't matter because every ability is assumed to have a limit. But to prove that the limit to his copying is 3-A, this thread had to be made.

We blatantly see him copying things vastly above him. To suggest a limit to his copy ability is to suggest that there is an arbitrary level where it just randomly stops functioning which is pretty weird.

 

[Greatsage13th]

We blatantly see him copying things vastly above him. To suggest a limit to his copy ability is to suggest that there is an arbitrary level where it just randomly stops functioning which is pretty weird.

Pretty much yeah

 

[GodlyCharmander]

We see Garou copying Saitama, and then Saitama jumping to a higher tier when Garou gets on his previous level.

If the hax is to copy the opponents AP, why would we assume a limit when one's is not shown and downright implied to not exist? Of course, the limit wouldn't be an arbitrary value, but "infinite strength" or higher dimensional shit.
That I don't think you can claim Garou can copy.

 

[Tural2004]

I don't understand arguments about NLF or that he couldn't match Saitama. NLF thing is very unjustified seeing how Garou was breaking his limiter 5 or more transformations ago. And he couldn't match Saitama because he has already grown much stronger than the instance Garou copied him.

Anyway, I agree with CRT

 

[Unknownnah]

I agree with the thread.

 

[Therefir]

Do you want me to post the scan of Garou stating he can copy limitlessly?

About this scan, wasn't it proved that the limitless statement doesn't exist in the original Japanese translation? I remember there being no such a thing as a kanji saying "limitless" or anything of the like.

I'm neutral by the way.

 

[Maitreya12]

About this scan, wasn't it proved that the limitless statement doesn't exist in the original Japanese translation? I remember there being no such a thing as a kanji saying "limitless" or anything of the like.

I'm neutral by the way.

Idk. According to both the official viz translations and the cubari translation, they both use essentially the same word. Viz uses “infinite” and cubari uses “limitless.” So it seems like the context for the sentence is the same.

 

[Franako]

I agree

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

The problem with Opposition's arguements are they have inadvertently and indirectly proposed that Garou's power mimicry becomes degraded when Garou reaches his peak AP. Either that it can no longer copy AP or its completely negligible relative to his previous boost.

This CRT is primarily focused on determining a amplitude or potency of Power Mimicry, basically putting a number to it. How high of an AP can the ability copy.
Say if it can jump from X joules to Y joules of AP in T time(s), then the rough multiplier comes out to be Y/X say Z. Simple as that.
Just because Garou suddenly becomes 4A/3C in AP doesn't mean his power mimicry potency will drop from Z to zero or some arbitrarily doenplayed value. If Garou is 10C his power mimicry multiplier will still be same, if Garou was low2C or 1A his power mimicry multiplier would still be same.

Tbh, OP shot themself in the foot with throwing around "3A", when they should just made a simple thread about Power Mimicry Multiplier and called it a day.

And imo "limitless" is irrelevant to the whole debate. In my interpretation it Garou saying how frequently he can keep copying Saitama's power as he kept outevolving him. What matters is how high can power mimicry provide a boost in one use.

 

[Shey]

He copied someone stronger than himself yes, he didn't copy anyone even remotely close to 3-A though.

He said he could copy Saitama limitlessly, that isn't quite the same thing as having no limits because Saitama himself is only 4-A and there's no proof Saitama could become 3-A either.

A trillion times into 3-A is also a finite number, is that also fine for Garou to be able to copy with absolutely zero proof?

You'd have a point if all I said was "NLF" and didn't refute any of your arguments, but that's not exactly what I'm doing is it?

There's no intrinsic difference between 10-A and 3-A either so I guess literally any fodder character that has power mimicry can reach 3-A after extended periods of time without needing explicit proof?

The limit of Garou's copying is the highest thing he's copied, this applies to almost every power mimicry user and Garou has no reason to be an exception.

Garou being capable of endlessly increasing his strength by the gap between High 4-C and 4-A is baseless, there's absolutely no proof Garou can increase his power by a further 10^24 joules beyond what he already copied.

Exactly, this entire CRT is based solely on assumptions, no feats or statements that Garou's power mimicry can reach 3-A aside from "limitless" and the fact he eventually gets beaten by Saitama (who isn't 3-A last time I checked) pretty much seals the deal here also claiming Garou could reach Saitama's new level if he didn't get one-shot and Saitama let the fight continue onwards is yet another assumption btw.

Until I see 3-A evidence, no other arguments will convince me otherwise.

EDiT:
Anyways I can already predict how swimmingly this CRT will go as with most major CRTs for popular verses, so I'm going to bounce as to not clog the thread since @Purgy and @Maitreya are still debating each other.

Tag me when/if proof of Garou's power mimicry reaching 3-A is posted then I'll be more than happy to change my stance.

