Gagamaru change

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Attack Reflection should be Damage Transferal.

 

[Antvasima]

That is true. Feel free to adjust the page accordingly.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Medaka also needs the ability listed in general, can you unlock her profile?

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Tell me here when you are done.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Done, you can close this now.

Edit: Or not.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Would the same note need to stay on the page then? Attack Reflection makes sense to have something like that since that interpretation of Encounter involves the attacks of the enemy, but Damage Transferal has to do with the state of Gagamaru. Whether its a City Block level attack at FTL speed or a MCB attack at Hypersonic speed that turns him to mush, it shouldn't matter since he is just making that damage not on him anymore. That is the natural consequence of this change

 

[Antvasima]

What does the note say?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

"Beware the No-Limit Fallacy. While Encounter has demonstrated no limits or exceptions, except Scar Dead, the strongest and fastest attacks it was demonstrated or reliably stated to work against where Multi-City Block level attacks performed at the Speed of Light. It can not be reliably argued that Encounter would work against vastly more powerful attacks."

But the difference now is that Damage Transferal is an offensive hax with a restorative application, where as, Attack Relfection was a defensive hax with some offensive application

 

[Antvasima]

Well, to start with, do you think that we should keep or revert the change, and if so, why?

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

I do think it is more accurate to call it damage transferal. I remember there is a line about Gagamaru being like a portal that damage passes through, which pretty clearly point to damage being transfered and not relfected. If the damage were simply being relfected and not transfered then it probably would not bypass durability. I also definitely do think the note should be removed with this new interpretation of Encounter, since it has gone from being defensive hax to offensive hax, and it now works on a metric that shouldn't really matter how much force was used to turn gagamaru into a paste, just that he is in fact paste, and with Encounter, now something else is paste in his place

 

[TriforcePower1]

PaChi, sometimes I regret listening to you and becoming a Medaka Box fan as now I care about this stuff.


Scar Dead (I don't remember her name) explicitly states that the energy still passes through Gagamaru's body. Which means that if you give him more energy than what he has shown to deflect, he may still be overwhelmed.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Her name is Shibushi. Also, he isn't deflecting if the energy is just passing through his body

 

[TriforcePower1]

Thanks.

Yes, but if it's passing through his body that automatically implies a limit. A hole of a sinker cannot make 3 tons of water drain efficiently. Similarly, too much energy may be too much for Gagamaru to transfer to somewhere else and as such he will still receive the energy he's not able to send away.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Well, the energy thing seems to be more of a metaphor, since Shibushi just says it's the damage itself. It's very speculative on your part that he works like a tap or something, since that isn't how he is portrayed at all in the story

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with the relevant notes being removed or modified. I will open the Medaka Kurokami page for you to edit again.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Medaka never had such a note on her page, so I'll just go ahead and remove it from Gagamaru's. I'll also change Iihiko's page to reflect the changes to Gagamaru's

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The damage passing through actually means the opposite. That there is no clear limit, because it's just going past him, not sticking on him. There would be a limit if his body were to hold the damage first then send it or in attack reflection because he would in a sense be applying the same amount of force to send it back.

In this case it's useless, no matter how much energy, it will just go past him, not stick to him. Think of putting a ball below a tap and have water running. It wouldn't blow the ball cus the water is just flowing past him, now think what would happen if we put it in the middle of the amazon river. There are several tons of water running every second past the ball, an insane amount of water comparatively to the tap case, however the water still flows past it.

The same cannot be said in either case if the ball were to hold the energy inside him. The ball would eventually blow up or saturate, becoming unable to contain any more. That's because the water is not flowing past it, but in it.

Another example would be my boi Ikki Kurogane, he could tank blows several levels of magnitude above what he should be capable of without a scratch, because he used a form of martial arts so that the energy flows directly past him, and doesn't stick to him. If energy doesn't stay, it doesn't deal damage.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Just to be clear tho, this obviously does get the line drawn at the standard place offensive hax do

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Just to be clear tho, this obviously does get the line drawn at the standard place offensive hax do

You mean dimensionality?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Even electricity lines can break if you had the energy of a thunder go through it. And it only passes through.

