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Fullmetal Alchemist Revision - Part 1, Abilities
- Thread starter Armorchompy
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I'd have to disagree with this, if someone who's an expert on a certain fields makes a statement it's most likely true. However you do have a point on the body.
I also have a few things, such as Roy stating that he incinerated Lust, which is furthered by him feeling the fat getting sticky on his lips.
Lust also did recover from having her body dusted after Roy pulled out her Stone, and created an entirely new body from the Stone.
This go me strikes me as regeneration better than Low-High imo. She had her body dusted and recovered from the Stone using souls.
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- #43
Not really, when it's in a quick, casual conversation like that and he's talking to people who aren't experts in... burning people to death... it would make sense for him to emphasize stuff.
Incinerating part of her does not mean he incinerated the whole body. Not only that, but the Philosopher Stone would not give off any smell to begin with, and might be buried in the rubble, so he could not really tell for sure. Keep in mind they were not looking at the explosion when it went off, so they would not be able to tell.
That is the Regen feat I am using for their rating, High-Mid cause the Stone is solid-ish.
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Fair enough.
This part I have to disagree with. It's never stated nor implied that only a portion of her body was incinerated, quite the contrary actually. Roy states that whenever people are incinerated the fat from their bodies disappears into the air. And with the surface area of her's, her entire body would have been engulfed in these flames.
Oh yeah no, her Stone definitely survived, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that she regenerated her body from the Stone itself. It should also be noted that the Stone has been melted by Lava, whereas Roy's Flame Alchemy was shown to vaporize steel in Brotherhood. (Whatever Episode whenever they had the flashback to Maria's staged death, Roy removed her steel bracelet and vaporized it.) and vaporizing metal requires a much hotter temperature than the temperature of lava.
The Stone survived whenever Father melted it down, as he was still able to absorb it despite the Stone being melted by lava. (Episode whenever Father melted Greed.)
This is a fair point, however this goes against Roy feeling the Sticky from the vaporized fat from Lust's body.
Ehhh the Stone can take many forms, it can range from a liquid to a solid, especially depending on how its made. Kimblee's was solid, Dr Marco's was a liquid. It can range from a solid, to a liquid to even a powder.
I believe the best solution here would be "At Least High-Mid, likely Low-High." (The Philosophers Stone can range from a semi-solid, to a liquid to a powder.)
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Kind of feels like that stretches the definition of "Natural" Weaponry.
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- #47
When flesh is incinerated, it gives off a certain smell because of the fat. That does not mean in any way that every square inch of her body was destroyed. Especially since we see Lust get completely enveloped by flames in the next chapter and she is not completely vaporized every time.
We agree on this point- hell we see Lust doing the same on-screen later on. There is still absolutely no evidence the stone was liquefied.
Father's lava probably is not mundane at all considering it could get past Greed's 7-C shield. Not only that but Alchemy is not a UES, anything you make is as strong as you make it. So the heat of a burst of fire focused on an incredibly small surface area would not scale to that of a gas explosion, especially one caused by other means. We can tell because Lust's whole body is visibly not completely incinerated when Roy attacks her over and over again to kill her in the next chapter.
But Greed did not regenerate from it.
... Yeah but, you don't need to incinerate the whole thing to feel the smell of the fat.
I am aware of that, it's in the OP, but the Stones that we see Father producing from his body are only slightly gelatinous, which I don't think qualifies for Low-High. Plus, we literally see that at least Lust and Envy's stones are pretty tangible, hers bounces off the ground when she dies (and cracks) while Envy is able to rip his out of his own body, although you can see small ripples on its surface when he touches it.
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- #48
I'm not sure how we count built-in but not inherent weaponry, Natural Weaponry is a little not well defined on that. I'll just specify it in Cyborgization.
By the way, I ended up removing Ed's Social Influencing, thinking of it it was a little bit of a stretch.
Gonna tag @Theglassman12 since he had other complaints, I'd like any debate to happen fairly quickly if possible.
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As Armor said, the page itself is rather vague about it so I felt it was acceptable to ask.
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I am glad someone is working on FMA. Most of it looks pretty good, so nice work.
From what points I noticed after skimming through the thread, I agree with Glass on the bullets thing. It is just them bouncing off him because his metal is durable enough, not because of an ability or something.
From what points I noticed after skimming through the thread, I agree with Glass on the bullets thing. It is just them bouncing off him because his metal is durable enough, not because of an ability or something.
