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Ganondorf Abilities Question

Fireblast966

Fireblast966

117
3
Wanted to ask this for a long time now but I wanted to question a few abilities Ganon has in his profile that seem a bit dubious to me. I like the guy but I feel like accuracy should be important here. I hope I can put those doubts to rest.

1) Time Stop: He got this ability from FSA . Now I admit that I haven't played this game so I might miss some details but from what I have seen it is Vaati who stops time, not Ganon: https://zelda.wikia.com/wiki/Frozen_Hyrule_(location). Not to mention, is this kind of time stop even combat applicable? This Ganon is also a different incarnation.

2) Power Null to Holy Powers: I feel like he got this power from Wind Waker. Ganon didn't nullify the Master Sword himself though, he killed the sages and blocked the prayers. I don't think that should count as direct power null.

3) Minor correction on his reasoning on his AP but Ganon's power wasn't sealed when he rotated the planet. Remember that TLink already drew out the Master Sword(and thus gave Ganon back his power) before he travels to the Forsaken Fortress. Shouldn't change much though.

4) Current Lifting Strength: Why does he scale to Link?
 
1) Yeah from the looks of it he shouldn't have Time Stop although my memory is hazy in regards to FSA so I might be wrong. But once my Ganon blog is finished he'll still have Time Manipulation anyway.

2) I don't know why his Power Nullification makes specific note of holy powers, but it doesn't really matter since he still has pretty broken Power Null.

3) Yeah the whole "Having his power sealed" was just something NOA added in the english translation, the Master Sword only kept his army of demons sealed. The feat was still very casual tho so as you said it wouldn't change much.

4) He's always been portrayed as having greater physical strength than most Links, so Class T is fine, in fact he should also have Class Z via telekinesis. Although I've been meaning to make a thread about the Class E stuff since the justifications for that is kinda weird.
 
@ Dust

On 4) I guess that is a valid reasoning altough I asked this question because it wasn't necessary to scale him to Link since he had his own feat, the castle lifting thing(since TK is also treated as lifting strength). And yeah scaling him to the 4 giants also seems weird to me since I don't think the 4 giants have any connection with Ganon.

Also on 2) could you maybe go into more detail on his Power Null on that?
 
4) The problem for his Class E isn't from scaling to the giants, that's fine, but it's the justification for the giants having Class E in the first place is what I find strange.

2) In ALTTP he was able to Power Null a bunch of unnatural disasters that resisted being nulled by other mages, and he did this with a weaker avatar of himself no less.
 
2) I can only recall Agahnim purging diseases so I thought disease manipulation although my memory is rusty. Speaking of Alttp, shouldn't Ganon get Mind Control?
 
Ah thats right.

So is it okay to edit the profile?

Getting rid of his time stop, minor tweaking on some inaccuracies and adding his Castle Feat(although does this need to be calc'd?) to his profile
 
Given that Ganon's Weakened key got changed to "Base", he should have these abilities:

Curse Manipulation, Death Manipulation(Cursed the Deku Tree with death), Biological Manipulation (Created flesh holes in Jabu Jabus stomach causing him to become ill), Life Creation (Created several electrical jellyfish within Jabu Jabu, arguably created Gohma and Barinade as they were linked to his curses on the Deku Tree and Jabu Jabu), Energy Manipulation (Energy Projection) and Resistance to madness manipulation

shifted from his High 5-A key. From Dust's blog.

Also his High 5-A key should have Regen negation up till Low Godly via Sword of Six Sages, which created a wound that remained even after he reshaped his body several times.

There's more, bhugt tghuisq comjphugter'sq keyboard3 sqhucksq asq yohu can sqee.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Also his High 5-A key should have Regen negation up till Low Godly via Sword of Six Sages, which created a wound that remained even after he reshaped his body several times. There's more, bhugt tghuisq comjphugter'sq keyboard3 sqhucksq asq yohu can sqee.
Click to expand...
No I disagree, he should not have regen negation. It's absurd to believe a random holy weapon could inflict wounds that can't be healed while he could regen multiple times from being cut down by the master sword, literally the most powerful holy weapon in the series. I'ts better to assume he couldn't regen it because of PIS or simply because he did not have the Triforce of power.

