Frieza's 4-C rating.

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Do you have a suggestion for how to properly scale the characters?

 

[Golden_Void]

being 44x base is specified by calc, not in-universe. There isn't a canon multiplier that would really contradict High 4-C Perfect Cell becoming 4-B Super Perfect Cell.

This.

And regurgitating 18 does make it more impressive since he's no longer perfect. He can only validly say he's seriously injured because he's still the same creature, just with a different form.

 

[ByAsura]

No, he was in the same form, not just the state of being at the time he said that, hell, he was even still Bulked Up like Grade 3. He was still alive enough to hold 18 for a while. It's not more impressive, especially since — for the 1000th time — he was still intact.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Azathoth
Do you have a suggestion for how to properly scale the characters?

Cell Saga specifically? Most relevant fighters would likely be High 4-C, with SSJ2 Gohan and SPC being 4-B, which is similar to what we've been doing, up until now.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Yes, he made a big deal, but we use calcs and scaling here. Plus, everyone makes a big deal about planet busting, does that mean they're only planet level?

"I'm going to destroy the planet" =/= "I have gathered enough power to destroy the planet"

"I'm going to destroy the solar system" =/= "I have gathered enough power to destroy the solar system"

These two statements are not the same thing.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

I was thinking a list of all scaling from Frieza to Super Perfect Cell.

 

[ByAsura]

Ok, i see your point. It still makes no sense for the gap to be Large Star+ to 44x baseline Solar System (Only for goku and Gohan though).

Also, if you couldn't tell, i'm now advocating for it.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

@Ant

Dunno. I'd need to think. There isn't a super clear-cut solution without making some estimates.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

Ok, i see your point. It still makes no sense for the gap to be Large Star+ to 44x baseline Solar System (Only for goku and Gohan though).
Also, if you couldn't tell, i'm now advocating for it.

Don't really see why that doesn't make sense. Massive gaps are closed very frequently in this series, and the one comparison we have between a 4-B character (SSJ2 Gohan) and someone who isn't SPC is Gohan performing a casual one-shot on Perfect Cell. There isn't much to support anyone before SPC being 4-B, which is even what's implied by his statement.

 

[Golden_Void]

Gohan toying with Perfect Cell + beating SPC with only half of his power and one arm = obviously nobody under SPC is 4-B

As far as scaling from Frieza to Cell, the easy part is we only have to figure out the androids and then drop everybody else in.

 

[Antvasima]

@Azathoth

Okay. No problem.

 

[AKM sama]

TL;DR

1. We agreed on downgrading 100% Freeza to "At least Low 4-C" , I presume.

2. Goku, Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo (Android saga) would be downgraded to 4-C.

3. Androids 17 & 18 and Piccolo(after fusing with Kami) = ???

4. Imperfect Cell, Android 16 and other stronger High 4-Cs and 4-Bs would stay the same.

All we need to do is check point 3 now.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

I still find it pretty iffy to upgrade characters to high 4-C from a single high 5-A feat,and then to 4-B via statement.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

4-B via a consistent and highly supported statement by every source in the franchise? Sounds legit to me.

 

[Kepekley23]

SSJ Gohan can't possibly be twice as weak as his Cell Saga self. He was giving Dabura a good fight, and Dabura is stronger than Suppressed Cell

 

[Dzhindzholia]

^But all of this happens in every verse and there we give them only at least for doing that.

"4-B via a consistent and highly supported statement by every source in the franchise? Sounds legit to me."

Who cares about this statement when the best feat is high5-A (high end)?And Cell is not even baseline.

Mundus in DMC created a universe,author confirmed it but i don't see 3-A Mundus.

 

[Dark649]

Drop the Devil May Cry subject, Dzhin. We are placing them between Frieza and Cell feats, which are 100% proven true, unlike Mundus.

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"Mundus in DMC created a universe,author confirmed it but i don't see 3-A Mundus."

Except he didn't? Matt already debunked that. And you know our rules regarding Twitter messages being used to confirm feats. Not a sound comparison when everything else in franchise consistently confirm the Solar System statement as it is used in basically everything SPC is in. Far more consistent than Mundus.

"Who cares about this statement when the best feat is high5-A (high end)?"

Except considering Power Boosts and such, it's not inconsistent at all.

 

[Kepekley23]

Cell being a Solar System buster is confirmed by every single angle or source there is.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

"Matt already debunked that."

How can you debunk authors statements?

 

[Dzhindzholia]

"We are placing them between Frieza and Cell feats, which are 100% proven true, unlike Mundus."

But this is how they are now.What is going to change?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

"How can you debunk authors statements?"