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- #51
It also happens with Father who I would expect to be able to pierce Alphonse no problem. But eh, I'm not attached to it
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I'll comment again soon.
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I still don't exactly see limited attack reflection for Al as that's just a natural thing for bullets reacting to metal where they ricochet. The rest I can see where you're coming from with the abilities so I'll concede on those.
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i removed it. all that's left here is ginsama's arguments and someone checking out my calcs
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I'm aware, but the body is stated to have been completely incinerated, and the definition of incinerated is to burn to ashes. However your next point is completely fair, she did take multiple point blank strikes from an enraged Roy, although to be first in this case he used an outside source, that being gas. But yeah I see the point your making here, I can concede on that.
My argument was never that the stone got liquidated, doing that is essentially impossible due to it's well, complex make-up.
Didn't Greed like tank that Lava with his shield? Might be mistaken, I'll double check.
Forgive me for asking, what's a UES? I'm honestly unfamiliar with that term. I don't recall saying Alchemy is all powerful.
Which is what I'm saying, that particular attack was done via an outside source I.E volatile gas so Roy wouldn't scale. What I'm saying is that gas explosion should be significantly higher than what Roy is capable of doing via Flame Alchemy.
I never said he did, what I said was that the stone was melted and even that didn't "permanently." kill Greed. Greed is a weird one as well, since he's seen as literally just a soul in his true form unlike his other siblings barring Pride.
It's stated to be the whole thing. And her body isn't shown to have survived in the manga, however in Brotherhood she's just shown burnt so I'll concede here.
Even if it's only semi fluid then I think that's still enough for at least a possibly imo. Especially given that you gotta remember, Marco never stated that only his stone can take many forms, it was a statement about the stones in general.
Also I think if the stone were a "solid." it wouldn't be able to house intangible souls, and it would be very easy to Fragment. (We should really give the Stones themselves durability ratings since they've been shown to be more durable than most of the Homunculi's bodies.
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Universal Energy System, term is new-ish but basically it's stuff like characters scaling to the creation of stuff like storms and the like because of their power system working like that. Stuff like, uhhh, Power Stars in Mario, or at least that is how they are currently considered.
Why should it be? Gas explosions are barely 9-B while even without scaling Roy has caused 9-A+ explosions. And mind you, all of Roy's fire manip is technically causing gas explosions in the first place.
That applies to every homunculus (bar Wrath but Wrath isn't really like the others), Father later resurrects Gluttony in the same way. But even then that would not be Low-High regen, just Low-High immortality. Which, fair point, could be a thing.
Again, proof would be required that the stones can shift between these forms when suffering physical damage, that should not be the default assumption.
??? All stones house souls lol, including solid ones. And in FMA souls can be bound to physical objects no problem, see Alphonse. As for it being easy to break, that is a durability thing.
Honestly I don't know if any of those showings are straightforward enough for me to believe them 100%
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@DemonGodMitchAubin @DMUA @KieranH10 @Psychomaster35
Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following calculation blogs, and then tell us here, please?
vsbattles.fandom.com
vsbattles.fandom.com
Would any of you be willing to evaluate the following calculation blogs, and then tell us here, please?
Fullmetal Alchemist - List of Feats 1
vsbattles.fandom.com
Fullmetal Alchemist - List of Feats 2
vsbattles.fandom.com
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Thank you very much. Take your time of course. Oh, and I fixed the mistake in the first one.
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First of all, I'm still elaborating on that term and working on the draft for a different thread. But I prefer to say "Universal Power Source" as opposed to "Universal Energy System" and I have elaborated the difference between Universal Power Source and "Semi-Universal Power Source" that former is something that does scale to physical attacks where as the latter is a term used that would scale to multiple powers just leaves out striking strength and what not outside of power scaling. Ki from Dragon Ball, Chakra from Naruto, and Reiki/Maki from Yu Yu Hakusho would be the former, but things like Quirks from MHA and Probably Chi from Avatar would more likely be the latter. Also, it has less to do with the substance of it being "A pool of energy" Vs a McGuffin Artifact Vs an Abstract concept Vs Being Digital Data Vs Being a Magic casting system Vs Being a McGuffin Artifact; those have common distinctions but not the parts relevant. And more to do whether or not it's been shown to be used to amplify physical powers alongside other supernatural power sources.