Plus the sword itself is holy, made for the kind of beings Ganon is, Evil, so presume it works on every kind of being is a bit of a stretch, especially since it has no other feats.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Given that Ganon's Weakened key got changed to "Base", he should have these abilities:
Curse Manipulation, Death Manipulation(Cursed the Deku Tree with death), Biological Manipulation (Created flesh holes in Jabu Jabus stomach causing him to become ill), Life Creation (Created several electrical jellyfish within Jabu Jabu, arguably created Gohma and Barinade as they were linked to his curses on the Deku Tree and Jabu Jabu), Energy Manipulation (Energy Projection) and Resistance to madness manipulation

shifted from his High 5-A key. From Dust's blog.

Also his High 5-A key should have Regen negation up till Low Godly via Sword of Six Sages, which created a wound that remained even after he reshaped his body several times.

There's more, bhugt tghuisq comjphugter'sq keyboard3 sqhucksq asq yohu can sqee.
Click to expand...


Everything looks good to me although I will wait for input from other members just to be sure.

Also if no one disagrees, I will edit the page to adjust the changes I asked in the OP.
 
Konaguna said:
No I disagree, he should not have regen negation. It's absurd to believe a random holy weapon could inflict wounds that can't be healed while he could regen multiple times from being cut down by the master sword, literally the most powerful holy weapon in the series. I'ts better to assume he couldn't regen it because of PIS or simply because he did not have the Triforce of power.

Plus the sword itself is holy, made for the kind of beings Ganon is, Evil, so presume it works on every kind of being is a bit of a stretch, especially since it has no other feats.
Click to expand...
If the sages wanted to kill him, they obviously needed a weapon that could bypass his regen. Just that. He never regenerated from the MS's slashes, I don't know what you're talking about. You are forgetting that the guy recreated his body several times but still couldn't get rid off the wound. Heck, even shape shifting didn't work.

The reason they used a holy weapon is because they wouldn't have been able to harm him with a normal weapon.
 
I am gonna be neutral on the sword thing for now. Btw, what is the lifting class of levitating Ganon's castle? Couldnt find any calcs on that, is it really class Z?
 
Lifting his castle was calced at Class G, the Class Z stuff I mentioned was due to him rotating the planet via his TK. HIM from the Powerpuff Girls has Class Z for a similar feat I believe.
 
Ah thats right. Although wasn't it decided that he rotated the planet simply because of magic? Or does that also count as TK?
 
TriforcePower1 said:
If the sages wanted to kill him, they obviously needed a weapon that could bypass his regen. Just that. He never regenerated from the MS's slashes, I don't know what you're talking about. You are forgetting that the guy recreated his body several times but still couldn't get rid off the wound. Heck, even shape shifting didn't work. The reason they used a holy weapon is because they wouldn't have been able to harm him with a normal weapon.
Click to expand...
What do you mean never regenerated from MS slashes? He regened not only in Twilight princess after being cut down as a boar, but also in A link to the past when he "died" as Aghanim, hell, even Calamity Ganon who is perhaps the weakest version of him was still able to regen from the MS, keep in mind he was weak, but the wounds were gone regardless.

Better explanation why he couldn't regenerate is due to him not having the ToP when he was stabbed, and because it was a dangerous weapon for him in that state. It could alo have been PIS for Ganon to have some weakness, because suffering a toll from some random holy weapon while easily brushing off what the MS did really makes no sense.

It makes no sense for SOSS to have regen negation when MS is far stronger and Ganon could still regen from it more than once.

I agree with everything that was agreed except for this, it is way to iffy and just giving it regen negation in such circumstances does not sit well with me
 
Also while we're at Ganon, why does he have resistance to information analysis? If it's because of his Tennis fight in Ocarina of Time then that isn't really a resistance, because Navi just couldn't get close due to the wave of darkness, if that wasn't the case then IDK.