Disagree fra

 

[Darksmash]

This CRT is primarily focused on determining a amplitude or potency of Power Mimicry, basically putting a number to it. How high of an AP can the ability copy.
Say if it can jump from X joules to Y joules of AP in T time(s), then the rough multiplier comes out to be Y/X say Z. Simple as that.
Just because Garou suddenly becomes 4A/3C in AP doesn't mean his power mimicry potency will drop from Z to zero or some arbitrarily doenplayed value. If Garou is 10C his power mimicry multiplier will still be same, if Garou was low2C or 1A his power mimicry multiplier would still be same.

Tbh, OP shot themself in the foot with throwing around "3A", when they should just made a simple thread about Power Mimicry Multiplier and called it a day.

Power mimicry....multiplier? The ability copies the opponent's power level. It doesn't have a multiplier.

And imo "limitless" is irrelevant to the whole debate. In my interpretation it Garou saying how frequently he can keep copying Saitama's power as he kept outevolving him. What matters is how high can power mimicry provide a boost in one use.

It is very relevant considering in context it was Garou talking about endlessly copying Saitama.

 

[Agnaa]

For abilities that rely on joule values (copying strength, blocking attacks, reflecting attacks), we tend to say that characters can't go beyond their best feat unless there's a canonical explanation for how it works that seems like it would go beyond that.

That's also why we don't consider "durability negation" and "invulnerability" to work on 3-A attacks unless there's a good mechanism given for the ability that would logically allow that.

I may have missed something in my quick read of the thread, but I didn't see any explanation of how Garou's power copying works that would meet that definition, so I'm against this change.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

Power mimicry....multiplier? The ability copies the opponent's power level. It doesn't have a multiplier.

OP is treating it this way...

To go into numbers for a bit: Garou went from 10^36/10^44 joules according to his profile, to 10^64 joules in a single copying instance. That is a difference of 20-28 zeroes. And then from that point he only further increased his AP via copying which would result in to the point of being a near baseline 3C. Which means Garou copied up to a difference of 22-30 zeroes via his copying ability. For reference, 3A begins at 10^92 joules, which is a 28 zero difference from the Garou from before his exponential increase from Saitama. Which means that the difference in AP between Garou and 3A is within the reasonable range of multipliers Garou has on panel demonstrated to be able to copy.

Its not wrong tbh, Garou may be copying someone's AP, but its more or less a stat amp which is situational depending on whose AP Garou tries to copy.

 

[Darksmash]

OP is treating it this way...


Its not wrong tbh, Garou may be copying someone's AP, but its more or less a stat amp which is situational depending on whose AP Garou tries to copy.

It was because he copied his opponent's power level, not because it was a stat multiplier. OP was talking about the gap between his and his opponent's power level.

I may have missed something in my quick read of the thread, but I didn't see any explanation of how Garou's power copying works that would meet that definition, so I'm against this change.

Garou says that he will endlessly copy Saitama's power level(who was growing exponentially) so it shouldn't have an upper limit.

 

[Agnaa]

Garou says that he will endlessly copy Saitama's power level(who was growing exponentially) so it shouldn't have an upper limit.

That isn't a mechanism that explains how it's done. That's just a statement of its potency.

We do not consider statements like "It can endlessly withstand any attack no matter how strong" as evidence of invulnerability that can work on 3-As, since that's not a mechanism.

 

[GilverTheProtoAngelo]

It was because he copied his opponent's power level, not because it was a stat multiplier. OP was talking about the gap between his and his opponent's power level.

I didn't say it was, I said it worked like one. In the sense that there is a range of values over which Garou can copy above his own own weight. I am just comparing them over their range/limit.

 

[LNZO19]

This is under the assumption that the rate of his copying is consistent and can continue to any finite level. If this were the case then his rate of growth should've always kept up with Saitama and thus the fight would've been inconclusive because every time Saitama gets copied Garou would close the gap instantly.

However, Saitama got to such an absurdly high AP that Garou gave up copying since he didn't think he would make the difference. Not too sure about this one chief.

 

[Darksmash]

That isn't a mechanism that explains how it's done. That's just a statement of its potency.

We do not consider statements like "It can endlessly withstand any attack no matter how strong" as evidence of invulnerability that can work on 3-As, since that's not a mechanism.

Wym by mechanism? Saitama was growing exponentially so his hypothetical power level wouldn't have any limit and Garou still says he will continue copying him. Shouldn't that context be enough to argue it doesn't have an upper limit?

 

[Darksmash]

This is under the assumption that the rate of his copying is consistent and can continue to any finite level. If this were the case then his rate of growth should've always kept up with Saitama and thus the fight would've been inconclusive because every time Saitama gets copied Garou would close the gap instantly.

However, Saitama got to such an absurdly high AP that Garou gave up copying since he didn't think he would make the difference. Not too sure about this one chief.

Saitama outpaced Garou's copying ability, he didn't surpass it.

 

[Shmooply]

Garou says that he will endlessly copy Saitama's power level(who was growing exponentially) so it shouldn't have an upper limit.

I know little about OPM, and even less about Garou, so feel free to correct me on this, but isn't Garou a cocky guy with a massive ego? His personality and traits combined with him saying that he will "endlessly" copy Saitama's power just sounds like him overestimating his abilities rather than a valid statement of his power or anything.