Reason I prefer Universal Power Source as opposed to Universal Energy system implies it has to be Ki/Chakra/Pool of Energy to qualify. Though, iirc, Alchemy is only the Semi-Universal part; scaling to most directions of energy transmutation, but physical strikes and durability is the only thing not noticeably amped linearly. I'd scale an Alchemists waterbending to their firebending and what not their punches and kicks.
Reason I prefer Universal Power Source as opposed to Universal Energy system implies it has to be Ki/Chakra/Pool of Energy to qualify. Though, iirc, Alchemy is only the Semi-Universal part; scaling to most directions of energy transmutation, but physical strikes and durability is the only thing not noticeably amped linearly. I'd scale an Alchemists waterbending to their firebending and what not their punches and kicks.
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Actually one for the Stones already exist, to a certain degree. This is more of a universal power source, but one must remember what powers the Stones to begin with, souls. The more souls the Stones contain the stronger they become, and the stones use said souls as a form of energy to "bypass." the already set laws of Equivalent Exchange.
That depends on the type of gas explosion first of all, not all of them are 9-B. A lot of gases can produce much more than 9-B energy, and that was a gas leak. Gas leaks typically are capable of blowing up entire buildings.
Envy isn't like the others as well, as his true form isn't that of a soul but rather some Chernobyl lizard rather than a soul lol. Fair point on the immortality, what would we classify that as?
Dr Marco's scan outright states the stones can take many forms. I'm still entirely against the concept of the stone being considered or treated as a solid.
I never said that they don't have souls in them? What I said was that if they were truly solid, then fitting hundreds or thousands of intangible souls inside them would be impossible. The Soul Attachment technique is different from the process of how Stones are made, one requires you to visit the Truth while the other skips that step entirely.
Fair.
Which in particular?
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I also should have mentioned, LordGinSama is also raising some good points.
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Yeah but you can't use it to empower your attacks at will, if you make a small rock with Alchemy it's gonna be 10-C even if you have the ability to create 8-C structures with it. Regardless, this is secondary.
Not really, they set them on fire and shit but they won't destroy them, and either way that would take way more gas than Mustang could have mad,e most of the energy in a gas explosion is not AP.
Type 2 and 3 Immortality. Also, Envy probably still existed as a soul in the stone, we see that Pride simultaneously exists as a soul in the stone and as a newborn child.
Yes, they can take various forms, but as far as we've seen all the ones in the Homunculi are gelatinous, and we don't know how they can change forms. Maybe they're just created one way and can't change at all afterwards, or requires another alchemical transmutation to make them do it, I don't think we should assume that if liquefied or pulverized they will continue working as usual, especially when we see Greed unable to regenerate from his Stone once it's liquefied.
I'm not sure what this has to do with their tangibility, though? Them being liquid or powders wouldn't change matters.
Also, visiting Truth is not necessary for creating something like Alphonse, Barry and the Slicer Bros show us this and the Mannequins were also created by binding souls to artificial bodies.
None in particular, the lack of explicit proof is the issue for me, there's never a moment where someone attempts to destroy a PStone and fails, or that someone points out how durable they are. The only things that would lead us to the conclusion that PStones are particularly durable are AOE attacks not destroying them, unless I'm forgetting anything?
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No, I don't think that is the case actually. Alchemy is an issue of skill and specialization, not of the energy any Alchemist can draw from, in fact they all draw from the same source, the souls running under the ground of Amestris (Minus Xing Alchemists which all pull from a different one which is the Dragon's Pulse, and Philosopher Stone users obviously have their own personal source), what separates Alchemists from each other is specifically their skill in performing Transmutations, and those Transmutations don't have anything supernatural about them past their creation, a smaller explosion will be weaker than a bigger one even if, say, Mustang is the one performing both of them (Envy points it out I believe). And Alchemists all have more or less prowess in specific fields, for example Mustang remarks that he is pretty bad at healing.
Also, the transmutation of actual energy is never used in an offensive form by anyone except Father in his final form, who is one step away from a reality warper and definitely not a normal alchemist. Makes you wonder if you could scale him to his creation though. You can maybe make an argument from PhilStones but even then knowledge and skill are still the main factor there, it's just the hard limit that Equivalent Exchange causes is removed now.
Keep in mind that Transmutations happen on the atomic level so if Alchemy were a Universal Power Source, basically any alchemist would be Tier 7/6 since the creation would scale to the destruction.