But whatever. The moment he goes against a popular character someone better than me will probably point this out.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Even electricity lines can break if you had the energy of a thunder go through it. And it only passes through.
But whatever. The moment he goes against a popular character someone better than me will probably point this out.

That's for some other reasons of physics and stuff. It doesn't break because too much voltage, it breaks cus too much heat which was caused by the voltage but not the same thing. So due to passing through it any amount is ok because it's passing through. But Intensity = tension/resistance. If the voltage (tension) is too high, then the intensity of the electricity will be too high. But increasing intensity will increase the heat, the heat then ends up melting the wires. So it breaks because of this chain reaction, not directly because of the energy, it's because of the relation to voltage and resistance. In this case, the body proves no resistance, otherwise the body would be hurt no matter how small the damage, a little bit of that damage would still damage the body.

Or if you want the example with water. Let's imagine a ring. Obviously 1 ton of water cannot pass through it in a second, but that is a fault of volume being too high. Comparing it would be like saying, Gagamaru reflects all the energy coming from the sun which is not true, he only reflect the part of the energy that hits his body. Similarly if we have 1 ton of water but compress it to a size where it's radius is smaller than the ring then it would have no problem passing by. A potentially infinite amount of water could pass through that ring (with radius of the volume smaller than the ring but any density if we were to compress it). That is what 5-B punches are. They are not literally hitting you with a planet, but with a single punch something (that can pass through the ring) that is much smaller, but is a lot denser in terms of energy.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It's a metaphor anyway, he is transfering damage, not energy. It doesn't really matter if he is being turned to paste by a city block attack at MFTL speeds, or a city level attack at hypersonic speeds, it just matters that he is paste, and now something else is paste instead.

 

[DontTalkDT]

The note should stay.

There still is no known mechanism that implies that he won't just die before his skill manages to push the attack away if you punch him hard or fast enough.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

There are Shibushi's statements.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

The note should stay.
There still is no known mechanism that implies that he won't just die before his skill manages to push the attack away if you punch him hard or fast enough.

He would have died from Hinokage's barrage. He didn't get a scratch though. I don't think speed is a problem.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

Funnily enough, Hinokage being able to move Gagamaru proves that it's damage, not force, that he sends elsewhere.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

The note should stay.
There still is no known mechanism that implies that he won't just die before his skill manages to push the attack away if you punch him hard or fast enough.

He is like a portal for damage, that is the mechanism. He is similar to Valentine in that regard.

 

[DontTalkDT]

He would have died from Hinokage's barrage. He didn't get a scratch though. I don't think speed is a problem.

Which just means his ability pushes damage away at a rate higher than Hinokages barrage produces it. There are characters faster and stronger than Hinokage.

 

[DontTalkDT]

He is like a portal for damage, that is the mechanism. He is similar to Valentine in that regard.

Except he isn't a portal. Portals work by manipilating space, his power doesn't.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

Key word there was like. I remember one of the ways they explained his power is that it was like a portal, which is the mechanism. Since the damage doesn't travel either, it would be something like teleportation. You couldn't even call NLF with the amount of force that is being exerted on him, because he isn't redirecting the force, he is only redirecting the damage they do, which is not something you can quantify

 

[Firephoenixearl]

He would have died from Hinokage's barrage. He didn't get a scratch though. I don't think speed is a problem.

Which just means his ability pushes damage away at a rate higher than Hinokages barrage produces it. There are characters faster and stronger than Hinokage.

Why would he push away damage at a certain rate rather than instantly? Seems a bit weird to assume he "sends" the damage rather than instantly transferr it.

 

[DontTalkDT]

Key word there was like. I remember one of the ways they explained his power is that it was like a portal, which is the mechanism. Since the damage doesn't travel either, it would be something like teleportation. You couldn't even call NLF with the amount of force that is being exerted on him, because he isn't redirecting the force, he is only redirecting the damage they do, which is not something you can quantify

That is an analogy not a mechanism. A mechanism would be an explanation of how something works. We don't actually know how it works we know at most that it behaves like something similar.

Also, if he is only redirecting the damage than he is bound to the same kind of feats like Regenerationn users. If he wants to transfer the damage from someone smashing his head, he will need feats of someone having smashed his head and recovering from that, because logically the damage needs to happen before he can transfer it.