 

[Agnaa]

Wym by mechanism? Saitama was growing exponentially so his hypothetical power level wouldn't have any limit and Garou still says he will continue copying him. Shouldn't that context be enough to argue it doesn't have an upper limit?

An explanation for how it happens.

"This character is invulnerable because their body is only affected by forces that they choose to be affected by." Is something that, by its explanation, would work on every 3-D attack no matter how strong.

"This sword negates durability because it shears through molecules on the atomic level." Is something that, by its explanation, would work on every 3-D character composed of atoms, no matter how durable.

"This ability can let you copy the strength of anyone because it warps reality to make the impossible possible, letting you destroy things that you aren't strong enough to." Is something that, by its explanation, would let a character be strong enough to punch 3-As.

A character just saying that it doesn't have a limit doesn't tell us the mechanism.

 

[SamanPatou]

What even is the proposal of this thread in the first place?
To make a vs thread rule just for him?

Because I don't see anything regarding changes or additions to his file.

 

[Darksmash]

I know little about OPM, and even less about Garou, so feel free to correct me on this, but isn't Garou a cocky guy with a massive ego? His personality and traits combined with him saying that he will "endlessly" copy Saitama's power just sounds like him overestimating his abilities rather than a valid statement of his power or anything.

Garou isn't usually an ooga booga fighter. He analyses the situation properly and thinks about his own abilities and his opponent's abilities without any bias. Even against Saitama he called him a monster and accepted his own shortcomings compared to him.

An explanation for how it happens.

"This character is invulnerable because their body is only affected by forces that they choose to be affected by." Is something that, by its explanation, would work on every 3-D attack no matter how strong.

"This sword negates durability because it shears through molecules on the atomic level." Is something that, by its explanation, would work on every 3-D character composed of atoms, no matter how durable.

"This ability can let you copy the strength of anyone because it warps reality to make the impossible possible, letting you destroy things that you aren't strong enough to." Is something that, by its explanation, would let a character be strong enough to punch 3-As.

A character just saying that it doesn't have a limit doesn't tell us the mechanism.

Yea we don't have the exact mechanism. But what if person A has an endlessly increasing power level which we know from context shouldn't have an upper limit(Saitama doesn't have a limiter) and person B makes an unbiased observation that no matter how strong he becomes he can match A's power level?

 

[Trax]

Because that's what NLF is. Nothing in the story suggested it doesn't matter because every ability is assumed to have a limit. But to prove that the limit to his copying is 3-A, this thread had to be made.

Quick question, so lets say I make my own manga and I have many statements of my character being completely immune to lets say light. He shows the ability of being immune to the light. Even if my character were to be village level and he was fighting someone who was universal but only uses elemental power. Does that immunity still apply or is it disregarded due to the huge difference in ap and dc.

 

[Shmooply]

Quick question, so lets say I make my own manga and I have many statements of my character being completely immune to lets say elements, yes im talking about natures elements and the elements of the periodic table. He shows the ability of being immune to the elements. Even if my character were to be village level and he was fighting someone who was universal but only uses elemental power. Does that immunity still apply or is it disregarded due to the huge difference in ap and dc.

Not the right thread, chief.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

For abilities that rely on joule values (copying strength, blocking attacks, reflecting attacks), we tend to say that characters can't go beyond their best feat unless there's a canonical explanation for how it works that seems like it would go beyond that.

That's also why we don't consider "durability negation" and "invulnerability" to work on 3-A attacks unless there's a good mechanism given for the ability that would logically allow that.

I may have missed something in my quick read of the thread, but I didn't see any explanation of how Garou's power copying works that would meet that definition, so I'm against this change.

If an opponent shows him their strength, he instantly copies it.
That's it.
That's the whole mechanic.
Setting an arbitrary limit, and saying "If X character has a power higher than Y, then the mechanic simply stop working" is very retrograded.

 

[Trax]

If an opponent shows him their strength, he instantly copies it.
That's it.
That's the whole mechanic.
Setting an arbitrary limit, and saying "If X character has a power higher than Y, then the mechanic simply stop working" is very retrograded.

I'm pretty sure he can copy any ap. But he can't copy every single hax and ability he sees.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'm pretty sure he can copy any ap. But he can't copy every single hax and ability he sees.

That's what the AP is thinking, yes.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Literally before Garou tanked those serious punches he copied Saitama. Which means there’s no evidence he was 4A to begin with since the only time he accomplished a 4A feat, he copied Saitama’s strength prior. Garou prior to that was only 5A/4C.

Which means he did directly adapt to something that would turn him into paste.

Well I disagree with your arguments

He was literally unable to keep up with saitama growth after a while, if his RE is instant like you claim, that will not be the case

 

[Diablo_]

I'm pretty sure he can copy any ap. But he can't copy every single hax and ability he sees.

He can copy any AP ?

 

[Diablo_]

Disagree this is NLF .