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That would actually depend on what the martial of the rock is and how dense it is. But even then, The Stone boosts Alchemy to an unimaginable degree, such as Kimblee's explosion Alchemy. Alphonse got a boost with it as well, his Alchemy couldn't defend or keep up with Pride till he got the Stone.
Secondary how?
.... A Gas Leak is literally one of the most explosives things that can really happen to a Building. Most gases when exposed to fire don't just "burn." there's typically a very large explosion involved hence why they evacuate the building. Literally look up any gas leak explosion and you'll see what I'm talking about.
the fire is actually pretty minor, we can put out a fire, we can't really put out explosions however.
Which is my point, I think your getting confused on some of these points. My point was that due to an outside source that particular explosion was probably stronger than most of his other explosions.
Most of the energy in a gas explosion should definitely be considered AP. Although this is semantics more than anything else at this point since it's irrelevant in the long run of what we're talking about.
I'm fine with that.
"Probably." =/= certainly. We never see Envy as a soul, and his true form is inherently different than Pride and the rest of the siblings.
This does remind me, shouldn't the Stones have Soul and Body Possesion? Given that once they go into the bloodstream they can directly control whoever they enter.
Then I'd settle on a "At Least High-Mid, likely far higher." with a note at the end of the page with an explanation since the Stones have been shown to be very complex.
Also Greed was directly absorbed by Father right afterwards so it's not like he really had the chance to regenerate. Iirc Wrath also emptied a lot of his souls during that fight, along with Izumi and Ed.
How would a tangible substance somehow hold and house intangible substances? The souls should just leave if that's the case.
Iirc Barry and the Slicers were never shown as to how they ended up that way. Pretty sure they were experiments, and the Mannequins were made by attaching souls via the Stone. The Stone skips the step of visiting the Truth.
They survive whenever the body is destroyed, so the stones are significantly more durable than the body.
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Also isn't it stated that Alchemy utilizes the energy of the Earth itself?
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Alright.
Not really. For what regards the stone a biological being is a biological being, and all Homunculi are born from splinters of Father's personality so it would not make much sense if they had different physiologies.
I think? Might be
We still have no actual evidence that the stones would would still be effective in that state, so most I could settle on is At least High-Mid, possibly High-Low.
True
NPI. Being liquid would not help it in any way in this regard anyway. Plus, small correction, the souls are not held in the Stone, the Stone is the souls, but condensed.
They bound their souls to armors. The method isn't really important beyond that. In fact Alchemy as a whole has NPI and the ability to interact with souls, if only in specific cases.
That is not necessary, the body could also be absorbing part of the attack before it reaches the stones. An 8-C blast isn't going to be as strong after making its way through like twenty cm of 8-C flesh
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That ends up being a lie, Western alchemy uses the souls trapped underneath Amestris. But yeah, that's how Eastern alchemy works kinda, I mentioned that when I said that all normal alchemists draw from the same source. So it is technically a Universal Power Source but it cannot be used to do the things that most UES/UPS are considered to be able to on this site.
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Yeah I agree with everything with what you said there. Very good analysis!
Just make sure to update the OP with everything that we agreed upon.
tbh we also need some new renders. Father's page is the only page that really looks smexy.
Just make sure to update the OP with everything that we agreed upon.
tbh we also need some new renders. Father's page is the only page that really looks smexy.
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Just so I'm sure, that's Type 2 and possibly High-Low, right?
Yeah some rendering has to be done, the pages are generally a little crusty.
Also I assume nobody minds if I add Ice Manip to the Alchemy page because of the guy from the FMAB ep1? Pretty blatant lol
Yeah some rendering has to be done, the pages are generally a little crusty.
Also I assume nobody minds if I add Ice Manip to the Alchemy page because of the guy from the FMAB ep1? Pretty blatant lol
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So that's what what I have often referred to as "Semi-Universal" Power Source.
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Yeah, basically just energy you draw from which gives you nothing else VSBW-wise.
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Alright so I rewatched EP 1 of Brotherhood, here are a few quick and easy additions:
- Ice Manipulation, Water Manipulation and Temperature Manipulation: Isaac McDougal can control water and rapidly alter its temperature, which also allows him to create ice as well as instantly kill people by freezing or boiling the blood in their veins.
- Smoke Manipulation and Explosion Manipulation: McDougal can create smokescreens with steam, and even cause explosions with it.
- Blood Manipulation: McDougal can control his blood as a last-resort technique.
- Preparation: Isaac McDougal planted several transmutation circles around Central City to freeze its headquarters with Alchemy.
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