One last thing I'm curious as to why Ganon has resistance to perception manipulation? I get some Gerudo from MM can see through it, but does Ganon have anything to back up that he is on par with trained gerudos, because he's... well, different, he's a sorcerer unlike most Gerudo who are melee, so how much training he underwent is questionable for me tbh
 
Konaguna said:
One last thing I'm curious as to why Ganon has resistance to perception manipulation? I get some Gerudo from MM can see through it, but does Ganon have anything to back up that he is on par with trained gerudos, because he's... well, different, he's a sorcerer unlike most Gerudo who are melee, so how much training he underwent is questionable for me tbh
Click to expand...


In Wind Waker last fight, base Ganondorf without the ToP actually fights just like the Gerudo Guards except he is:

Much more agile(jumps absurdly high)

Much quicker with his sword strikes

and blocks more attacks than the Gerudos. No hint of magical enhancement in this fight either.

There is also potrayal: A Gerudo Guard mentions how Ganondorf and Link are the only men who could impress her. Not to mention, the Gerudo probably wouldn't accept a "weak" king since they respect strength.

There is also the fact that Ganon's sword skills surpasses WW Link(who is implied to have sword training from Orca and use some advanced sword techs) since he can't beat Ganondorf without Zelda. So it is quite clear that Ganondorf had some kind of training and that he is physically superior to all the Gerudos. Therefore resistance to perception manipulation is fine for me since he is a trained Gerudo member as well.
 
Resistance to information analysis is also fine, not because of the wave of darkness but because when Navi finally does analyze him, she is not able to find a weakness even though she was able to tell with Phantom Ganon. When you hit Ganondorf with the light arrow, Navi can approach and analyze Ganondorf.

As Ganon, Navi can't find infos about him as well even though he has a giant glowing tail as his obvious weak spot. I don't think Navi is stupid, since she can analyze and deliver info of every other boss (except Volvagia).
 
Konaguna said:
What do you mean never regenerated from MS slashes? He regened not only in Twilight princess after being cut down as a boar, but also in A link to the past when he "died" as Aghanim, hell, even Calamity Ganon who is perhaps the weakest version of him was still able to regen from the MS, keep in mind he was weak, but the wounds were gone regardless.

Better explanation why he couldn't regenerate is due to him not having the ToP when he was stabbed, and because it was a dangerous weapon for him in that state. It could alo have been PIS for Ganon to have some weakness, because suffering a toll from some random holy weapon while easily brushing off what the MS did really makes no sense.

It makes no sense for SOSS to have regen negation when MS is far stronger and Ganon could still regen from it more than once.

I agree with everything that was agreed except for this, it is way to iffy and just giving it regen negation in such circumstances does not sit well with me
Click to expand...
Regenerationn negation also means that inflicted wounds don't disappear even don't heal even when the character "triggers" the Regenerationn. Link never hit Agahnim with the MS, he only reflected his attacks and becoming a mindless blob of malice is far from not having any wound. Link already has regen negation via MS as he killed Hanon in TP without him regenerating back to life.

Though this is never stated nor implied anywhere in the series, if anything it's the opposite. NES!Ganon was just a shadow before he got the ToP and managed to become Ganon again.

Ganon has Low-Godly in base though, as it's an ability of his malice, and if the sages wanted to kill him without Calamity appearing, they NEEDED a Regenerationn negation weapon.
 
@Fireblast

I suppose those two resistances are fine then as they are

@Triforce

No he doesn't have Low godly in base Tf? Both times in ALTTP or TP he had at least one piece. Sages didn't know a thing about him having the triforce. And in BOTW he has to use Demise's power to do that.

He didn't turn into a blob :/ he turned into his beast form coated with Demise powa, he had no visible injuries whatsoever.

You do know that some characters can only regenerate from something when they reached that certain point. Not all characters who suffer wounds that are inferior to their regen can just regen anything inferior. Some characters have to actually be damaged equally to their regen for them to be able to regenerate.

That's headcannon, Calamity wasn't even a thing back then, It's way better to conclude that they killed him with a holy weapon because he was not as powerful as he would have usually been if he had the ToP, because the ToP was literally the core subject of that cutscene. The Execution would have been a success if divine powa wouldn't have intervened. Unless you can prove to me that the SOSS can negate regen from something else or that Ganon's ToP was within him dormant somehow, then I'm against SOSS having regen negation. Because right now that would make it way more impressive than the master sword, as not even the most holy weapon had the power to prvent him fully regenerating while a severly inferior one did.
 
