Gahkthun/Inganock Revisions: Part 2- Arts and Cracking

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I was initially going to touch on Cracking in a much more broad sense including hax layers, but decided against that until i have read all the material, so for now this will only address stuff shown up until Gahkthun.

​

Cracking​

Reality Warping​

The Cracking Effect is a formula which can twist the very fabric of the world (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 1)

Subjective Reality​

Wasn't going to touch on this until the broader/more expansive Cracking CRT, but i found something very interesting. It's stated that Cracking can cause the impossible to occur, and that by manipulating the Cracking formula in their mind (Ourai no Gahkthun, Encyclopedia), their users can produce a variety of effects.

Additionally on the Official Tyrhhia website this is stated:

現象数式』とは、認識と思考によって世界を書き換える力です。
多くの病を癒し、銃火器をも越える破壊力を発現させることも可能です。
とある特殊な数式を理解し、行使する事で、現実を書き換えるのだと言われています。

魔法とさえ見紛うこの力は、
スチームパンク世界における大半の地域では存在さえ知られていませんが、
閉鎖された異形都市インガノックにおいては例外的に、
「変異した脳を持つ者だけが扱う稀少な特殊技術」として知れ渡っています。


Which translates to:

The Phenomenon Equation (Cracking Effect) has the power to rewrite the world through cognition and thought.
It can heal many illnesses and even unleash destructive power surpassing firearms.
It's said that, by understanding a certain special equation, one can rewrite reality.

This power, which had even been mistaken for magic is not known in many parts of the Steampunk World with the exception of the enclosed fantasy city of Inganock, where it is known as a "rare and unique technique only those with mutated brains can use".

Again backs up the earlier statement, Cracking rewrites the world through cognition and thought.

Law Manipulation​

Cracking can bend and twist every law of nature (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2)

Information Manipulation (Type 2), and Conceptual Manipulation (Type 2)​

It is again repeated that Cracking can reshape the world and its laws, however the interesting thing here is it's stated that it's a power which can alter and rewrite the numbers that enumerate the world (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2).

I initially just thought it was info manipulation type 2, but from discussion, apparently numbers would be considered a type 2 concept in this case?

In any case it is stated one more time that numbers compose the world (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2). When Tesla was fading away, it was also stated that data composes his mind (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2). It is also stated by GK that his Cracking rules the sky itself (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2)

GK's hands which tear through all things; real, illusory, physical and metaphysical (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2), is made possible due to the Golden Eyes and Cracking (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2).

As can be seen with Golden Eye uses like Mary, the Golden Eyes power is in seeing through things, the entry in Gahkthun's Encyclopedia says as much, ie that it sees the truth of everything, this metaphysical ability imo clearly works like this: GK can destroy anything, because he can see it.

In short the destructive power is in Cracking, and not the Golden Eyes, side note about GK down below in the next section.

Continuing on this section though, Messengers/White Ones in Sona-Nyl who are Cracking Beings were also stated to do metaphysical damage (Sona Nyl, Chapter 1), i am not yet up to date with Sona-Nyl, so not going to touch on this too much, though i am sure other fans will easily provide this evidence if asked.

I am overall pretty neutral to type 2 concept manipulation for now, since i haven't yet seen all the evidence.

Going back to Inganock and type 2 information manipulation though, it was also stated that Gii can use the Phenonmenon Equation/Cracking to rewrite the body's code (Sekien no Inganock, Chapter 1).

Gii sees the equation (Sekien no Inganock, Chapter 1) which makes up a person, and then can change that equation via Cracking, ie changing a 1 into a 3 (Sekien no Inganock, Chapter 1)

GK Golden Eye Addition​

It kind of slipped my mind, and kind of didn't, GK is the Golden King, King of All that Glitters etc because he has literally been consuming the golden eyes of sacrifices (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2) offered to him for decades.

I didn't suggest anything for him originally cause he hasn't really done anything with his golden eyes. Users of them vary ie we don't see info analysis from the Supreme Six, Ati from Inganock can't predict the future or see across universes etc.

Also even with Mary, the preeminent golden eye user, she didn't immediately show all her golden eye feats, and even with Gahkthun's Supreme Six, it wasn't until the last chapter, they showed the ability to remember things they forgot like Mary.