And that is the problem. He doesn't have such feats. He usually only took unnoticable damage, except for Scar Dead where he took a few wounds. That's all. Damage Transfer on the level of Mid-Low Regenerationn.

If an attack is so powerful that it instantly vaporizes his head there is nothing suggesting that he can transfer the damage before just being permanently dead.

It also doesn't solve the speed issue, as you can still kill him before his ability gets to activate.

Why would he push away damage at a certain rate rather than instantly? Seems a bit weird to assume he "sends" the damage rather than instantly transferr it.

Because he has no feats of doing it instantly and the burden of proof is entirely on you. That's why.

Also, it isn't weird by any means. Even skills that automatically react to things do so finitely fast.

To clarify: What happens in Hinokage's case if we think of encounter as damage transferral is: Hinokage hits Gagamaru -> Gagamaru receives damage -> Gagamaru doesn't die instantly from the damage -> Encounter activates -> Gagamaru's wounds are healed.

What can happen for a way faster opponent: Opponent delivers strike -> Encounter starts to react, but has finite reaction time -> Opponent delivers a lot more strikes before Encounter started its effect -> Gagamaru is dead -> As Gagamaru is dead Encounter doesn't work anymore (not all dead people have skills)

What can happens for a way stronger opponent: Opponent delivers strike -> Gagamaru's head is vaporized -> Encounter never activates in response to the damage, because Gagamaru is already dead

Heck, considering again that Encounter can not be assumed to heal any degree of damage without feats, if someone rips his arm off Encounter might not even reverse that, unless it starts healing the damage before the arm is properly separated.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

I might want to bring up the fact that the afterlife exists in Medaka Box, and people have their skills there.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Ajimu mentioned that there is no afterlife in Medaka Box normally. Kumagawa and herself are exceptions not the rule.

 

[The_King_of_Prudence]

It still affects Medaka.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It is kinda both. Minus in general are supposed to be unexplainable, but his body working like a portal for damage explains how it works. While he isn't literally a portal, him teleporting damage onto other objects and people is a clear mechanism.

We don't use that standard for other damage transfer users. Applying this kind of double standard for a single verse clearly goes against what this wiki is about. If you want to say that damage transfer should be bound by the same rules as Regenerationn, then go make a CRT to get general policy changed. And beside that point, it is already confirmed he can transfer death, so he still goes basically as far up as he would otherwise, since I don't think anyone is claiming be could reflect existence erasure.

The damage is being transferred away instantly, so we wouldn't see what his wounds would be anyway. It is also already confirmed he can push away death, and we would never see his wounds since they move away at the same instant they are inflicted. Regardless, he can push away his death, so that would be the equivalent of low godly. That being said, calling damage transfer on the same standard as Regenerationn is a false equivalence at best, at least until policy changes.

He can push away death, so problem solved.

The ability is seemingly instant and automatic.

 

[Agnaa]

I disagree with the note being removed, and hence want it re-added (with MCB changed to CB since Medaka Box isn't 8-A any more).

A tiny semantic change with how we categorize the ability doesn't mean it can now reflect universal attacks at MFTL+ speeds. Even if Damage Transferal is usually offensive hax, in this case it's used in a purely defensive manner and should be treated by the same regulations.

Also, going back through the relevant chapters, I can't see the "portal" analogy anywhere.

 

[Iapitus_The_Impaler]

It isn't reflecting anything. What do you mean? It isn't purely defensive by any means. He used it for attack purposes, and although Nisio seems to portray it as defensive, it is an offensive ability at heart by the way we regard it on this wiki. No other damage transfer user is regarded this way so this should be no different.

 

[Agnaa]

It is reflecting sorta by definition, stopping it from being in one place and moving it to another. Being able to use a reflection ability to deal damage doesn't stop it from being a reflection ability.

So you're telling me that there's other damage transfer users that are immune to universal MFTL+ attacks despite only having feats much lower?

Also I edited something into my earlier post, btw.

 

[Antvasima]

Should I re-open the Gagamaru Chougasaki page so you or DontTalkDT can re-add the note?