Okay, let's try to think this back from the start.

Ganon was going to be executed, was impaled by the sages, returns in TP, in his boss fight he becomes Twilight particules to possess Zelda, recreates his body from that but he can't get rid of the wound, recreates back his body from his soul after his body is completely destroyed (somehow given that Link only attacked his wound...), and he still can't heal that wound despite recreating his whole body. Contradicting that is contradicting the game. It's safe to assume that he can't heal the wound, as otherwise he'd have done it when he reshaped his body.

That leaves two possibilities:

1. The Sword can inflict wounds that don't heal. This makes sense in the context of the verse, as we have other weapons such as the Master Sword or the Silver Arrows that are capable of doing similar things.

2. Ganon can't heal wounds dealt before obtaining the Triforce. Which is strange given that nothing even remotely similar happens in the verse.

Here you have it. Which of the two options requires less assumptions?

Two last things. MS has regen negation from effectively killing TP Ganon as he wasn't able to regen (he was struggling to get up even before losing the ToP) and for killing Ganon in ALBW when he had both the ToP and the ToW.

I don't have to prove that the Sword works against being different from Ganon. YOU're the one who must prove it doesn't work against other guys.
 
Under Normal circumstances I'd have to prove it but not here, because it doesn't have feats of damaging anything else's except link but that's a game mechanic cuz yeah....

Problem is, it's a holy weapon made for evil beings, so it works especially well against them, and it could just be that evil beings can't regenerate from it.

I'd much rather assume he can't heal wounds prior to the Triforce, I mean every time I remember a fight with him his whole body usually gets jacked up, this sword merely impaled, so maybe the damage on his body was too low to be regened and the fact he was stabbed pre ToP.

Besides he does eventually regen his wound In FSA, so rather than it being regen negation I should think of it as Ganon being struck at the worst possible moment

He wasn't really struggling to get up, your overestimating, it was for drama, with slow pacing and all, his if he had struggled to get up he would have been shaking or trembling or something like that.
 
Tbh, I'd really appreciate if someone else gave his input on this matter as it would help tremendously
 
I think it's like there's nothing proving that, not that you don't have to prove it...

Though that's not always true. FS never showed any kind of regen negation, for example.

Though, it doesn't exactly make sense for him to be capable of reshaping and recreating his whole body, but only as it was when he obtained the ToP, especially considering that Ganon is in full control of his regen, as he outright regenerated into a boar.

Reincarnation is more like his soul going into a whole new body, not recreating hos body. This immortality type 6 (which he currently lacks as well... Yes, reincarnation is type 6), not regen.
 
For now, I personally don't think the sword should get regen negation. If it did, Link shouldn't be able to heal when he gets hit, unless you want to tell me regen=/=healing which is a little strange to me.

Although I can see where Triforce is coming from but couldn't his wound not healing be just an after effect of the holy element of the sword since holy is ganon's kryptonite? Might or might not argue in favor for this.
 
1. We technically don't see Link getting hit by Ganon's Sword. Most likely the battle just followed the pattern: Ganon attacks, Link dodges, Ganon attacks again, Link blocks it, strength contest, Link wins and harm Ganon. Repeat till Ganon loses (Obviously oversimplified). Also, Ganon also used kicks in the last fight.

2. The Four Sword, despite being a holy weapon didn't negate Ganon's regen in FSA though.
 
1) I dont think there is a canon way of how the fight went. For all we know, Ganon could have overpowered Link in the strength contest as well or Link just beat him by chipping away at him without a single sword lock. That's besides the point though.

2) Could you show me where he regen'd in that game?
 
Ganon's emotions/soul (malice) have shown to be capable of regenerating him, so it's something every incarnation of Ganon has they all share the same soul/Demise's emotions.
 
Yes I know but has he actually regene'd when the FS struck him? I haven't played the game sadly so if you could point me to a cutscence, or part of the game where this happens, that would be solid proof for your case.
 
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