You can see why i ignored this before for GK, but if his hands which tears through the very fabric of reality (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2) and all creation (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2), is in part made possible due to his golden eyes, he should have some sort of Enhanced Senses.

I think this scan below also makes a good case for it, the hands range is such that Tesla couldn't escape them no matter where he fled, i think it's reasonable to assume this is in part due to GK being able to see/track Tesla wherever he went

Arts​

The Nature of Arts​

Arts are stated to work off the Cracking Effect (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 1), albeit limited, called a party trick (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 1) in comparison. Arts are stated (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 9) to be a sliver of the divine power, an expression of the Cracking Effect (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 9)

Art Users/Covenators are limited (Ourai no Gahkthun, Encyclopedia) to 1 supernatural ability, while Crack Effect wielders in Inganock can use a wide range of powers.

The first scan i posted under law manipulation in Cracking explains that Cracking can twist and bend all laws, the very next thing that's said is that Arts are parlor tricks in comparison (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 2) Cracking, all the stuff about laws, and equations which make up the world is it's true form.

So even though Arts are a sliver of Cracking i don't think they scale to the Law Manipulation, Information/Mathematics Manipulation or Conceptual Manipulation, because that differentiation between the two was made.

However it's still a sliver of Cracking, i think Limited Physics Manipulation works seeings as it's repeatedly stated in Inganock how Cracking can warp and control physics (Sekien no Inganock, Chapter 8)

Resistance to Law Manipulation​

Arts lie beyond the reach of all science, beyond the bounds of logic itself (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 3)

Obviously this scales to Cracking too

Ironic how GK is also talking about science this science that, when his precious Cracking is beyond science

Unconventional Resistance to Power Absorption​

When GK grants someone an art, it's stated their gift (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 9) lies within the mind itself (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 9)

This i think is an Art only thing as GK basically forces the ability onto art users

Supreme Six/Cracking Field​

Most of the Art Users on the wiki are the Supreme Six, and in addition to their arts they have the ability to drag their sacrifice to GK into the Cracking Field which exists within a rift in reality (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 1), and is formed via Cracking (Ourai no Gahkthun, Chapter 1).

That's literally all this Cracking ability does, just a means GK granted onto the Six to bring the sacrifice directly to him, hence why only those with golden eyes are normally allowed in (Ourai no Gahkthun, Final Chapter Part 1)

Seeing as it's limited i propose the Supreme Six get Limited Law Manipulation, Information/Mathematics Manipulation, Conceptual Manipulation etc via Cracking Field

 

[Rabbit2002]

Not really understand exactly where the concept of type 2 is

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Looks good to me.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Not really understand exactly where the concept of type 2 is

Apparently being something which composes the entire world makes it a type 2 concept

Forgot if it was @TISSG7Redgrave or @RM97 who insisted that was the case, i am neutral on it.

More details exist in Sona Nyl and Karsheel, which apparently confirm this, so it really doesn't have to be implemented now.

But if they want to argue for it go ahead i guess.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

agree

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

When a guy who existed from a time when science was still alchemy, actually even longer cuz it's confirmed he's from a time before humanity even showed up, still firmly believes in MUH SCIENCE.

Most of these look good.

Concept hax, probably wait on the others to see what they say. Some of the scans @Mycroft_er and @TISSG7Redgrave Mentioned stuff about the Cracking thing from Sona Nyl like it being able to warp the very laws of physics and that of reality/the world. Karashrer also cements it in the few times it was mentioned like being a power that "distorts matter and phenomenon" so there's that too.

IDK about GK's scaling of the Golden Eye's though. I mean, he clearly has numerous of them for him to use it at least in the same matter as all existing (known ones we know from TL'd works) that have used it but the most that's been stated to be in usage was to bolster the power of his Cracking alongside the Crimson Eyes/Sekime. If he also scales to the others with it, I guess only to the Council Members and/or Ati? Mary maybe too, but IDK. Never really thought about him having more scaling usage besides his Ultrathotep form.

On the matter of Arts, yeah I wouldn't give all of their applications to the relevant Artists/Art Users beyond physics manip.

The most blatant differences are that they're GIVEN the usage of Cracking and only have one singular usage, while Cracking users like those in Inganock are capable of drawing on its power to do a bunch of more stuff if they tried hard enough because of their mutated brain condition or whatever.