Read the DMC Downgrade and you'll see how. Especially when Author Statements contradict the series as well. This isn't a DMC thread, so don't derail this into a Mundus discussion.

 

[Dark649]

Dzhin:

- Because the author was being constantly annoyed, and is know to troll his fans if needed. We also do not use author statements. Don't derail further the thread.

- We are placing them at little below for more consistence.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

^I brought Mundus as an example,i am not indended to start a DMC revision.

 

[Kepekley23]

In fact, the Boo Saga as a whole has absurdly bad powerscaling. Shin seeing SSJ2 Gohan is retconned, Dabura is said to be "way stronger" than Cell was, despite the fact he was being matched by a weakened SSJ Gohan who was said to be "far weaker" than he was 7 years ago...

 

[Dark649]

I agree with Kep. The only thing we know about Dabura is that he oneshotted Kibito [Who can't barely lift the Z-sword] and was said to be probably at the same level to Cell by Goku, who did not said which Cell was and Toriyama never specified which form Gohan was using:

Note 1: We know that Gohan was weaker in the Buu Saga since he did not trained because he wanted to live a normal life and dislikes fighting, which caused Vegeta to get angry at him .

Note 2: In the Cell Saga, MSS Gohan surpassed MSS Goku, who fought a supressed Perfect Cell. After powering up, Cell started to easily beat up and hold Gohan. [Cell powered up fully only against SS2 Gohan, who was wrecking him]

 

[AKM sama]

@Dz

Can we please not derail the thread just when it's about to be concluded, with "4-B Cell" talks?

@All

What do you think about 17, 18 and Kamiccolo(pre RoSaT)?

 

[Dzhindzholia]

"Can we please not derail the thread just when it's about to be concluded, with "4-B Cell" talks?"

Maby you should read whole sentences and understand why i brought him up.I'll do that again if needed.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

@Dz
Can we please not derail the thread just when it's about to be concluded, with "4-B Cell" talks?

@All

What do you think about 17, 18 and Kamiccolo(pre RoSaT)?

I personally believe that their ratings should stay where they are.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

^But all of this happens in every verse and there we give them only at least for doing that.
"4-B via a consistent and highly supported statement by every source in the franchise? Sounds legit to me."

Who cares about this statement when the best feat is high5-A (high end)?And Cell is not even baseline.

Mundus in DMC created a universe,author confirmed it but i don't see 3-A Mundus.

Your arguements are pretty ludicrous, IMO, when thinking of the bigger picture and how much stronger these characters are compared to Freeza's casual High 5-A feat. The ratings for Kamiccolo, the Androids and the FPSSJs are fine as they are. And Cell's 44x baseline rating is set in stone. I really get the feeling you didn't even read Cell's calcs at all, nor did you even look through the various other media that support and even show the implied feat, including official guide books.

As well, DMC was a very questionable author statement--Cell's was in-character, in a situation where Cell had no reason to lie or puff himself up. He could have just said he was going to destroy just the Earth, and it would have had the same emotional impact on Gohan and the others. It isn't just hyperbole. One really starts to get the impression that you want to downgrade them just for the sake of downgrading them.

 

[Dzhindzholia]

"And Cell's 44x baseline rating is set in stone. I really get the feeling you didn't even read Cell's calcs at all, nor did you even look through the various other media that support and even show the implied feat, including official guide books."

Bruh,I read the thread and a lot of comment on that subject.

I would appreciate if you stop doing stupid assumptations about me.

 

[Dark649]

What i suggest:

First Form Frieza: High 5-A+.

Second, Third and Final Form Frieza: Low 4-C.

75-100% Final Frieza: At least Low 4-C.

SS Trunks: 4-C.

Android 18 and onwards: High 4-C.

MSS Goku: At least High 4-C.

Full Power Perfect Cell: At least High 4-C.

Super Perfect Cell: 4-B.

 

[Overlord775]

seems ok

until the tier 4 revisions happen and we have to change it all again

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

There are '''more''' Tier 4 revisions?

 

[Overlord775]

There are more Tier 4 revisions?

this revision

 

[Antvasima]

What do the other staff members think about Dark649's suggestion?

 

[Kepekley23]

Looks good enough.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I also think that it seems fine to use.

 

[Kaltias]

I don't think that Full Power Perfect Cell should have the "likely higher".

Other than that looks fine

 

[Dark649]

Kaltias. The likely higher is optional for me [It was due the Cell Buff form he used against SS2, which was considerably above everyone alse]. The tier 4 revision Overlord brought should be discussed again with the other calc group members, then wait for the staff to be ready if accepted.