Rosenkreuz is the most obvious because all of the Arts we see in VN and even in Novel Anthology are of his own Cracking. Gii can do a bunch of stuff with his even if it's mostly for healing and the like. Crack Chrome has access to like 3 different offensive powers as well. Although those are probably the more extensive examples as Kerkan only had heat power for his (or ice for his Celephis counterpart, but that's besides the point).

 

[AdamVhenJP]

I Agree

 

[Rabbit2002]

Apparently being something which composes the entire world makes it a type 2 concept

Law, Concepts, and Information are fundamental aspects that govern all of reality, but doesn't it depend on description to determine what kind of fundamental aspect it is? In this case, it's described as data so it's more like information than a concept or both

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

@Qliphoth_Bacikal I think scaling him to the lowest levels of Golden Eye Users is fine, it's when it's gets to Mary that i think it might be reaching, due to how much superior she is than others. Would help if we had a gauge for what past council members/sacrifices could do or if the present ones did anything besides regaining lost memories, but we don't have that

@Rabbit2002 That's what i thought to begin with, but we can wait and see if the others will defend it. That said if Cracking as a power lets you do metaphysical damage, atm it should probably still be type 3 concept manipulation.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Celestial_Pegasus Scaling to at least Ati and/or Council Members is fine, yeah. Even though I kinda think it's odd because of the one time he used it was to bolster his MUH Science (Ultrathotep).

Although I kinda can see that his hands being able to "track" anything is probably also cuz of the many eyes he had to see where Tesla would try to run and avoid his attacks from and all. That and his ever-expanding Cracking Field that's at least planet and possibly further helped with it.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Now that you mention it yes, makes sense why Tesla said he wouldn't be able to dodge the hands, unless he escaped the Cracking Field, which was planetary at that point, the eyes would track him, and then the hands would hit wherever Tesla was.

GK probably should get enhanced senses then.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

I agree too.

Spoiler: Laws laws law deez nuts

To mention the law hax thing its the fact cracking beings like the messengers are the laws of the underworld (which was an illusion essentially) and the moment they die, the underworld vanishes completely except for Lily (because Edison let her), Edison and his side chicks. Edison also notes the only real thing were the messengers and formed them as the deaths of everyone in NY (cuz he's a prick)

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Celestial_Pegasus

Pretty much, when you put it like that. It's also why I even feel iffy with the scaling Golden Eyes thing since, again, the one time he actually used the eyes he spent decades gathering is just for Ultrathotep where, even just using the basic known function of "seeing everything", that's probably what he used them for. You can even see the part where it would be the palms in the branch hands that also have the eyes.

Enhanced senses work then in this case and even that's also a nice ability.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Yea, enhanced senses is a safe bet, let me update the op.

After that i guess we wait for staff, only contention so far seems to be concept manipulation.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Time to call up some staff, ideally want this done by the weekend, so i can get to the last Gahkthun revision about Ap

@LordGriffin1000 @Damage3245 @Theglassman12

 

[Theglassman12]

Not really seeing concept hax here, just looks like more info type 2 hax. The rest looks fine.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Nobody is defending it, so we can scrap that for now.

The mentions of metaphysical destruction are interesting, but seeing as i am not up to date, not going to argue it.

That said it could result in some changes, if GK's hands don't do type 2 conceptual damage, but instead type 3, him and Tesla, shouldn't have high godly regen, but that's a topic for another day, after I get all the info that's out there about Cracking, cause there is still a lot more.

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@Celestial_Pegasus I’d give it about another month til you finish up Sona Nyl.

You’ll see a lot of it if you play the minigames.

But yeah, it can be ignored for now. It’s there, it’s just a whole lot of it to show the metaphysical damage stuff lol.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Ok, so everything here is good except concept hax, unless someone wants to hop in to argue it, it's rejected for now.

Won't apply anything till the weekend. Though speaking of that applying this means applying it to Inganock cast too, and haven't yet applied the accepted Inganock Cracking stuff to Gahkthun either.

Sounds like a pain, might just not apply anything until a Cracking page is ready to go.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Overall looks okay but Information/Conceptual Hax isn't my thing so I can't speak on those.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

?

M has had type 1 concept manipulation for years.

But anyway this thread seems to be accepted sans concept manipulation, at this point editing like over a dozen pages with multiple abilities, which are just going to be condensed into 1 seems like a waste of time.

So until the Cracking page is ready, not editing in any Cracking stuff.

So far we have Cracking accepted as: Mathematics Manipulation, Physics Manipulation, Reality Warping, Subjective Reality, Law Manipulation, Information Manipulation (Type 2), and Resistance to Law Manipulation.

To be continued in the next one, which will add Matter Manipulation, and i don't know what else right now.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

That was my bad though I would like to say smth about cracking.

Spoiler: I ain't going down that easily.

When Lily was about to get erased by Edison, Alan's cracking which he took from Edison (hidden in A) allowed Lily to reestablish her existence using the Psalm (that she created on the spot) and used it to drag herself back up as she was falling so she DOES interact with Edison. And Edison scales to M in everything and has more. Idk if tht could mean type 1 concept but she does at least interact with him.

Edison's body

Cracking which turns her Psalm allowing her to come back

Lily dragging herself back up with cracking

 

[Qliphoth_Bacikal]

@TISSG7Redgrave While that's really solid stuff from Sona Nyl, I think the main thing that was being initially argued for is the metaphysical damage stuff. Though IDK if I'm looking at it right here also, but it is relevant for at least a future Sona Nyl CRT.

As for the metaphysical damage stuff, we can take a look at the First Messenger/Angel/whatever it's preferred.

Spoiler: Pressure Powah

The first Angel is said to have the power to "rend the air itself", that which can "tear space" apart.





Sounds simple, right? A power that can tear things apart including space itself/or using spatial distortion to break things.

Well, it would. But this Angel does far more than that.

But wait, there's MOAR.

Spoiler: Truth of Vera's Fate

In the minigames for the visual novel of Sona Nyl, we're introduced to some newspaper clippings that details the destruction of New York (~~When will New York EVER not get railed lol?~~) and in that minigame, you're told to read it as they are the "truth", but you uncover the "real truth" by following certain lines told by various characters that talk about the city's final day in its destruction, to put it shortly enough.

Verazanno Bridge Minigame. (Start at 12:55, end at 14:30 ish. You do not have to watch the whole video, FYI).

If you don't watch it, that's fine. In any case, the first clipping explains how Verazanno was destroyed by either a bomb or earthquake. But clicking it uncovers what was actually said, which was that it was "torn itself apart".

(Before Edit, After Edit)

Going further, you're reading onto the bridge that yes, it was physically destroyed. But click on that passage, it reads that not only "physical annihilation" but also "metaphysical destruction" had occurred.

(Before Edit, After Edit)

Once again, the last one brings up what the first said about the bridge either being destroyed by some earthquake or bomb. But the real truth says otherwise...

(Before Edit, After Edit)

So in essence, the Angel mentioned here does spatial destruction that not only destroys things on a physical level but also on a metaphysical level as well.

The other Angels would scale to this since they way they attack people and things are also done more exotically/esotorically as well.

Basically, this is where this whole "metaphysical" stuff for damage wise things happen with Cracking.

Which I think GK would be able to do since what he does is ultimately all Cracking.

IDK if it's enough, but getting a lot of scans that would, in essence, tell more or less the same thing is a headache to do and find throughout the game.

 

[TISSG7Redgrave]

That is true though I'm just adding there is concept mani/interaction with cracking thx to some things in the spoilers. There is also the fact Tesla did apparently try to steal M's black (though he doesn't use cracking) but he had to interact with the guy's physiology in that sense.

Edit: @Celestial_Pegasus remind me but isn't Tesla the Thunderbird now? And he dependent on radiance which wouldn't that give him type 2 concept? Just wondering but its been a while since I checked Gahtkhun

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

He isn't really the Thunderbird, just cursed by it.

Kinda obvious seeing as Old Ones like the Thunderbird are formless entities, while Tesla is physical.

Radiance is like vaguely implied to be some sort of determination, if you want to say he can come back from being erased metaphysical due to the Radiance of others, its a kind of type 2 abstract ability I guess.

Anyway interaction feats don't count as the thing being interacting with ie Tesla doesn't get type 1 concept manipulation for interacting with M, it's just NPI.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

Anyway this thread has served its purpose, don't see why it should still be open, discussions about Tesla and Cracking can happen in the discussion thread.